Hydrogen Product By Photovoltaic Electolytic Cell

[Turtle]

Did you have plans for it?

 

 

 

That seems like a poor production amount per time. Actually, it seems surprisingly low. I wonder how much was lost through inefficiencies such as the electrode and the bottle (the PET issue Craig brought up earlier was never addressed, in regards to H2).

 

Very slow I agree, even by my standards. :hihi: But, it's free once set up & going and if the panels aren't doing other work it at least provides a means of converting one form of usable energy to another.

 

Which brings me to the plans for the gas, which were to insert a vinyl tube down into the electrolyte & up into the top of the hydrogen collection bottle and then hook it to a simple metal burner pipe ala a Bunsen burner. I expect in that setup, that as the gas is drawn out of the bottle to burn, electrolye will reenter the bottle and fill it again as all the hydrogen is burned. If all that didn't fail, I planned to time how long the burn lasted. :)

[Qfwfq]

Which brings me to the plans for the gas, which were to insert a vinyl tube down into the electrolyte & up into the top of the hydrogen collection bottle and then hook it to a simple metal burner pipe ala a Bunsen burner. I expect in that setup, that as the gas is drawn out of the bottle to burn, electrolye will reenter the bottle and fill it again as all the hydrogen is burned. If all that didn't fail, I planned to time how long the burn lasted. :cheer:

I'd be very careful with that. You don't have any check as to whether some of the oxygen ended up mixed in with the hydrogen, a plausible thing seeing you were getting so much copper oxide. In this case, according to whether or not the burner is exactly suitable to the purpose and how long it's been since Vladmir Putin last sneezed, there's a serious likelihood of the flame front propagating right into the bottle while it's still full of the gas mix.

 

:lol: A bottle of the mix can be enough to knock quite a few things down.

[Turtle]

I'd be very careful with that. You don't have any check as to whether some of the oxygen ended up mixed in with the hydrogen, a plausible thing seeing you were getting so much copper oxide. In this case, according to whether or not the burner is exactly suitable to the purpose and how long it's been since Vladmir Putin last sneezed, there's a serious likelihood of the flame front propagating right into the bottle while it's still full of the gas mix.

 

A bottle of the mix can be enough to knock quite a few things down.

 

Good advice Q. The burner part of the experiment, especially the first try, is definately an outdoor project. :shrug:

 

I wonder how much was lost through inefficiencies such as the electrode and the bottle (the PET issue Craig brought up earlier was never addressed, in regards to H2).

 

I gathered from those references the PET plastic is not Hydrogen permeable. :confused:I left the system disconnected while I went on holiday and when I returned the level was as when I left; I don't think any H escaped the bottle until it bobbed up to the surface & the gas leaked right out the bottle neck.

 

If I get around to trying this again I will try the graphite electrodes. I have done this experiment before & used sodium hydroxide (drano crystals) in the electrolyte as I read it makes more Hydrogen available, however it is dangerous if mishandled. It burns!!! it burns!!!! ;)

[freeztar]

I gathered from those references the PET plastic is not Hydrogen permeable. :confused:I left the system disconnected while I went on holiday and when I returned the level was as when I left; I don't think any H escaped the bottle until it bobbed up to the surface & the gas leaked right out the bottle neck.

 

I can't see where you gathered it from. By "references", do you mean the wiki link Craig gave?

 

Here's a quote from that wiki article on PET:

When produced as a thin film (often known by the tradename Mylar), PET is often coated with aluminium to reduce its permeability, and to make it reflective and opaque. PET bottles are excellent barrier materials and are widely used for soft drinks, (see carbonation)...

For certain specialty bottles, PET sandwiches an additional polyvinyl alcohol to further reduce its oxygen permeability.

 

If the best they can do with PET is reduce it's O2 permeability, then I would reason that H2 is definitely permeable. Unfortunately they don't quantify "excellent barrier materials" in terms of permeability, but I think it's safe to assume that not much H2 is lost through the PET (especially in a weeks time).

[Turtle]

I can't see where you gathered it from. By "references", do you mean the wiki link Craig gave?

 

Here's a quote from that wiki article on PET:

 

 

If the best they can do with PET is reduce it's O2 permeability, then I would reason that H2 is definitely permeable. Unfortunately they don't quantify "excellent barrier materials" in terms of permeability, but I think it's safe to assume that not much H2 is lost through the PET (especially in a weeks time).

 

It seems the hydrogen atom is so small that in general it can react with most materials. Given the potential for explosion, the plastic at least is unlikely to produce shrapnel as metal or glass could.

 

In running down the corrosive effects of Hydrogen I found this article well suited to this thread as well as the H core discussion.

[Turtle]

I can't see where you gathered it from. By "references", do you mean the wiki link Craig gave?

 

Here's a quote from that wiki article on PET:

 

 

If the best they can do with PET is reduce it's O2 permeability, then I would reason that H2 is definitely permeable. Unfortunately they don't quantify "excellent barrier materials" in terms of permeability, but I think it's safe to assume that not much H2 is lost through the PET (especially in a weeks time).

 

It seems the hydrogen atom is so small that in general it can react with most materials. Given the potential for explosion, the plastic at least is unlikely to produce shrapnel as metal or glass could.

 

In running down the corrosive effects of Hydrogen I found this article well suited to this thread as well as the H core discussion.

 

OilPro - Tech Notes - Corrosion is just the pits

... Hydrogen Corrosion

 

I learned about Hydrogen Corrosion from Mr. Hank Andersen of Andersen Quality Assurance and Consulting Inc., when we were inspecting a used treater. Hydrogen may cause a number of problems, and I most often see hydrogen corrosion in pressure vessels. Hydrogen is a small enough molecule that it can migrate through steel and remain inside the material. Hydrogen atoms are formed due to chemical reactions caused elsewhere in the process. Once the single atom meets up with another Hydrogen, it becomes a larger molecule, which can no longer migrate back out of the material. ...

[freeztar]

It seems the hydrogen atom is so small that in general it can react with most materials. Given the potential for explosion, the plastic at least is unlikely to produce shrapnel as metal or glass could.

 

In running down the corrosive effects of Hydrogen I found this article well suited to this thread as well as the H core discussion.

 

OilPro - Tech Notes - Corrosion is just the pits

 

:) Awesome info dude! :)

 

Before I posted my previous post, I thought about the H2 factor but left it out because I don't know much about hydrogen interactions.

 

So the leading question becomes: Has anyone studied the interaction of H with PET? The wiki says that H2O and PET creates a situation where, upon application of heat exceeding 160 degrees C, the PET undergoes hydrolysis and it's structure is weakened as a result.

 

Dryer residence time should not be shorter than about four hours. This is because drying the material in less than 4 hours would require a temperature above 160 °C, at which level hydrolysis would begin inside the pellets before they could be dried out.

Polyethylene terephthalate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[modest]

:edepress:

 

Turtle,

 

Freeztar was pointing over this way from social sciences and after reading this - I must say: fantastic thread, ingenuity, curiosity, and all-around-good-hypography-ing. I've gotta "spread some around" before "giving it again" so I offer a public thank you for the good reading.

 

-modest

[freeztar]

... so I offer a public thank you for the good reading.

 

Ah, good...you've found the thread with a puzzle fit for Modest the modest chemist mouse. :edepress:

 

What is the "funk" that Turtle accrued in his bottles? What chemical reactions may have caused this? Video here:

http://hypography.com/forums/science-projects-homework/13409-hydrogen-product-photovoltaic-electolytic-cell-2.html#post197223

[Turtle]

:Bump2:

 

Turtle,

 

Freeztar was pointing over this way from social sciences and after reading this - I must say: fantastic thread, ingenuity, curiosity, and all-around-good-hypography-ing. I've gotta "spread some around" before "giving it again" so I offer a public thank you for the good reading.

 

-modest

 

:D ;) Muchas gracias. :edepress: No worries on the oleo as I lost track of it when they stopped putting it on the table. :D

Funny this came up this way though, as today I was wondering to myself whether or not you had run across a few other choice threads. ;)

 

Well thens good Drs., on to the chemical analysis of the ooky-goo. :D :hihi:

[REASON]

Just so you know, Turtle, I've been reading this all night as well and you sure make an experiment like this fun for the rest of us.

 

Bravo! :edepress:

[Turtle]

Just so you know, Turtle, I've been reading this all night as well and you sure make an experiment like this fun for the rest of us.

 

Bravo! :D

 

Takk Reasonator. I aim to please...you aim too please. :edepress: Ooooo... that reminds me; I wonder what electrolysis does to a urine electrolyte? ;) :hihi:

[freeztar]

I wonder what electrolysis does to a urine electrolyte? :hihi: :edepress:

 

It takes the piss out of it. ;)

[modest]

There is such a thing as "anode sludge". I can't find a good source on it, but there's a bit here:

 

Printed Circuit Board Materials Handbook - Google Book Search

 

Basically, when you use a copper anode it will oxidize and literally dissolve. If there are impurities or anything else in the water then it could form even more sludgier stuff I guess.

 

I'll try and find a better source on it, but I'm sure that's what it's called: "anode sludge". That is the anode, yeah? And, it is copper?

 

-modest

[modest]

Here we go, this is a better link:

 

Advanced Chemistry - Google Book Search

 

I think this is what's going on with the sludge :edepress:

[Turtle]

There is such a thing as "anode sludge". I can't find a good source on it, but there's a bit here:

 

Printed Circuit Board Materials Handbook - Google Book Search

 

Basically, when you use a copper anode it will oxidize and literally dissolve. If there are impurities or anything else in the water then it could form even more sludgier stuff I guess.

 

I'll try and find a better source on it, but I'm sure that's what it's called: "anode sludge". That is the anode, yeah? And, it is copper?

 

-modest

Both copper electrodes, yes, and the sludge accumulating at the terminal connected to the Negative side of the photo-voltaic panel in the vessel collecting the Hydrogen.

 

Now just when I thought I knew an anode from a cathode, you pressed me to show it and in checking up, I'm more confused than ever. :edepress: I'll give a source and throw it up for discussion. :hihi:How to Define Anode and Cathode

[modest]

Both copper electrodes, yes, and the sludge accumulating at the terminal connected to the Negative side of the photo-voltaic panel in the vessel collecting the Hydrogen.

 

Now just when I thought I knew an anode from a cathode, you pressed me to show it and in checking up, I'm more confused than ever. :edepress: I'll give a source and throw it up for discussion. :hihi:How to Define Anode and Cathode

 

That would be your cathode then. Your cathode really shouldn't oxidize like that - nor form a sludge. That is odd. Let me think on this...

 

You weren't getting any oxygen right? I'm guessing the chlorine ion was being oxidized to chlorine gas that was then immediately redissolved. So, the side with no gas would have to be the positive anode - which would confirm your terminals but make the sludge an oddity.

 

Ok, still thinking...