Communication of Information

[wigglieverse]

There is a formula that describes heat "transfer" (over time) known as the equation of entropy, which was the result of analysis of thermodynamics. In the 20th century, the concept of information entropy (uncertainty) was introduced, and the equation for this is symmetrical with the entropy equation.

So information presumably has energy. Photons (which "communicate" the external world to our eyes) have mass/energy. Information must also have energy and a mass equivalent.

 

Can anyone list a form of information or communication that can exist without mass/energy?

(There is an objection to the apparent equivalence along the lines of thermodynamic information is physical -heat, but informational entropy isn't physical -I think this is incorrect, and I can't think of any kind of information that can constitute a message which isn't physical.)

[HydrogenBond]

Entropy still involves energy. For entropy to increase it has to absorb energy. For example, an expanding gas cools, because it is absorbing the energy around itself. The energy is going from heat into entropy.

 

Information entropy, if taken literally to imply a form of entropy, would have to absorb energy. For example, if I started a rumor that was not true, the information in the rumor would increase entropy, as the story is expanded and changed. This information entropy increase has to absorb energy to be possible. Truth is sort of zero entropy information. It is totally orderred or reduce to steady state. To reduce all this information entropy, so it can become reduced to the truth, then energy needs to be released. In terms of the mind, all the gossip stories of the imagination would lose all their enthusiasm, which is entropy energy being released. Everyone would go through a type of emotional release and reach a state of rest where everyone agrees on the same thing.

 

The more information entropy about any topic, the more hot air is being added to the truth, so the entropy is able to increase. As the hot air or energy is released to form truth, this is exothermic and can be used to increase the information entropy in the next step of the process. For example, up to Newton, there was information entropy with respect to gravity. This required a lot of hot air so information entropy could increase. Based on bit and pieces, Newton was able to achieved a state close to zero entropy. As this crytalized out, in the minds of others, it gave off emotional energy as all the speculations loss their legs. The old speculation was settled, but the energy given off, became the energy needed for the information entropy needed for the next step.

 

Information entropy is sort of the heat we add to a solution, so we can dissolve all substance. As the entropy lowers, the substance or truth starts to crystalize out into a state of minimal entropy. But like forming a crystal, defects can appear, requiring entropy to dissolve it again for another try at perfection or zero entropy. We take the crystal and place it is fresh water, so we can get rid of the entropy dregs that are not needed to form the truth. If you increase entropy with the same dregs, you can end up the same way. This step is sort of a purification process until a state of zero entropy is reached. Information entropy is the process, while zero entropy information is the goal.

 

The question was, is there information that can exist without mass/energy? The is called the truth, since it is out of the process and is no longer gaining or releasing energy. As long as the truth is in the process then the information involves some type of energy.

[sji]

The question was, is there information that can exist without mass/energy?

 

Mass/energy is necessary for information to exist but mass/energy and information are not identical. For example, if one heats up a copy of the bible by, say, 30 degrees centigrade, the matter and enery of the bible would be measurably affected but the historical/literal information content of the bible would remain constant. This simple test (which may be called the "bible test") seems to distinguish thermodynamic entropy and information-theoretic entropy, since the former is temperature-sensitive while the latter is not (as long as the temperature is not high enough to burn the bible).

[wigglieverse]

the historical/literal information content of the bible

You're saying that this, or any book, has the thermodynamic equivalent of, say, a small log of wood, or something that is a joule equiv.? Or some object that could absorb the same heat and equiv rise in temp (a small block of metal for instance)?

[sji]

You're saying that this, or any book, has the thermodynamic equivalent of, say, a small log of wood, or something that is a joule equiv.? Or some object that could absorb the same heat and equiv rise in temp (a small block of metal for instance)?

 

No. What I am saying is that the historical/literal information content (also called the Komogorov entropy or complexity) of the bible (which you can calculate in terms of the number of bits or binary digits, 0's and 1's, required to describe/represent the words in the bible, including spaces, commas, periods, etc) does not change when the bible is heated within a reasonable range (say, between - 200 to +100 degrees C), while the thermodynamic entropy content (which you can calculate using the formula dS = dQ/T, where dS is the entropy change, dQ is the amount of the heat reversibly absorbed by the bible, and T is the absolute temperature at which the heat transfer occurs) of the bible increases.

[wigglieverse]

I don't see how equating the heat content of the material the bible is made of (the book), with its content, is valid...?

What if its carved in the side of a really big wall instead (the Wall of China say) ? or engraved with a 1.2nm electron beam on the surface of a 1cm square bit of silicon, for instance, does your equivalence still hold? It could be stored in the memory of a satellite 380km out in space.

Also the thermodynamic expenditure required to produce a Bible (and read it) hasn't been included.

[sji]

I don't see how equating the heat content of the material the bible is made of (the book), with its content, is valid...?

What if its carved in the side of a really big wall instead (the Wall of China say) ? or engraved with a 1.2nm electron beam on the surface of a 1cm square bit of silicon, for instance, does your equivalence still hold? It could be stored in the memory of a satellite 380km out in space.

Also the thermodynamic expenditure required to produce a Bible (and read it) hasn't been included.

 

I am not equating the heat content (related to thermodynamic entropy) of the bible with its historical/literal information content (related to information-theoretic entropy). I am saying exactly the opposite: These two types of entropies cannot be equated, primarily because thermodynamic entropy obeys the Second Law while information-theoretic entropy does not. Let us remind us that the entropy of the Universe increases whenver any irreversible process occurs in it, including the erasure of any information (such as burning the bible leading to destroying the biblical information).

[HydrogenBond]

The heating of the bible is changing the media, on which the information is stored, but not the information. If someone decided to tear all the pages out and place them in order in a long line, the entropy of the media would increase without changing the information. If we could write the bible on the head of a pin, the physical entropy would get really low, but the information would see no change in entropy.

 

On the other hand, if we decided to rearrange all the pages, so the final book is exactly the same in size, weight and pages, the information would gain entropy, with very little change in physical entropy. If we took at lasar and evaporated all the letters A,a, we would use only a small amount of energy, but would radically increase information entropy.

 

Information is different than matter, in that matter follows the laws of nature, while information is a function of the mind. Truth, or a state of zero information entropy, but can be perceived, by the mind, as high entropy information. For example, if we translated the bible into a language one did not know, we have not changed the information per se, but for that person, the entropy of the information has increased. What one knows or believes sort of define the information laws of that mind. Because the new data does not work using those laws of the mind, it will appear like high entropy information.

 

The laws of nature, should be the same for all people. The divergence of thought is due to the laws of the mind not being the same. This has less to do with objectivity of the laws of nature, as with the laws of the mind containing subjective factors. The human imagination has no physical limitations, such that anything is possible. This can cause information to appear to gain or retain high entropy.

 

Let me give an analogy. Say one could play God and define the laws of nature anyway they wish. Anything that happens differenly would be called entropy. The next guy, also plays God, and decides to use a different set of physical laws. His entropy is different. What could be entropy to him may follow the physical laws of the other person. This is purely subjective, which is the source of information entropy.

 

The human mind is the analytical tool for analyzing information. If one does not know how the mind works, how can one be sure if their tool is calibrated properly? If all the mind tools, used for thought, were slightly out of calibration, one would expect to get information entropy. Yet there is no constraint in science that assures the mind tool is calibrated. One doesn't even have to know how this tool works and can still be considered an expert at using this analytical tool for information.

[wigglieverse]

information is a function of the mind.

Our own objective truth, or science (and philosophy), our individual learning, you mean? Let's say I could read the King James original edition in Latin, or the Old Testament Hebrew, Aramaic, and so on, what does this internal book 'require' to exist?

there is no constraint in science that assures the mind tool is calibrated

Absolutely. The internal space is unbounded, in that sense, but nonetheless is generally (unless there is a serious fault of some kind), mapped to the individual experience of its owner. This is why people don't walk in front of trucks or cars, generally, or climb trees and jump out of them. We also don't generally eat things that our senses tell us are 'distasteful', because we got designed that way, but infants "measure" the world primarily by sampling it with their smell and taste, first, then they learn to see, then to walk and talk, and so on. Is there a collection of tools, or books (a library) inside a child three years old? What does it look like compared to an older human's collection, and what keeps it "refreshed"?

 

The true thermodynamic cost to us, of (brain) information (which is only represented in something like a book or in a computer memory), is actually unknown (but we don't use magic, and entangled atoms or photons seems to run into the problem that "warm" matter, perturbs it, and it has to be coherent to be useful to us). But we expend up to 30% of our available store in brain activity. We just aren't sure what we do with that energy, but if it is equivalent to the actual information in a brain, then in that sense, knowledge is the entropy change (over a lifetime), while accumulating (and processing) experience and externally represented (symbolic) knowledge, like in books. This presumably extends to the entire individual (organism).

[wigglieverse]

If anyone doesn't see what I mean here, it's that the content, of any message, like a book, is actually (partly) the photons of light that get to our eyes, so lets call it a "stable pattern", for the hell of it, and lets say that this stable pattern represents the (ongoing) communication, which is sending the message, the information, to the eyes (the receiver).

 

At this point, entropy tells us that the content is related to the expectation, so that, if it is expected, it contains less information (and so less content). But the neural cells don't fire until many photons have 'scattered' with pigments' electrons, so there's a 'sample' factor to start with.

 

Then there's the energy expended by all the other neurons and the rest of us, making this information into some memory (maybe by putting in some temporary kind of mental container'). So just how much energy does it ('information') really have, and is this the equivalent of whatever (change in) energy the observer expends (on the message)?

If it's not expected, presumably we do more of the above.

[sji]

The heating of the bible is changing the media, on which the information is stored, but not the information.

 

If someone decided to tear all the pages out and place them in order in a long line, the entropy of the media would increase without changing the information.

 

 

Can you explain how the entropy of the media is increased when the pages of the bible are torn apart and placed in a long line?

 

Information is different than matter, in that matter follows the laws of nature, while information is a function of the mind. Truth, or a state of zero information entropy, but can be perceived, by the mind, as high entropy information.

 

How do you define "information entropy"? Do you mean by it "the uncertainty in information"? I have nver heard of "information entropy" until now. Is this phrase commonly used in some well-established field that I am ignorant of?

[wigglieverse]

Can you explain how the entropy of the media is increased when the pages of the bible are torn apart and placed in a long line?

OK, how does this compare with someone´s internal memory of some book that gets ´lost´ or confused (in their memory)? Say you aren´t that good at remembering the order of the pages, or even what´s written on some of them, or who wrote them...

Your internal copy of some information (this was how things got passed on, or recorded not all that long ago, mostly, back before books turned up), is maintained both by you staying alive (eating and so on), and by recalling it and using, or reviewing it. This is mostly how information that is both learned and shared, is checked or validated (reviewed by the group), so there is an external store, in other observers. The book is transient, but somehow more stable than the collective mind that understands it...?

How do you define "information entropy"? Do you mean by it "the uncertainty in information"?

Claude Shannon showed how the number of bits used to encode any message (alphabet), defines the maximum information content of the message (channel), and the equation for this ´entropy´ (actually uncertainty), is symmetrical with the thermodynamic equation. It´s all under entropy heading in Wikipedia.