Can a Christian be atheist?

[Inter.spem.et.metum]

Believe is a strong word because it confines. All religions are guidelines, just as Buddhism is.

 

I base Christianity off of Jesus's teachings, not the bible. The bible is an incomplete history text written by multiple people. Jesus never claimed to be the sole representation of God. He was a prophet, representing the way to live. True christianity follows the truths set out by that prophet, not what the church uses as propaganda. New age Christians follow these guidelines. Judaism and Islam do not refute Jesus's phophetic characteristics.

 

Each branch was simply a reaction to the times, but they do not negate each other. It is ignorant to say that because a new prophet has appeared that the prophets that came before do not have valid points. Jesus was a reaction of his times, as was Mohammad. The human ego caused people to categorize their teachings into right and wrong, causing conflict, which neither prophet would have supported. Although their focus were different, Jesus being compassionate and Mohammad being just, that doesn't seperate the dependence of the two.

 

And Buddhists believe in the unity of the universe. If this is true, then Jesus is part of that, making him omniscient, as are all of us.

 

Do not expect to disprove my beliefs, just be confident in your own.

[palmtreepathos]

As a believer in Christianity you would believe that Jesus is God himself, the father, the son and the holy ghost all rolled into one.

This belief you are publishing is neither Christian (based on the teachings of Christ) nor from the Bible... It is a laminate belief of greek philosophy, egyptian theology(gods of 3) and apostate religionists "claiming" to be Christian developed over centuries and NOT in harmony with the Bible.

Christendom’s unscriptural teaching of the Trinity, that Jesus was both man and God at the same time, obscures the Bible’s message. It hinders people from understanding the Bible’s simplicity and power. Whom did the man Jesus invoke when HE was praying? Himself? Was he unaware that he was God? And if he was God and knew it, why did he pray? :hihi:

BTW, the basic tenets of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are so disparate that one could not truly "believe" in all three.

You are right on here... and you can lump atheism in there as well.

[C1ay]

This belief you are publishing is neither Christian (based on the teachings of Christ) nor from the Bible... It is a laminate belief of greek philosophy, egyptian theology(gods of 3) and apostate religionists "claiming" to be Christian developed over centuries and NOT in harmony with the Bible.

 

I am certainly not versed enough in the bible to argue scripture but this passage puzzles me since you claim the Trinity is not from the bible:

 

Matthew 28:19

 

¹⁹Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

 

There is also the interpretation and teaching of the Catholic Church which seems to be at odds with your claim:

 

The Trinity

 

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

 

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).

[palmtreepathos]

Matthew 28:19

 

19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

I was raised a Catholic and am very familiar with the teachings. I love the community and family values we all shared but I think that programmed response to the teachings of the church have lead to a lack of spiritual integrity. You can't trust your eyes or the word in front of you.

 

Where does this verse say that Jesus is God? The baptism in God's Name(Yahwah, Jehovah, Ieova) was necessary to be acceptable to Him. They had looked foward to a Messiah for a long time, that he was the firstborn son of the Almighty and that from his death on you could have forgiveness of sins only by approach through his name and obedience to his teachings explains the son. The Holy Spirit we have touched on before....

Quote:

Originally Posted by palmtreepathos

What does the Bible teach on this point? The Spirit is Holy (clean, elevated in purpose) It is a power source emanating from the Creator.

Before you expect to use the bible as proof of anything around here you might find a few of us around here asking for proof that the bible is something other than a story book.

But the Bible shows that the "first fruits" of the Christian congregation would need a total rebirth by the power of God's Holy Spirit to attain to heavenly life(something unheard of before this time) hence baptism in Holy Spirit.

 

HMMM I am wondering now was this a trick question :shrug:

 

But if you are just curious to see how I field this one, let me just say that the scriptures where Jesus call his father "the only true God" John 17:3 or "be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” John 20:17, and others, tell me that when clearly spoken words are ignored in favor of esoteric teachings you have stepped out of the safe Zone....

[Rich]

Clay,

You are basically right about what you say about the Christian

understanding of Christ as being God, though your wrong on the details.

Christ is not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all rolled into one. He

is the Son who is distinct from the Father and Spirit but in eternal

union with both the Father and the Spirit, and this is the reason God is

considered by Christians to be one being in three distinct persons.

 

Another central difference between Christianity and Buddhism is that for

a Buddhist the Universe is eternal, while for a Christian only uncreated God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all rolled into one, is eternal, with

the Universe being a permanent creation of theirs. The nature of the

uncreated Godhead is formless, includes both being and non-being, and is

essentially incomprehensible to created beings, such as human beings.

However, the creation of the Universe by God is also tied to the

creation of the body and soul of Christ, because for a Christian while

the divine personage of Christ is eternal, he takes on a created soul

and body, and this is how the uncreated Trinitarian Godhead interacts

with the created Universe, through the soul and body of Christ. Here we

can begin to see parallels to Buddhist concepts because Christ's soul can

be considered to be the "great soul" to which all souls are united.

 

These concepts were developed by the early Christian Church in response

to challenges by different philosophers to explain Christian

metaphysics. Concepts such as the Trinitarian Godhead explain how it is

possible for there to be one God who is simultaneously transcendent, spiritually interactive with creation, and incarnate as a human being. Some of these explanations have similarities to neo-Platonist concepts because Church theologians were explaining

Christian concepts in terms that neo-Platonists could understand. These

explanations are still accepted by and are important to the Roman and

Orthodox Christian Churches because of their belief that God's revealed truth (prophetic revelation) is in mysterious ways related to truth discovered through human, philosophical means, as well as related to actual truths (as opposed to the errors) that exist in other religions.

Later, Protestants de-coupled Christian truth from philosophical truth by emphasizing the concept of "salvation by faith alone" and "authority of scripture alone". This is one reason it is hard for a fundamentalist Christian to relate to the concept of "atheist Christian" while an Orthodox, Catholic, and Anglican Christian" will concede that a person can exhibit Christian

sensibilities in their value system which reveals a hidden awareness of Godeven though they don't accept the divine nature of Christ, but ultimately they would need to accept his divinity to actually be a Christian.

 

Most of the comments by non-Christians or ex-Christians on this forum reveal a complete lack of knowledge or understanding of traditional Christian theology. Also, these people seem to think that it is absolutely impossible that there might actually be a Holy Spirit that guides the Church in it's teachings, and thus interpret Christian teachings from the perspective of a cynical person speculating as to the diabolical reasons why the Church advocates what it does. If one accepts just the possibility that God might actually have had some influence on the development of Church theology and takes the trouble to investigate what it actually is and how it came about, you might still not believe it to be true, but there would be fewer ignorant comments as to what Christianity is actually about.

 

Rich

[Rich]

Palmtreepathos wrote:

Where does this verse say that Jesus is God?

 

These verses do. John ch.1, line 1

John ch.20, line 28

[C1ay]

Clay,

You are basically right about what you say about the Christian

understanding of Christ as being God, though your wrong on the details.

 

Thanks for providing those details. I certainly don't claim to be versed in Christianity myself since I am not now a Christian, nor ever have been.

[Rich]

Clay,

My last comments in my post addressed to you weren't referring to you, they referred to many who make uniformed comments about what traditional Christians, especially Catholic Christians, believe, and how those beliefs came about. Many cite scripture to support their view, but then show they either don't know or fail to acknowledge that it was the Catholic Church in the fourth century that decided which writings would be included in the New Testament, the same Church that at the same time made clear explanations of their understanding of the Trinity. Another point that many don't seem to understand is the very different views that Protestants and Catholics have in regards to the value of philosophical truths in obtaining a clearer understanding of God and scripture. Catholics attempt to reconcile faith and reason, maintaining a partiallity to faith while acknowledging that philosophy can clarify understanding, while Protestants either dismiss any reasoned argument that doesn't support a literal interpretation of scripture (Fundamentalist view) or dismiss traditional interpretations of scripture and reinterpret it according to their idea as to what is reasonable (liberal Protestants and deists).

Whatever one's view, I would think that people would make more informed comments in regards to Christian views, as they seem to do in regards to philosophical or scientific subjects.

 

Rich

[palmtreepathos]

Palmtreepathos wrote: Where does this verse (Matt 28:19,20)say that Jesus is God? :)

 

*programmed response*

 

I think the quoted verse (line 28) is clarified in line 30.

 

*programmed response*

 

Palmtreepathos...."Let's pretend that there are no scriptures where Jesus calls his father "the true GOD", where his disciples acknowledge that he has a GOD, and where he says "the Father is greater I am""

 

 

*programmed response*~~~*snide personal attacks*~~~*abort thread*~~~*more innuendos*:note:

 

:note::0353: I mean :)

[Rich]

Palmtreepathos....

 

The Catholic Church has always taught that Jesus submits to the Father as an obedient Son and that the Father is the monarch of the Trinity. The passages you cite do nothing to undermine the point that Christ is God, and in fact support the Trinitarian conception of God when considered together with the passages I‘ve cited and other passages, such as where Jesus states that he is the master of the Sabbath, and where he claims to have the power to forgive sins after being told by his inquisitors that only God has this authority.

Also, Paul points out that Christ does not “grasp” at being God even though he is equal to God.

 

It seems to me it is you who have no interest in including all scripture in your analysis, and any responses to your arguments which are similar to what the Catholic Church teaches earns the label “programmed response“. Programmed response or not, what is important is what is right.

 

Rich

[palmtreepathos]

com'on... I tried to lighten this up I have no interest in winning a debate.

Any debate... we have left the purpose of this thread and the order that makes for a true learning experience YOU have the floor ENJOY!!

[Inter.spem.et.metum]

Jesus never claimed to be the sole representation of God. Other people made that claim for him. The bible is can not be considered to be infallible since it was written by human beings.

[Rich]

John ch. 14, line 6

 

Jesus say unto him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[C1ay]

John ch. 14, line 6

 

Jesus say unto him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

BTW, who wrote that? John or Jesus?

[rockytriton]

BTW, who wrote that? John or Jesus?

 

The answer is C. none of the above.

 

It was written by someone who copied it from someone else who copied it from another person who wrote it down that heard it from a person who heard it from another person who was with someone who heard either John or Jesus say it.

[C1ay]

The answer is C. none of the above.

 

It was written by someone who copied it from someone else who copied it from another person who wrote it down that heard it from a person who heard it from another person who was with someone who heard either John or Jesus say it.

 

Ah, so it's hearsay yet I'm guilty of heresy if I don't have faith in it. What a dogma ;)

[rockytriton]

Ah, so it's hearsay yet I'm guilty of heresy if I don't have faith in it. What a dogma :mad:

 

What always gets me is the people who say the bible is the word of God and their reasoning is that it says in the bible that it is the word of God, so it is. What kind of reasoning is that? ;)