rudeonline Posted November 13, 2007 Report Posted November 13, 2007 I was thinking about acceleration. If you speed up from 50km/h to 60km/h does this "cost" the same amount of energie like speeding up from 200km/h to 210 km/h? And what for 2000km/h to 2010km/h? Quote
Jay-qu Posted November 13, 2007 Report Posted November 13, 2007 The bottom line is no, it will be different. But there are varying reasons for the answer. Firstly it will depend on your vehicle. Often frictional resistance is proportional to v^2 meaning the faster you go the more resistance you encouter, requiring more force to accelerate you the same amount. But say your in a space-ship the differences you mention would be minimised. There is a slight difference that is a direct consequence of Special relativity and that is that as your increase your velocity your mass will increase, needing more force to keep you accelerating at the same rate. Note that this effect is absolutely minuscule on the scale you outline in your post. :snow: Quote
rudeonline Posted November 13, 2007 Author Report Posted November 13, 2007 I was thinking about a spaceship, using solar energy to accelerate. Say at some point you travel with 20.000km/h, you can switch of your engine and the same speed will remain. To speed up 10km/h more, you just switch on your engine and accelerate 10km/h. No big deal.. Then, if aaceleration will cost all the time the same amount of energy, I mean all kinds of speed could been seen as a zeropoint of acceleraton and you just need a little bit of energy to speed up 10km/h, would it then be possible to accelerate to the lightspeed if you would use solar energy to speed up? Quote
Boerseun Posted November 13, 2007 Report Posted November 13, 2007 As far as your spaceship is concerned, you're not moving at all. Until you define your velocity in terms of movement relative to some arbitrary vantage point like, say, Earth. So, travelling at 99% the velocity of light will be identical to travelling at 10km/h. Matter of fact, we are already moving at 99.9% the speed of light. But only in relation to very far-off galaxies, which, according to them, are standing perfectly still. What you're proposing is exactly the reason why Einstein came up with Relativity. Quote
Qfwfq Posted November 13, 2007 Report Posted November 13, 2007 For a given mass, kinetic energy is proportional to velocity squared in the non-relativistic approximation. [math]60^2-50^2=1100[/math] [math]210^2-200^2=4100[/math] It's almost 4 times as much, and for a reason: in the second case the initial velocity is 4 times than in the first case. The first order term of [imath]\Delta E[/imath] is exactly 4 times as much while the second order term is the same. [math]\Delta E=2v\Delta v + (\Delta v)^2[/math] Quote
CraigD Posted November 14, 2007 Report Posted November 14, 2007 I was thinking about acceleration. If you speed up from 50km/h to 60km/h does this "cost" the same amount of energie like speeding up from 200km/h to 210 km/h? And what for 2000km/h to 2010km/h?Short answer: yes, a given change in velocity – “delta V” – requires about the same amount of energy and reaction mass (more on “reaction mass” later), assuming your rocket’s mass is about the same in both cases. (This isn’t a very good assumption, though, since rockets become less massive as they expel reaction mass - more on that later, too) At the same time Qfwfq’s post explaining that a ship accelerating from 200 to 210 ship gains about 4 times as much kinetic energy as the same ship (net mass, rockets, etc) accelerating from 50 to 60 is correct, and perfectly simple mechanics. So, the rocket science paradox question of the day: huh? How can that be? The answer comes from realizing that a rocket isn’t only a spaceship-accelerating machine, but a reaction mass (the gas and particles in its exhaust) accelerating machine. If you calculate the change of kinetic energy of the ship and its reaction mass, you find it matches (allowing for various engineering inefficiencies) the energy of the chemical or other energy sources used to accelerate them. As a rocket expels reaction mass, it becomes less massive, so requires less power (energy used per unit time) to experience the same acceleration As a rocket’s velocity relative to some stationary (unaccelerating) observation point increases, more of this energy is in the form of change in ship velocity, less in exhaust, so the rocket appears to become more “efficient” as it’s velocity nears that of its exhaust, peaking when the expelled reaction mass appears stationary relative to the observation point. It can be helpful to just crank out some numbers and look at them Here’s a mass 100 rocket with an acceleration of 10 and an exhaust velocity of 1000 (you can use any units you like – kgs, m/s/s, and m/s are not too far from accurate for a small rocket):Ship Exhaust Total ------------------------------------- ----------------------- ---------------- Kinetic Kinetic Kinetic Speed Mass Energy % Change Energy % Change Energy Change ------------------------------------- ----------------------- ---------------- 10 99.01 4950 0.01 4950 485198 0.99 485198 490149 490149 20 98.03 19606 0.02 14655 955936 0.98 470738 975542 485394 30 97.06 43677 0.03 24071 1412550 0.97 456614 1456227 480685 40 96.10 76878 0.04 33202 1855370 0.96 442820 1932248 476022 50 95.15 118933 0.05 42055 2284719 0.95 429349 2403652 471404 60 94.20 169568 0.06 50635 2700915 0.94 416196 2870483 466831 70 93.27 228516 0.07 58948 3104268 0.93 403354 3332784 462302 80 92.35 295515 0.08 66999 3495087 0.92 390818 3790601 457817 90 91.43 370308 0.09 74793 3873669 0.91 378582 4243977 453375 100 90.53 452643 0.10 82336 4240310 0.90 366641 4692954 448977 110 89.63 542276 0.11 89632 4595299 0.89 354989 5137575 444621 120 88.74 638963 0.11 96688 4938920 0.89 343620 5577883 440308 130 87.87 742470 0.12 103506 5271449 0.88 332530 6013919 436036 140 87.00 852564 0.13 110094 5593162 0.87 321712 6445725 431806 150 86.13 969018 0.14 116454 5904324 0.86 311162 6873342 427617 160 85.28 1091611 0.15 122593 6205200 0.85 300875 7296811 423468 170 84.44 1220125 0.16 128514 6496045 0.84 290846 7716171 419360 180 83.60 1354348 0.17 134223 6777114 0.83 281069 8131462 415292 190 82.77 1494071 0.17 139722 7048654 0.83 271540 8542725 411263 200 81.95 1639089 0.18 145018 7310909 0.82 262254 8949998 407273 210 81.14 1789204 0.19 150115 7564115 0.81 253207 9353319 403321 220 80.34 1944219 0.20 155015 7808509 0.80 244393 9752727 399408 230 79.54 2103944 0.21 159725 8044317 0.79 235809 10148261 395533 240 78.76 2268190 0.22 164247 8271766 0.78 227449 10539957 391696 250 77.98 2436776 0.22 168586 8491076 0.78 219310 10927853 387896 260 77.20 2609522 0.23 172746 8702463 0.77 211387 11311985 384132 270 76.44 2786252 0.24 176730 8906138 0.76 203675 11692391 380406 280 75.68 2966795 0.25 180543 9102310 0.75 196172 12069106 376715 290 74.93 3150984 0.25 184188 9291182 0.75 188872 12442166 373060 300 74.19 3338653 0.26 187669 9472953 0.74 181771 12811606 369441 310 73.46 3529643 0.27 190990 9647819 0.73 174866 13177462 365856 320 72.73 3723797 0.28 194154 9815972 0.72 168153 13539769 362307 330 72.01 3920961 0.28 197164 9977599 0.72 161627 13898560 358791 340 71.30 4120986 0.29 200025 10132885 0.71 155286 14253870 355310 350 70.59 4323724 0.30 202739 10282009 0.70 149124 14605733 351863 360 69.89 4529034 0.30 205309 10425149 0.70 143140 14954182 348449 370 69.20 4736774 0.31 207740 10562477 0.69 137328 15299251 345068 380 68.52 4946807 0.32 210034 10694164 0.68 131686 15640971 341720 390 67.84 5159001 0.32 212194 10820374 0.68 126211 15979376 338405 400 67.17 5373225 0.33 214224 10941272 0.67 120898 16314497 335121 410 66.50 5589351 0.34 216126 11057016 0.66 115744 16646367 331870 420 65.84 5807255 0.34 217904 11167762 0.66 110746 16975017 328650 430 65.19 6026815 0.35 219560 11273663 0.65 105901 17300478 325461 440 64.54 6247912 0.35 221097 11374869 0.65 101206 17622781 322303 450 63.91 6470431 0.36 222519 11471526 0.64 96657 17941957 319176 460 63.27 6694258 0.37 223827 11563777 0.63 92252 18258036 316079 470 62.65 6919284 0.37 225026 11651764 0.63 87987 18571048 313012 480 62.03 7145400 0.38 226116 11735623 0.62 83859 18881023 309975 490 61.41 7372501 0.38 227101 11815490 0.62 79866 19187991 306967 500 60.80 7600485 0.39 227984 11891494 0.61 76005 19491980 303989 510 60.20 7829252 0.40 228767 11963767 0.60 72272 19793019 301039 520 59.61 8058705 0.40 229453 12032433 0.60 68666 20091138 298118 530 59.02 8288748 0.41 230043 12097615 0.59 65183 20386363 295226 540 58.43 8519289 0.41 230541 12159436 0.59 61820 20678725 292361 550 57.85 8750237 0.42 230948 12218012 0.58 58576 20968249 289524 560 57.28 8981505 0.42 231268 12273459 0.58 55447 21254964 286715 570 56.71 9213007 0.43 231502 12325890 0.57 52431 21538897 283933 580 56.15 9444660 0.43 231652 12375415 0.57 49526 21820075 281178 590 55.60 9676381 0.44 231722 12422143 0.56 46728 22098525 278450 600 55.04 9908093 0.44 231712 12466179 0.56 44036 22374272 275748 610 54.50 10139718 0.45 231625 12507627 0.55 41447 22647344 273072 620 53.96 10371181 0.45 231463 12546586 0.55 38959 22917767 270422 630 53.43 10602409 0.46 231228 12583156 0.54 36570 23185565 267798 640 52.90 10833331 0.46 230922 12617433 0.54 34277 23450765 265200 650 52.37 11063879 0.47 230548 12649512 0.53 32079 23713391 262626 660 51.85 11293985 0.47 230106 12679484 0.53 29972 23973469 260078 670 51.34 11523584 0.48 229599 12707440 0.52 27955 24231023 257554 680 50.83 11752612 0.48 229029 12733466 0.52 26027 24486079 255055 690 50.33 11981009 0.48 228397 12757650 0.52 24183 24738659 252580 700 49.83 12208714 0.49 227705 12780074 0.51 22424 24988788 250129 710 49.34 12435669 0.49 226955 12800820 0.51 20747 25236490 247702 720 48.85 12661819 0.50 226149 12819970 0.50 19149 25481788 245298 730 48.37 12887107 0.50 225289 12837599 0.50 17629 25724706 242918 740 47.89 13111482 0.50 224375 12853785 0.50 16186 25965267 240561 750 47.41 13334892 0.51 223410 12868601 0.49 14817 26203493 238226 760 46.94 13557287 0.51 222395 12882121 0.49 13520 26439408 235915 770 46.48 13778618 0.52 221332 12894415 0.48 12294 26673033 233625 780 46.02 13998840 0.52 220222 12905551 0.48 11136 26904391 231358 790 45.56 14217907 0.52 219066 12915598 0.48 10047 27133504 229113 800 45.11 14435774 0.53 217867 12924620 0.47 9022 27360394 226890 810 44.67 14652400 0.53 216626 12932682 0.47 8062 27585082 224688 820 44.22 14867743 0.53 215343 12939846 0.47 7164 27807590 222508 830 43.79 15081765 0.54 214021 12946173 0.46 6327 28027938 220348 840 43.35 15294426 0.54 212661 12951722 0.46 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188515 1000 36.97 18485561 0.59 186686 12977463 0.41 0 31463024 186686 1010 36.61 18670416 0.59 184856 12977482 0.41 18 31647898 184874 1020 36.24 18853423 0.59 183007 12977554 0.41 72 31830978 183080 1030 35.88 19034565 0.59 181141 12977716 0.41 161 32012281 181303 1040 35.53 19213824 0.60 179259 12978000 0.40 284 32191824 179543 1050 35.18 19391185 0.60 177361 12978440 0.40 440 32369625 177801 1060 34.83 19566634 0.60 175448 12979067 0.40 627 32545700 176075 1070 34.48 19740155 0.60 173522 12979911 0.40 845 32720067 174366 1080 34.14 19911737 0.61 171582 12981004 0.39 1093 32892741 172674 1090 33.80 20081366 0.61 169629 12982373 0.39 1369 33063739 170998 1100 33.47 20249032 0.61 167665 12984046 0.39 1673 33233078 169339 1110 33.14 20414722 0.61 165690 12986051 0.39 2005 33400773 167695 1120 32.81 20578428 0.61 163705 12988414 0.39 2362 33566841 166068 1130 32.49 20740139 0.61 161711 12991159 0.39 2745 33731297 164456 1140 32.16 20899846 0.62 159708 12994311 0.38 3152 33894157 162860 1150 31.85 21057543 0.62 157697 12997893 0.38 3583 34055436 161279 1160 31.53 21213221 0.62 155678 13001929 0.38 4036 34215150 159714 1170 31.22 21366874 0.62 153653 13006440 0.38 4511 34373314 158164 1180 30.91 21518496 0.62 151622 13011447 0.38 5007 34529943 156629 1190 30.60 21668081 0.62 149585 13016971 0.38 5524 34685052 155109 1200 30.30 21815624 0.63 147543 13023031 0.37 6060 34838655 153603 1210 30.00 21961122 0.63 145497 13029646 0.37 6615 34990767 152112 1220 29.70 22104570 0.63 143448 13036834 0.37 7188 35141403 150636 1230 29.41 22245965 0.63 141395 13044612 0.37 7779 35290577 149174 1240 29.12 22385305 0.63 139340 13052998 0.37 8386 35438303 147726 1250 28.83 22522589 0.63 137283 13062007 0.37 9009 35584596 146292 1260 28.54 22657814 0.63 135225 13071655 0.37 9648 35729468 144872 1270 28.26 22790979 0.64 133165 13081956 0.36 10301 35872934 143466 1280 27.98 22922084 0.64 131105 13092924 0.36 10969 36015008 142074 1290 27.70 23051129 0.64 129045 13104574 0.36 11650 36155703 140695 1300 27.43 23178115 0.64 126986 13116917 0.36 12343 36295032 139329 1310 27.16 23303043 0.64 124927 13129967 0.36 13049 36433009 137977 1320 26.89 23425913 0.64 122870 13143734 0.36 13767 36569647 136638 1330 26.62 23546728 0.64 120815 13158230 0.36 14496 36704959 135311 1340 26.36 23665491 0.64 118762 13173466 0.36 15236 36838957 133998 1350 26.10 23782203 0.64 116712 13189451 0.36 15985 36971654 132698 1360 25.84 23896868 0.64 114665 13206196 0.36 16744 37103064 131410 1370 25.58 24009490 0.64 112622 13223708 0.36 17512 37233198 130134 1380 25.33 24120072 0.65 110582 13241997 0.35 18289 37362069 128871 1390 25.08 24228618 0.65 108547 13261070 0.35 19073 37489689 127620 1400 24.83 24335134 0.65 106516 13280936 0.35 19865 37616070 126381 1410 24.59 24439624 0.65 104490 13301600 0.35 20664 37741225 125155 1420 24.34 24542094 0.65 102470 13323070 0.35 21470 37865164 123940 1430 24.10 24642549 0.65 100455 13345352 0.35 22282 37987901 122737 1440 23.86 24740995 0.65 98446 13368451 0.35 23099 38109446 121545 1450 23.63 24837439 0.65 96444 13392373 0.35 23922 38229812 120366 1460 23.39 24931887 0.65 94448 13417123 0.35 24749 38349009 119197 1470 23.16 25024346 0.65 92459 13442704 0.35 25581 38467050 118040 1480 22.93 25114823 0.65 90477 13469121 0.35 26417 38583944 116894 1490 22.70 25203325 0.65 88503 13496378 0.35 27257 38699704 115760 1500 22.48 25289862 0.65 86536 13524478 0.35 28100 38814340 114636 1510 22.26 25374439 0.65 84578 13553424 0.35 28946 38927863 113523 1520 22.04 25457067 0.65 82627 13583218 0.35 29794 39040285 112421 1530 21.82 25537753 0.65 80686 13613862 0.35 30644 39151615 111330 1540 21.60 25616505 0.65 78753 13645359 0.35 31497 39261864 110249 1550 21.39 25693334 0.65 76829 13677710 0.35 32351 39371044 109179 1560 21.18 25768248 0.65 74914 13710915 0.35 33206 39479163 108119 1570 20.97 25841256 0.65 73008 13744977 0.35 34062 39586233 107070 1580 20.76 25912369 0.65 71113 13779895 0.35 34918 39692264 106031 1590 20.55 25981596 0.65 69227 13815669 0.35 35775 39797265 105001 1600 20.35 26048947 0.65 67351 13852301 0.35 36631 39901247 103982 1610 20.15 26114432 0.65 65485 13889788 0.35 37488 40004220 102973 1620 19.95 26178061 0.65 63630 13928132 0.35 38343 40106193 101973 1630 19.75 26239846 0.65 61785 13967330 0.35 39198 40207176 100983 1640 19.56 26299797 0.65 59951 14007382 0.35 40052 40307179 100003 1650 19.36 26357925 0.65 58128 14048286 0.35 40904 40406212 99032 1660 19.17 26414241 0.65 56316 14090042 0.35 41755 40504282 98071 1670 18.98 26468756 0.65 54515 14132646 0.35 42604 40601401 97119 1680 18.79 26521481 0.65 52725 14176096 0.35 43451 40697577 96176 1690 18.61 26572428 0.65 50947 14220391 0.35 44295 40792820 95242 1700 18.42 26621609 0.65 49181 14265528 0.35 45137 40887138 94318 1710 18.24 26669035 0.65 47426 14311505 0.35 45976 40980540 93402 1720 18.06 26714719 0.65 45683 14358317 0.35 46812 41073035 92496 1730 17.88 26758671 0.65 43953 14405962 0.35 47645 41164633 91598 1740 17.70 26800905 0.65 42234 14454436 0.35 48475 41255342 90708 1750 17.53 26841432 0.65 40527 14503737 0.35 49301 41345169 89828 1760 17.36 26880266 0.65 38833 14553860 0.35 50123 41434125 88956 1770 17.18 26917417 0.65 37151 14604801 0.35 50941 41522218 88092 1780 17.01 26952898 0.65 35482 14656556 0.35 51755 41609455 87237 1790 16.85 26986723 0.65 33825 14709121 0.35 52565 41695845 86390 1800 16.68 27018904 0.65 32181 14762492 0.35 53371 41781396 85552 1810 16.51 27049454 0.65 30549 14816664 0.35 54172 41866117 84721 1820 16.35 27078385 0.65 28931 14871631 0.35 54968 41950016 83899 1830 16.19 27105710 0.64 27325 14927390 0.36 55759 42033100 83084 1840 16.03 27131442 0.64 25732 14983935 0.36 56545 42115377 82277 1850 15.87 27155594 0.64 24152 15041262 0.36 57326 42196856 81479 1860 15.71 27178180 0.64 22586 15099364 0.36 58102 42277544 80688 1870 15.56 27199212 0.64 21032 15158236 0.36 58872 42357448 79904 1880 15.40 27218703 0.64 19491 15217873 0.36 59637 42436577 79129 1890 15.25 27236667 0.64 17964 15278270 0.36 60396 42514937 78360 1900 15.10 27253117 0.64 16450 15339419 0.36 61150 42592537 77600 1910 14.95 27268067 0.64 14949 15401316 0.36 61897 42669383 76846 1920 14.80 27281528 0.64 13462 15463955 0.36 62639 42745483 76100 1930 14.65 27293516 0.64 11987 15527329 0.36 63374 42820845 75361 1940 14.51 27304042 0.64 10527 15591432 0.36 64103 42895475 74630 1950 14.37 27313122 0.64 9079 15656258 0.36 64826 42969380 73905 1960 14.22 27320767 0.63 7645 15721801 0.37 65543 43042568 73188 1970 14.08 27326991 0.63 6225 15788053 0.37 66253 43115045 72477 1980 13.94 27331809 0.63 4817 15855009 0.37 66956 43186818 71774 1990 13.81 27335233 0.63 3424 15922662 0.37 67653 43257895 71077 2000 13.67 27337276 0.63 2043 15991005 0.37 68343 43328282 70387 2010 13.53 27337953 0.63 677 16060032 0.37 69027 43397985 69703 2020 13.40 27337276 0.63 -677 16129735 0.37 69703 43467011 69027 2030 13.27 27335260 0.63 -2017 16200108 0.37 70373 43535368 68356 2040 13.14 27331917 0.63 -3343 16271144 0.37 71036 43603061 67693 2050 13.01 27327261 0.63 -4656 16342835 0.37 71691 43670096 67036 2060 12.88 27321305 0.62 -5955 16415175 0.38 72340 43736481 66385 2070 12.75 27314064 0.62 -7241 16488157 0.38 72982 43802221 65740 2080 12.62 27305550 0.62 -8514 16561773 0.38 73616 43867323 65102 2090 12.50 27295777 0.62 -9773 16636016 0.38 74243 43931793 64470 2100 12.37 27284758 0.62 -11019 16710879 0.38 74863 43995636 63844 2110 12.25 27272506 0.62 -12252 16786354 0.38 75476 44058860 63224 2120 12.13 27259035 0.62 -13471 16862435 0.38 76081 44121471 62610 2130 12.01 27244359 0.62 -14676 16939114 0.38 76679 44183473 62002 2140 11.89 27228490 0.62 -15869 17016383 0.38 77269 44244873 61400 2150 11.77 27211442 0.61 -17048 17094235 0.39 77852 44305677 60804 2160 11.66 27193228 0.61 -18214 17172663 0.39 78428 44365891 60214 2170 11.54 27173862 0.61 -19367 17251658 0.39 78996 44425520 59629 2180 11.43 27153356 0.61 -20506 17331215 0.39 79556 44484570 59050 2190 11.31 27131723 0.61 -21633 17411324 0.39 80109 44543047 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0.00 -2009 50249709 1.00 2040 50501909 30 9940 0.01 250206 0.00 -1994 50251733 1.00 2024 50501939 30 9950 0.01 248227 0.00 -1979 50253741 1.00 2008 50501968 30 9960 0.00 246264 0.00 -1963 50255734 1.00 1993 50501998 30 9970 0.00 244315 0.00 -1948 50257712 1.00 1978 50502027 29 9980 0.00 242382 0.00 -1933 50259674 1.00 1962 50502056 29 9990 0.00 240463 0.00 -1919 50261622 1.00 1947 50502085 29 10000 0.00 238559 0.00 -1904 50263554 1.00 1932 50502113 28Note the “magic velocity” of 1000, the same as the exhaust velocity, where all of the rocket’s power contributes to its kinetic energy, none to the exhaust’s. From the point of view of the observation point, the exhaust at this moment appears to be stationary. Quote
rudeonline Posted November 23, 2007 Author Report Posted November 23, 2007 I don't get it. Each speed could be seen as a point of stillness. If you travel 200km/sec and you would speed up to 210km/sec must cost this the same ammount of energy as speeding up from 300km/sec to 310km/sec. I hope you understand that this expariment would be done in space, so each speed could be seen as stillness. Quote
Tormod Posted November 23, 2007 Report Posted November 23, 2007 Each speed could be seen as a point of stillness. Why? Quote
Boerseun Posted November 23, 2007 Report Posted November 23, 2007 Each speed could be seen as a point of stillness....so each speed could be seen as stillness.Or, as it is more commonly called, frames of reference. And, Yes. You're completely right there. Every single point in the universe, regardless of mass or velocity, is a perfectly valid frame of reference for whatever experiment you'd like to perform in it. Or, as some grizzly old German would like you to believe, everything's relative. Quote
rudeonline Posted November 24, 2007 Author Report Posted November 24, 2007 Or, as it is more commonly called, frames of reference. And, Yes. You're completely right there. Every single point in the universe, regardless of mass or velocity, is a perfectly valid frame of reference for whatever experiment you'd like to perform in it. Or, as some grizzly old German would like you to believe, everything's relative. And why did we never used the speed of light as reference frame? Quote
Tormod Posted November 24, 2007 Report Posted November 24, 2007 And why did we never used the speed of light as reference frame? I think you are misunderstanding something. The speed of light is always constant to observers in different reference frames of motion - and is currently the only such constant we know of. Thus the speed of light is used as the measurement tool in many areas already. What you are talking about, acceleration from X km/h by Y km/h, is explained by both Newton and Einstein. Acceleration will always be relative to many other reference frame, but you need to decide which one to measure it from. It is most practical to choose the same one that the accelerating object is in, since it is what is being accelerated, and it is the only one that will give you a "meaningful" answer. Nothing is really ever at rest in the universe, since there is currently no known object to which we can compare motion. A geostationary satellite, for example, appears to be completely still when seen from the ground of the Earth, but it moves around it at the speed of one orbit per Earth rotation, which is pretty fast, or 11000 km/h. Boerseun 1 Quote
Mohit Pandey Posted November 24, 2007 Report Posted November 24, 2007 Nothing is really ever at rest in the universe, since there is currently no known object to which we can compare motion. A geostationary satellite, for example, appears to be completely still when seen from the ground of the Earth, but it moves around it at the speed of one orbit per Earth rotation, which is pretty fast, or 11000 km/h.There was a question I read somewhere what is your speed while standing still on earth. The answer was around 11000 km/h.Is it correct? Quote
rudeonline Posted November 24, 2007 Author Report Posted November 24, 2007 I think you are misunderstanding something. The speed of light is always constant to observers in different reference frames of motion - and is currently the only such constant we know of. Thus the speed of light is used as the measurement tool in many areas already. What you are talking about, acceleration from X km/h by Y km/h, is explained by both Newton and Einstein. Acceleration will always be relative to many other reference frame, but you need to decide which one to measure it from. It is most practical to choose the same one that the accelerating object is in, since it is what is being accelerated, and it is the only one that will give you a "meaningful" answer. Nothing is really ever at rest in the universe, since there is currently no known object to which we can compare motion. A geostationary satellite, for example, appears to be completely still when seen from the ground of the Earth, but it moves around it at the speed of one orbit per Earth rotation, which is pretty fast, or 11000 km/h. If you would use the speed of light as referecne frame, the time differnce tell's you who has moved most.. So you can use the lightspeed as referenceframe. But you will have to express your movement in time not in space. I don't think that Einstein would have a problem with that, since time and space only exist together. Quote
Tormod Posted November 24, 2007 Report Posted November 24, 2007 If you would use the speed of light as referecne frame, the time differnce tell's you who has moved most.. So you can use the lightspeed as referenceframe. But you will have to express your movement in time not in space. I don't think that Einstein would have a problem with that, since time and space only exist together. You need to explain how you would use the speed of light as a reference frame. What would you benefit from it? Einstein postulated that the speed of light is constant for all observers, regardless of their frame of motion (and regardless of whether you were accelerating or not). He also postulated that in order for light speed to be the same for all observers, something has to yield - this "something" being space itself (he based this on the theory of Lorentz Contraction after the Michelson-Morley experiment). Quote
sanctus Posted November 24, 2007 Report Posted November 24, 2007 Mohit, it is right in the given reference frame (which may be the sun with some given axis, not earth because there you don't move). Rudeonline, already I don't understand how you want to use a speed as a reference frame; a reference frame is sort of just a system of chosen coordinates (eg. cartesian centered in the sun, one axis towards the center of the galaxy,etc.).The thing is the speed of light in relativity is postulated to be the same in every reference frame and one can show that nothing massive can ever reach the speed of light (see any special relativity book). If a spaceship moves away from earth at 90% of the speed of light the acceleration to get to 91% is not the same as the one from 99% to 100% (the latter being actually infinite). Quote
modest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Posted November 26, 2007 I was thinking about a spaceship, using solar energy to accelerate. Say at some point you travel with 20.000km/h, you can switch of your engine and the same speed will remain. To speed up 10km/h more, you just switch on your engine and accelerate 10km/h. No big deal.. Then, if aaceleration will cost all the time the same amount of energy, I mean all kinds of speed could been seen as a zeropoint of acceleraton and you just need a little bit of energy to speed up 10km/h, would it then be possible to accelerate to the lightspeed if you would use solar energy to speed up? rudeonline, Acceleration is force / mass. A spaceship with constant force and mass will have constant acceleration. Your solar-sail spaceship will have constant mass until its total change in velocity becomes relativistic. However, solar sails do not give constant force. As the distance from the sun increases, the force propelling your spaceship would decrease by the inverse square law. This would be the limiting factor on this type of spaceship design. If you would use the speed of light as referecne frame, the time differnce tell's you who has moved most.. So you can use the lightspeed as referenceframe. It is problematic to use a photon’s reference frame, here is a thread on the topic: Photons have no time -modest Quote
Pyrotex Posted November 26, 2007 Report Posted November 26, 2007 There was a question I read somewhere what is your speed while standing still on earth. The answer was around 11000 km/h.Is it correct?I don't think so.If you consider only the speed of the Earth's surface spinning about its center, then your speed (at the equator) is about 1000 mph or about 1700 kph. Quote
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