Shutting down a democracy

[C1ay]

Do we write a new doctrine and manifest it into existence?

 

No, all we can do is use Constitutional Amendments to add to the Constitution or repeal portions of it. Amendment 21 was used to repeal Amendment 18 for example.

[Queso]

No, all we can do is use Constitutional Amendments to add to the Constitution or repeal portions of it. Amendment 21 was used to repeal Amendment 18 for example.

 

So let's make a new amendment that would force the entire system to swallow this upgrade pill document.

[Kayra]

How about if you kept the government, and threw out all laws every decade or so.

 

The main problem with every legal system in existence is the accumulation of its own precedence.

 

The politicians and lawyers intent on ill hide or couch their actions in the complexities of the legal system and this would remove most of that camouflage

 

Result of removing all laws....

 

All precedence would disappear.

Loopholes would be closed on the next iteration of the law.

Vast simplification of the law would be required under such a constraint

 

A base set of laws would evolve that meet the current needs of the people and agreed with the constitution. Each of these could be reviewed and re-instated each time.

 

This would be a MONSTEROUS job the first time, but by the 5th iteration or so it would come into focus.

[C1ay]

So let's make a new amendment that would force the entire system to swallow this upgrade pill document.

 

There's not a whole lot wrong with the one we have except for enforcement. The other single largest problem is people not voting at all or repeatedly voting to give some miscreant yet another term. The bottom line is the people actually doing something instead of simply bitching about it incessantly.

[Queso]

There's not a whole lot wrong with the one we have except for enforcement. The other single largest problem is people not voting at all or repeatedly voting to give some miscreant yet another term. The bottom line is the people actually doing something instead of simply bitching about it incessantly.

 

I know there "isn't a whole lot wrong with the one we have now"

but the fact is it needs an upgrade.

It think it needs a new doctrine entitled something like "Millenium Declaration"

It's like renewing the vows, and it gives something the government and the people to chew on, to think about, and all adapt to.

It would be a document stating the realization that war is unnecessary, costly, deadly, stupid.

It would be a new freedom document. Up to date. Loved.

[REASON]

There's not a whole lot wrong with the one we have except for enforcement. The other single largest problem is people not voting at all or repeatedly voting to give some miscreant yet another term. The bottom line is the people actually doing something instead of simply bitching about it incessantly.

 

How does it become known that something needs to be done if there aren't a bunch of people incessantly bitching, or complaining, or doing research and writing articles or books? The way I see it, with this current regime, there just isn't enough bitching going on.

 

Complacency, denial, ignorance, rejection of ideas or only seeking reinforcing ideas, avoidance, party loyalty before country, etc., are all ways in which people abdicate their responsibility as citizen these days. People just don't want to face a tough reality. Particularly the people who, deep down, feel some complicity and shame for what's going on with our government, our economy, and our status in the world as a result of where they've fervently dedicated their support. You can usually tell who they are because they are the most defensive when confronted with the unpleasant realities that have been perpetrated by this administation.

 

However, your point is not lost on me.

 

I have a quote posted on my office wall which reads:

 

No democracy can work when people take their responsibility as citizen so lightly as to be totally ignorant. - Paul Craig Roberts

 

His point is not lost on me either.

[C1ay]

I know there "isn't a whole lot wrong with the one we have now"

but the fact is it needs an upgrade.

 

Yep. It isn't going to happen until we elect people that effect that action though.

 

It would be a document stating the realization that war is unnecessary, costly, deadly, stupid.

 

In an ideal world that would be true but I think, for example, the first Gulf War was necessary when Iraq sought to conquer and overthrow Kuwait. Remember, all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. There comes a time with doing nothing is costly, deadly and stupid :confused:

[C1ay]

How does it become known that something needs to be done if there aren't a bunch of people incessantly bitching, or complaining, or doing research and writing articles or books? The way I see it, with this current regime, there just isn't enough bitching going on.

 

There's nothing wrong with that bunch of people bitching and complaining as long as they do something that actually accomplishes something. Bitching alone doesn't.

[REASON]

There's nothing wrong with that bunch of people bitching and complaining as long as they do something that actually accomplishes something. Bitching alone doesn't.

 

I agree. Although I would say that at a minimum, bitching or complaining can be a way of making others aware of issues or points of view that they previously may not have been aware of. But probably not the most effective way.

 

In an ideal world that would be true but I think, for example, the first Gulf War was necessary when Iraq sought to conquer and overthrow Kuwait. Remember, all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. There comes a time with doing nothing is costly, deadly and stupid.

 

I believe there is truth in this statement. Unfortunately, our current involvement in Iraq doesn't fit this prescription. If Sadam's evil was in seeking to conquer and overthrow Kuwait, than our desire to conquer and overthrow Iraq could just as easily be construed as evil. Particularly considering the well documented manipulation that was used to generate support for our invasion. This is a major contributing factor in the resistance movement in Iraq and has served as a "cause celebre" for al Qa'ida, thus yielding the opposite of the desired effect.

 

It is this type of behavior and policy making that leads people to talk about change in government. And we are fortunate that we have the ability to stand up and be counted with our vote, and to effect the type of change we want (or at least something better, which shouldn't be difficult to achieve).

 

This is where it may be beneficial for someone like Orbsycli to reconsider their lack of involvement with elections. I believe it is important not to take for granted such a right and a power in our society that many throughout the world and throughout history haven't had.

[Queso]

the presidential elections are rigged.

sure I'll vote for prop 420

but not for idiot puppet #3

[REASON]

the presidential elections are rigged.

sure I'll vote for prop 420

but not for idiot puppet #3

 

:lol: That's funny. I understand your concern.

 

But the rigging expects a typical percentage of voters and can be overwhelmed with a little more involvement. :shrug:

[Qfwfq]

I have a choice to stay out of it, or influence it any way that I can.

Obviously it's your choice sir. You have every right to choose the best or the worst. I don't think a revolution has become necessary quite yet in the US and I sure hope it won't, you can be one of those who concurs to avoid it. Not voting isn't much help, a deliberate boycott of the Iranian elections brought Ahmadinejad to power. You allowed Bush to come up two terms in a row, don't complain about Bush if you didn't vote against him.

 

If you and many of your fellow citizens don't like the current parties, there's an answer to that but perhaps it's too late for the next presidential election. In the mean time, what comes first, the chicken or the egg?

[Queso]

I'm almost 20 years old. When bush was elected I was 12ish. Back then my dad owned a business and was Rush Limboughs fellow servent. Ah those days were confusing.

I didn't allow that guy to do anything. Who did? I don't know. God did!

I just came into existence like the chicken and the egg and saw how screwed up their **** is!

AND HEY

MAN

Stop mis interpreting me! Maybe it's because you live in Italy, and I live in america, but STILL- I never said anything about "revolution"

 

I see it like an alkaloid fitting into a receptor site.

This alkaloid that will be my future document contains information not to rewrite, but to alter.

It's something that would even have it's own day of celebration. To remind everyone about what it means to be a free human being on earth in the 21st century. (Not 1776!)

[Qfwfq]

I'm almost 20 years old. When bush was elected I was 12ish.

Sorry man, I forgot you weren't of age the last time, but still if you don't vote this time you'll have little ground to stand on. You're one of those who could do something about it, though you'll need to choose people with the competence to govern your country; that's the thing to do instead of fleeing, which is what could end up making a revolution become necessary.

 

Don't vote, and you allow the choice of candidates to become ever lousier. That's the chicken and egg matter and being a new voter isn't a reason to just put the blame on "them" without doing anything.

 

Since you mention me being here in Italy, I can tell you I became a voter when things here had long been in a terrible state, due to the cold war. I voted though! Badly at first, then, when a lot of folks were trying to improve things, in came Berlusconi to screw things up worse. I voted against him at first moderately and then more extremely.

 

I see it like an alkaloid fitting into a receptor site.

This alkaloid that will be my future document contains information not to rewrite, but to alter.

It's something that would even have it's own day of celebration. To remind everyone about what it means to be a free human being on earth in the 21st century. (Not 1776!)

If you're wanting to campaign for improving the US constitution, good idea, only advice I can give you is that there are some perdy good ones around, only not all are written in English. You'll meet with a lot of howls if you make it look too much like a replacement or even just a radical change. Still, I think a lot of your fellow citizens should change their attitude about their constitution a little bit. :shrug:

[C1ay]

but not for idiot puppet #3

 

But vote for someone, even if you know that someone cannot or will not win. It let's the winner know what percentage of the people support that person's ideology even if they didn't win. That alone can cause a far left or far right winner to govern from a more centrist perspective.

 

Imagine if only 10% of the population showed up to vote and they all voted for the same candidate. Would that communicate to that winning candidate that the other 90% of the population has given them a blank check to do what the 10% voted for since they didn't vote against him/her?

 

VOTE, Win or lose it matters!

[Queso]

I see how voting against the guy who is obviously the heir to the throne (you can always tell, even if they split it into 2) could throw off the balance of the WINNER OF THE GAME! (Ahem, presidency)

 

I think the elections are rigged, though. Remember what happened last time?

Therein lies my abstraction.

[C1ay]

I think the elections are rigged, though. Remember what happened last time?

 

One thing you have to remember about Presidential elections. We do not have "an" election for President, we have fifty. Each State holds it's own elections for deciding how it's electoral college members will vote. It is also important to note that it is up to each State to decide how they want to choose electors. They are not required to have a poll. The legislature of a State could have the Governor draw straws if they wished. While the outcomes seem unusual at times I do not think it is reasonable to think all 50 elections are rigged. I personally don't think any of them are by the candidates. I do believe some of their supporters try to sway them with dishonest measures.