Economics and free market

[questor]

Buffy, I have listed the traits that I consider lead to poverty. To recap:

Originally Posted by questor

''This is how I would characterize the majority of the poor:

1. undereducated

2. lack ambition

3. lazy, poor work ethic

4. poor self image

5. never learned a sellable skill set

6. makes poor choices, including having children they can't care for

7. blames others for their problems

8. does not understand cause and effect

9. looks to society to support them...this concept is promoted by liberal politicians

10. habitual or frequent drug users

All these traits are not exhibited by all poor. Most are exhibited by MOST poor. Is this not obvious to you?''

The opposite traits would be the first steps in eliminating poverty. Do you know poor people who exhibit good education, ambition, willingness to work, a sense of self worth and self reliance? Why not read a self -help book to see how others succeeded? You said you are in the top 10% percent of wage earners, do you exhibit the traits listed above? How do YOU think poverty could be eliminated?

Welfare should be limited to those who are unable to work because of mental or physical disabilities.

Governmental waste and fraud is a subject to boggle the mind and would take

hours to document. I might offer one example. I have female friend who at age 50 obtained a PHD in industrial psychology. She got a job in a newly formed agency to study the reasons for airline pilots errors. There were about 8 employees at inception. 15 years later, there are around 50 employees with a huge budget that increases each year. Meetings are held frequently in Cal., Fla. and Arizona resort areas where many detailed papers containing reams of B.S. are presented. She told her supervisor that she didn't need as much grant money as was budgeted last year and was told she had better find a place to spend the money or else the budget would be cut. She works from her home with a computer and telephone, but does attend the resort meetings. I guess they have not yet answered the problem of pilot error.

This is one example of your taxes at work. Are you confident the welfare system is being properly run? Or any other government program?

You seemed to be willing to pay more taxes, perhaps my friend could use a raise.

Do I understand from you that the cure for poverty is money? Or the welfare

system is administered fairly? Or that corporations should not receive tax breaks for any reason?

[InfiniteNow]

You're disgusting, questor. Your generalizations are not only wrong, but they show your own ignorance.

[Zythryn]

Questor, you live a very sheltered life I am guessing.

I have met many poor people that have just the opposite traits you list as most poor having.

I have also met many people that are well off with some, many or even ALL of those traits (turn on the entertainment news, I am sure you can find one too).

You stereotype the majority of the group of people, slander them, then fail to give any solutions to what you identify as the problem.

Yes, some poor people meet some of the traits you list. And yes, some well off people do as well.

Try to be constructive.

[Pyrotex]

questor, for every anecdote that you can give of some bureaucratic fat-cat wasting our tax-dollars, I can give you an anecdote of some poor kid who managed to get a good education and a good job through various government programs, or a divorced and penniless woman who eventually created her own business and owed her success to several years of welfare payments while she went to night school.

 

Anecdotes do not prove anything. They do not make a point. All they do is to show what is possible.

[questor]

It didn't take long for those who don't understand a problem, or can see no solution to it, to start calling names. I would challenge any of you who has helped one poor person turn his life around to tell the story of how he accomplished the task.

To those of you who have trouble understanding the written word, I did not say that ALL poor had the traits i mentioned, I said most of them had a number of them. I was not raised in a privileged home,and I would wager my job experience and working experience with poor people would surpass any of you. I do not claim that all wealthy people are good, or all poor are bad, I have merely recited the traits

of character held by most people who have not succeeded in life. Some people with vast sums of money are horrible people or criminals. Money is not the only mark of success. Many people of moderate means have made wonderful contributions to society, but many here seem to imply that a wealthy person is automatically a bad person and a poor person is automatically a person to revere. Get a life. I am not going to lie to myself and claim poverty will be cured by the transfer of wealth by government. It will only be cured when poor people understand they have to work just like anyone else if they are going to succeed. By the way, which of you lives in a school district which has a nationally highly ranked graduation rate?

[questor]

Pyrotex, good point! Of these anecdotes about poor people having success, did they exhibit the traits of lack of education, laziness, drug use, and blaming others for their problems? No? Well, they probably won't be poor for long. You have proved my point.

[Pyrotex]

Pyrotex, good point! Of these anecdotes about poor people having success, did they exhibit the traits of lack of education, laziness, drug use, and blaming others for their problems? No? Well, they probably won't be poor for long. You have proved my point.

No. I did not prove your point. Look again. :naughty: :evil: :naughty:

 

They WERE poor. They did NOT have the attributes that you stated. Or if they DID have them, it was only temporary. Perhaps the availability of government aid actually CHANGED their attitudes. They suddenly saw an opportunity where none had existed before. Their laziness and lack of motivation was replaced with hope and motivation. They got off their butts and made something of themselves.

 

Anecdotal evidence for the efficacy of (some) government programs is easy to find. Just as easy as the negative anecdote you offered.

[Michaelangelica]

Buffy, I have listed the traits that I consider lead to poverty. To recap:

Originally Posted by questor

''This is how I would characterize the majority of the poor:

1. undereducated

2. lack ambition

3. lazy, poor work ethic

4. poor self image

5. never learned a sellable skill set

6. makes poor choices, including having children they can't care for

7. blames others for their problems

8. does not understand cause and effect

9. looks to society to support them...this concept is promoted by liberal politicians

10. habitual or frequent drug users

All these traits are not exhibited by all poor. Most are exhibited by MOST poor. Is this not obvious to you?''

These are prejudices, not facts.

Visit Africa, SE Asia, India, Afghanistan, Iraq, China and broaden you mind.

[questor]

Pyro, you absolutely proved my point when you said:

''They got off their butts and made something of themselves.'' These people had it in themselves all the time. The welfare check didn't change their character, it merely offered them a chance to exercise what they already had. What about the thousands that don't get off their butts and continue to remain on welfare? If welfare caused improvement and stimulated a new work ethic, we would soon have no reason for welfare.

[questor]

Mich, I am talking about the US, where everyone has an opportunity to rise or fall on their own effort. We have no dictator to rob the populous, free education, free libraries, freedom of expression, and freedom to become the best that you can be. The only thing in your way here is yourself. I'm aware of other countries whose leadership and social setup dooms their citizens to poverty for years to come.

[InfiniteNow]

You are oversimplfying the situation by several orders of magnitude, seemingly to fit what you want into your preconceived notions. Michael is spot on when he reminds you that what you've shared are prejudices and not facts.

 

 

Since the problem is so clear in your mind, questor, what is your proposed solution to it?

[questor]

Infy, I have noticed you are more interested in arguing than thinking. Since you want to support M.'s position and I have already posted my argument, why don't you propose how you would handle the problem of poverty?

[Zythryn]

Questor, not a bad attempt at a dodge.

I also would be interested in your solution. Care to share?

[InfiniteNow]

Infy, I have noticed you are more interested in arguing than thinking.

 

Only against falsehoods which have been shared as fact, and to suggest I am not interested in thinking is an irrelevant ad hom.

 

 

Zythryn, me, and other readers await your response to the question posed to you.

[questor]

Infy, you have proved many times that you are not interested in my thoughts or you would already have the answer to your question. I have posted my positions on two threads which you haven't read or don't understand. I have no problem stating or defending my positions, whereas you don't seem to be able to do so. Maybe Zith would have the courage to state his/her position on the issue. This is not a place where one person commands another to perform, it is a place to exchange ideas. Let's examine just one of yours.

my guess is that you won't be forthcoming or will continue to play the ''you first'' game.

[InfiniteNow]

Infy, you have proved many times that you are not interested in my thoughts.

My question to you was itself a show of interest, hence your comment here also false.

 

You still have failed to offer a response to the question posed to you.

[questor]

Just as anticipated. You have no thought, you just want to try to criticize another's position. I have noticed by reading other post's you never offer a solution of your own. I do understand that you and Zith consider yourselves skillfull debators and want to debate without declaring a personal conviction. Let me play your game... if you have read any other posts by me, would you tell me which thread they were in? And did you understand my meaning? And if you disagreed, what was the reason? If you want to debate, you must at some time take a position and offer reasons to support your side.