Why is there no contact with ET civs as yet ?

[snoopy]

Why has there been no contact from outer space or more precisely why dont we hear the chatter of millions of civs sending radio signals to each other ??

 

I have been thinking about this one for a while.

 

and I cant get away from the idea that it is because of a level of technology has not yet been reached that will allow us to communicate with other civilisations in the known universe.

 

More precisely our level of communication technology is poor...

 

In other words radio or EM communication is not the beginning and end of modern communication and there must be something else we are missing.

 

I am not proposing an attack on Einstein.

 

Einsteins relativity must be preserved in this discussion as there has so far been no fault found with it.

 

So all ideas on how superluminal communication could be achieved (because in practical terms that is what is needed for communicating between the stars unless you are happy with waiting for years to a reply to your question.) must be in accordance with relativity.

 

I also reject out of hand (although I may be wrong) that we are the only civilisation that has radio or that we are the only civilisation in the known universe, as I suspect that there should be millions of civs in the universe that posess far greater technological power than we currently do.

 

This is an assumption I know but some things that are true just have a certain feeling about them and this is one of them.

 

A quantum entangled radio system could be the answer...

 

but this is unsatisfactory as then you couldnt eavesdrop on what the aliens were saying or you would need to steal one of their entangled devices to do so.... which isnt likely....

 

So as far as I know we are left with Tachyons...

 

I know some people on here dont like them but they are still our best and greatest hope of realising we are indeed not alone.

 

I am of the opinion that radio communication will only last 500 years or so (thereabouts)

and this is why the universe is devoid of alien radio signals

(cos' they find some thing better)

 

If the period of radio signals in any given civilisation is only 500 years or so then you would be unlikely to pick up any radio signals.(which is our situation at present)

 

Given that there should be millions of civs in the universe it is strange we havent picked up their radio chatter not even one of them despite the vast expanses of space and time to overcome.

 

Am I really alone in thinking that this situation is unusual ?

 

I dont know only you can answer that one.

 

But if radio(or EM wave production) is the beginning and end of modern communication then we may have to come to the conclusion we are the only civ in the universe to have discovered radio.

 

A chilling thought indeed.

 

I think I will leave it at that for now.

 

Peace

:phones:

[Tormod]

Radio is already being phased out in favor of cable/digital/satellite. The ground-based radio network will probably disappear in the not-too-far future. 500 years is too optimistic IMHO - I think a few decades is enough to see it go. It won't vanish completely but the window in which radio signals make the Earth a noise place in space will be brief.

 

The SETI institute have discussed this on several occasions and one possibility they list to explain why we do not see "ET" is that out of all the billions of years, we have searched for such a brief time that finding something would be a bullseye at first try. We simply need to look for much longer in order to validate the results.

 

Space is huge, and distances extreme.

[snoopy]

Radio is already being phased out in favor of cable/digital/satellite. The ground-based radio network will probably disappear in the not-too-far future. 500 years is too optimistic IMHO - I think a few decades is enough to see it go. It won't vanish completely but the window in which radio signals make the Earth a noise place in space will be brief.

 

The SETI institute have discussed this on several occasions and one possibility they list to explain why we do not see "ET" is that out of all the billions of years, we have searched for such a brief time that finding something would be a bullseye at first try. We simply need to look for much longer in order to validate the results.

 

Space is huge, and distances extreme.

 

 

Yes I concede all that but really there shoul be millions of civs using radio for millions of years even if they died out we might/should still be able to pick up their radio signals. If that is all there is.........

 

To me its a big if I cant help the feeling that we are missing something maybe the new machine at cern will let us glimpse something we havent thought of yet I dont know........

 

Just thinking out loud and wondering what other forum memebers thought about the silence of the universe and what it means.

 

Just me being me I guess... :)

 

By the way I love your new Avatar Tormod very cool...

 

Peace

:)

[Jet2]

I think you definitely not alone snoopy.

Someone like you but in other civs yet they are not using radio (or EM wave production)may have the same question in their head over and over again...

[Little Bang]

I think the must rational reason, from observing the human race for 63 of my 68 years, is actually pretty simple. We can communicate at the speed of light and as far as we know there are no methods faster, nor do we see any phenomena that implies that a faster method exists. There must also be some limit to our ability to receive signals from our distant neighbors.I do not know for sure but I would think a signal from Andromeda, unless beamed directly at us with an enormous power source, would be undetectable. Therefore we need to observe at some reasonable distance. For the sake of this discussion I'll pick our galaxy about 300 billion stars. Out of the 300 billion I think the current estimate is that 0.10 percent might have a planet that could evolve life. That leaves us with 3 million and of those we'll say one percent could have intelligent life. That's about 300,000 civilizations in our galaxy. The only civilization that I have had the opportunity to observe is our own so lets try to guess how long we well be around. There is a significant number of scientist that think we may have already past the point of no return and won't survive another 500 years. Myself, I don't think we will make it another two hundred. Let's say that we make it another 10,000 years. That means we have been able to detect and communicate with other civilizations for ten thousand years. Our planet has been going around our star for 4.5 billion years. That means we have only been able to communicate with other civilizations for 0.00022% of the suns existence. This implies to me that civilizations are like fireflies in the night. They blink on and off, we never blink on at the same time.

[snoopy]

This implies to me that civilizations are like fireflies in the night. They blink on and off, we never blink on at the same time.

 

 

How pessimistic...

 

I think we will be around for millions of years at least, I am not big on the world is going to end theories at all....

 

Even if space travel is limited by rocket engines with advances in medical science and the eventual progression to an almost immortal human on the distant horizon, space travel even at sublight speeds is definitely possible.

 

I guess I am more optimistic and a great believer in a more enlightened and happier future for humanity.

 

I think ET is definitely out there but not using radio....

 

With their telescope technology far in excess of ours they must know our planet is a living one but they havent come to visit us, so I guess I sort of imply from this, that living planets are not rare which again I am a great believer in. I think the galaxy never mind the universe is teeming with life but not all living planets will have developed civs.

 

I thank you for your views, very interesting even if I find them a little pessimistic, thank you for joining the debate and giving me your views on this

rather hypothetical situation.

 

Peace

:)

[Little Bang]

you could say I'm pessimistic, personally I'm about 93% sure that even if you shut off the use of fossil fuels today the average temp would still climb 12.5 degrees over the next hundred years. The last time that happened it wiped out 99% of all life 250 million years ago

[Qfwfq]

So all ideas on how superluminal communication could be achieved (because in practical terms that is what is needed for communicating between the stars unless you are happy with waiting for years to a reply to your question.) must be in accordance with relativity.

When you have figured out how to communicate faster than c, it won't be too hard to figure how to send me the lottery numbers so that I'll receive them in time to play them. I'll be willing to split the jackpot 50-50.

 

A quantum entangled radio system could be the answer...

Quantum entanglement does not provide a way to send a message.

 

So as far as I know we are left with Tachyons...

 

I know some people on here dont like them but they are still our best and greatest hope of realising we are indeed not alone.

If they exist and if they can be used to send messages, same as above.

 

IMHO, some of those civilizations out there are still battling over the fertile crescent, the silk road and the spice road. Others are broadcasting soap operas and, among these, there are signals that haven't reached us yet and those that have, but we have no hope of discerning and deciphering them.

[snoopy]

When you have figured out how to communicate faster than c, it won't be too hard to figure how to send me the lottery numbers so that I'll receive them in time to play them. I'll be willing to split the jackpot 50-50.

 

I honestly think that superluminal signals if they exist and I know its a big if

wont travel back in time although they will apppear to from a distant observers point of view.

Quantum entanglement does not provide a way to send a message.

 

Well people are trying....

 

IMHO, some of those civilizations out there are still battling over the fertile crescent, the silk road and the spice road. Others are broadcasting soap operas and, among these, there are signals that haven't reached us yet and those that have, but we have no hope of discerning and deciphering them.

 

perhaps some but I think there should or could be a million years more advanced than us and if they were using just radio for all that time the universe should be teeming with ET signals which we should have picked up almost as soon as we had radio telescopes large enough to detect weak signals which we do have, of course we would have no idea what they were saying or what encryption they would be using I concede that, but at least we would know they were there.

 

Just some musings not to be taken too seriously thats all :)

 

Peace

:)

[FrankM]

Well people are trying....

perhaps some but I think there should or could be a million years more advanced than us and if they were using just radio for all that time the universe should be teeming with ET signals which we should have picked up almost as soon as we had radio telescopes large enough to detect weak signals which we do have, of course we would have no idea what they were saying or what encryption they would be using I concede that, but at least we would know they were there.

 

Not necessarily, even if they were using "just radio". After a little over 100 years most of our high power signals directed outward are digitized to provide bandwidth efficient modulation processes (BEMPs). Even if the radio telescope signal processors are looking for BEMPs they would be difficult to find even if ETs had no intention to hide them. We already know that spread spectrum techniques are used to produce BEMPs and their emissions look just like noise.

[Dracontes]

That's called the Fermi paradox.

 

I think the clincher here is the contingency of the evolution of sufficiently inteligent life with the characteristics necessary for us to understand them at the pertinent time for us to listen to them.

What are the odds of that?!

Quite probably there is life elsewhere in the universe, but certainly not all instances of existance of it will have the needed selective pressures to develop accordingly to Humanity's hopes and desires of not being alone in the universe. Look at life on Earth, for example: only one branch, as far as we know, among thousands, developed a technologically able inteligence and we, Hominidae, were loitering at it for most of the time.

 

Not necessarily, even if they were using "just radio". After a little over 100 years most of our high power signals directed outward are digitized to provide bandwidth efficient modulation processes (BEMPs). Even if the radio telescope signal processors are looking for BEMPs they would be difficult to find even if ETs had no intention to hide them. We already know that spread spectrum techniques are used to produce BEMPs and their emissions look just like noise.

 

Well that just throws a monkey wrench into the whole SETI thing. I'd think the odds of us having the technology for decoding such signals are staggeringly against. Oh, well... :(

[modest]

I just solved the drake equation for the first time - these are the honest-to-god values I used:

 

R (stars formed per year) = 6

fp (fraction that have planets) = 0.9

ne = (fraction of fp that can develop life) = 0.0005

fl = (fraction of ne that will develop life) = 1

fi = (fraction of fl that will develop intelligence) = 0.1

fc = (fraction of fi that will build communication equipment) = 0.5

L = (time fc will communicate [yrs]) 15000

 

[imath] Signals_t = R\times{f_p}\times{n_e}\times{f_l}\times{f_i}\times{f_c}\times{L}[/imath]

 

[imath]Signals_t = 6 \times.9 \times .0005 \times 1 \times .1 \times .5 \times 15000 [/imath]

 

[imath]Signals_t = \textbf{2.025} [/imath]

 

:) According to my guess, there's one other species in our galaxy that we can detect at any given time - if we're listening hard enough :)

 

- modest (listening)

[Boerseun]

The problem lies not so much in decoding the signal. We shouldn't have to decode it in order to know it's Intelligent. The radio signatures of natural radio-frequency emmissions and manmade radio emmissions are vastly different. You can easily pick up secret low-frequency transmissions between US nuclear subs and their bases without having the faintest idea of how even to begin to decipher the meaning of it - but you will know it's artificial; a sure sign of intelligence.

 

The problem is in signal brightness, I think.

 

Look at any given star:

 

They are very faint, mere pinpricks in the sky. Yet that is the result of an enormous sun-sized radio transmitter's transmission having traversed the lightyears between itself and your eyeball. The frequency of light is a small portion of the EM spectrum, but the concept stays the same. If we broadcast in the radio spectrum bright enough to match the total energy output of the sun, our transmission would look in the radio spectrum like a star does visually. And our radio broadcast energy is not even a tenth of a tenth of a tenth of a tenth... (insert absurd number of tenths here) ...of a tenth that of the energy output of the sun.

 

If you knew where you were beaming your transmission, that would've been a different story altogether, of course.

 

But digital and cable broadcasts as being a sign of us moving away from RF broadcasting is wrong. We're still bouncing our emails, jokes, hypo chats and porn searches off satellites, the biggest (by far) portion of which misses the satellite completely, the digital burst of you looking for naked pics of Hillary Clinton forever traversing space. That signal, if it was to be detected, would give away our presence on Earth - there's no natural process that can come up with such a stupid web search.

[Eclogite]

Why has there been no contact from outer space or more precisely why dont we hear the chatter of millions of civs sending radio signals to each other ??

There are several possible explanations. I suggest all of these have to be seriously considered if we consider the question to be important.

1. There are no other civilisations within contact range of the Earth.

2. Other civilisations have no interest in communicating with us, or anyone else.

3. As a young civilisation we are quarantined, until we mature.

4. The hostile character of one or more civilisations makes it sensible to keep your head down, or have it bitten off.

5. We have been contacted, but those in authority have chosen (or been required) to keep this secret.

6. The technology used by the alien civilisations does not use radio.

7. There are few civilisations in contact range of the Earth and we simply haven't looked long enough and hard enough and in the right places.

 

There are probably a few more.:doh:

[snoopy]

Thank you all for posting,

 

I think its interesting the wide variety of ways you came at this question and shows the different characters we all have.

 

I think probably I agree most with Eclogite apart from contingency No5.

 

I dont think we have been contacted and the authorities are repressing it.

 

But is been very helpful thanks.

 

Peace :eek2:

[Little Bang]

Snoop, let's say that there are several million civilizations in our galaxy. It would stand to reason that at least some would be equal to or less technologically advanced than us. If that where the case why wouldn't we pick up some signals? There can be only one reason, they are not there. They well be or have been but not now.

[snoopy]

Snoop, let's say that there are several million civilizations in our galaxy. It would stand to reason that at least some would be equal to or less technologically advanced than us. If that where the case why wouldn't we pick up some signals? There can be only one reason, they are not there. They well be or have been but not now.

 

I dont think there would be several million in our galaxy but I do expect there to be a few thousand, and millions in our local supergroup of galaxies.

 

Even in that case I expect some to be less tech advanced some to be equal and some more advanced.

 

Maybe they are not there but I find it too disappointing to be true... so I suspend my rationality........... look to the nights sky with all the countless dots of light and wonder...

 

Peace

:eek_big: