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[coberst]

“Repay to the living that it is they find themselves owing the dead”

 

This phrase is part of an article “Coming to Terms with Vietnam” documented in Harpers by Peter Marin, Dec. 1980. "Coming to terms with Vietnam: Settling our moral debts" by Peter Marin (Harper's Magazine)

 

"All men, like all nations, are tested twice in the moral realm: first by what they do, then by what they make of what they do. The condition of guilt, a sense of one's own guilt, denotes a kind of second chance. Men are, as if by a kind of grace, given a chance to repay to the living that it is they find themselves owing the dead.""

 

This quotation rang my bell on the first time that I read it and has continued to resonate for me each time that it comes to mind.

 

Morality is, I am convinced, one of the most important concepts in human existence. It is vitally important and, I suspect, almost completely mystifying to the average Joe and Jane. It certainly is mystifying to me.

 

Understanding the meaning of this concept is vital for our welfare as a species and I am convinced that we must do a better job of comprehending its meaning.

 

I think it would be worth while to analyze the above quotation in an effort to develop a meaningful comprehension of aspects that make up morality. But there are many important moral aspects within this quotation and I think we must focus upon only one at a time. I would like to examine, in particular, the phrase “repay to the living that it is they find themselves owing the dead”

 

Cognitive science, often in the form of cognitive semantics, provides us with a means for comprehending the nature of morality.

 

Cognitive science has discovered that “the source domains of our [linguistic] metaphors for morality are typically based on what people over history and across cultures have seen as contributing to their well being”.

 

Morality is primarily seen as a concept that focuses upon enhancing the well-being of others. Cognitive analysis revels that we comprehend morality “based on this simple list of elementary aspects of human well-being—health, wealth, strength, balance, protection, nurturance, and so on”.

 

“Well-Being is Wealth is not our only metaphorical conception of well-being, but it is a component of one of the most important moral concepts we have. It is the basis for a massive metaphor system by which we understand our moral interactions, obligations, and responsibilities. That system, which we call the Moral Accounting metaphor, combines Well-Being is Wealth with other metaphors and with various accounting schemas.”

 

Our moral understanding is often manifested in commonly used metaphors. To do bad to someone is like taking something of value from that person. To do good to someone is like giving something of value to that person. “Increasing others’ well-being gives you a moral credit; doing them harm creates a moral debt to them; that is, you owe them an increase in their well-being-as-wealth.”

 

We are dealing with moral considerations much as we do with financial matters. We maintain a mental balance sheet upon which we record debits and credits of moral dimensions.

 

Morality is about many things and one thing morality is about is reciprocation, which means paying back to others what we owe to them because of something good they did for us. On the flip-side of that is something we call revenge. Revenge is about our feelings that if Mary Ann does something mean to me then I owe her something mean back.

 

Morality is partly about our moral accounting system. We seem to have a moral balance sheet in our head and we are often careful to pay back ‘good with good’ and ‘bad with bad’.

 

Ideas and quotes from “Philosophy in the Flesh”—Lakoff and Johnson

 

Do you think that it is possible to make a moral payback to John, who died in the war, by doing a moral good such as helping the nation to become a better democracy?

[nutronjon]

“Repay to the living that it is they find themselves owing the dead”

 

This phrase is part of an article “Coming to Terms with Vietnam” documented in Harpers by Peter Marin, Dec. 1980. "Coming to terms with Vietnam: Settling our moral debts" by Peter Marin (Harper's Magazine)

 

"All men, like all nations, are tested twice in the moral realm: first by what they do, then by what they make of what they do. The condition of guilt, a sense of one's own guilt, denotes a kind of second chance. Men are, as if by a kind of grace, given a chance to repay to the living that it is they find themselves owing the dead.""

 

This quotation rang my bell on the first time that I read it and has continued to resonate for me each time that it comes to mind.

 

Morality is, I am convinced, one of the most important concepts in human existence. It is vitally important and, I suspect, almost completely mystifying to the average Joe and Jane. It certainly is mystifying to me.

 

Understanding the meaning of this concept is vital for our welfare as a species and I am convinced that we must do a better job of comprehending its meaning.

 

I think it would be worth while to analyze the above quotation in an effort to develop a meaningful comprehension of aspects that make up morality. But there are many important moral aspects within this quotation and I think we must focus upon only one at a time. I would like to examine, in particular, the phrase “repay to the living that it is they find themselves owing the dead”

 

Cognitive science, often in the form of cognitive semantics, provides us with a means for comprehending the nature of morality.

 

Cognitive science has discovered that “the source domains of our [linguistic] metaphors for morality are typically based on what people over history and across cultures have seen as contributing to their well being”.

 

Morality is primarily seen as a concept that focuses upon enhancing the well-being of others. Cognitive analysis revels that we comprehend morality “based on this simple list of elementary aspects of human well-being—health, wealth, strength, balance, protection, nurturance, and so on”.

 

“Well-Being is Wealth is not our only metaphorical conception of well-being, but it is a component of one of the most important moral concepts we have. It is the basis for a massive metaphor system by which we understand our moral interactions, obligations, and responsibilities. That system, which we call the Moral Accounting metaphor, combines Well-Being is Wealth with other metaphors and with various accounting schemas.”

 

Our moral understanding is often manifested in commonly used metaphors. To do bad to someone is like taking something of value from that person. To do good to someone is like giving something of value to that person. “Increasing others’ well-being gives you a moral credit; doing them harm creates a moral debt to them; that is, you owe them an increase in their well-being-as-wealth.”

 

We are dealing with moral considerations much as we do with financial matters. We maintain a mental balance sheet upon which we record debits and credits of moral dimensions.

 

Morality is about many things and one thing morality is about is reciprocation, which means paying back to others what we owe to them because of something good they did for us. On the flip-side of that is something we call revenge. Revenge is about our feelings that if Mary Ann does something mean to me then I owe her something mean back.

 

Morality is partly about our moral accounting system. We seem to have a moral balance sheet in our head and we are often careful to pay back ‘good with good’ and ‘bad with bad’.

 

Ideas and quotes from “Philosophy in the Flesh”—Lakoff and Johnson

 

Do you think that it is possible to make a moral payback to John, who died in the war, by doing a moral good such as helping the nation to become a better democracy?

 

That was very thought provoking, and I am afraid, due to your last question, my response would take thread off course? But than, my response could also be what you are digging for?

 

I recieve what was written on many different levels. I asked myself, do I feel personally responsible for the harm the US did to Vietnam, and my answer is no. I opposed that war and oppose the present wars in which the US is engaged. However, I think as a nation, the US holds a moral responsibility to pay restitution to Vietnam. But your last question was not about making things with Vietnam. Your question is kind of like an Alfred Hitchcock twist to me. Like if my mother steals a coach from my neighbors, and then dies, and I make a hole in the couch, am I morally obligated to my mother to fix the couch, so she can rest easy in her grave? Kind of like skipping over the fact she stold the couch, and perhaps it is the neighbors to whom the moral debt is owed. I thought you were getting at, do we owe restitution to the Vietnam, the native Americans, and if Christian- to all the people wronged by Christianity. But forgetting all those who have been victimized except our our own dead?

 

Can I move your question to WWI and WWII? We sent thousands of men to kill and die in these wars, and we told them they were defending democracy. I strongly think we owe it to them to improve our democracy. Instead we have eternalized our enemy and perverted our democracy. The US is now what it defended its democracy against. I think this gravely immoral, and means we have fought all wars for nothing that can be morally justified.

[coberst]

nutronjon

 

Evidently this quotation has rung your bell just as it did mine. This is something that can be examined from many aspects upon many situations. I have had a few responses to this post on another forum and the responses have frightened me. I get a terrifying impression that many young people have no fundamental contact with the concept of morality.

[nutronjon]

nutronjon

 

Evidently this quotation has rung your bell just as it did mine. This is something that can be examined from many aspects upon many situations. I have had a few responses to this post on another forum and the responses have frightened me. I get a terrifying impression that many young people have no fundamental contact with the concept of morality.

 

;) My life purpose is raising awareness of what replacing liberal education with education for technology, has done to our society. And you are right, the quote can be addressed in many different ways. As I was reading it, I was thinking conscience depends on awareness. Awareness depends on what we learn. Our learning depends on life experiences and teachers.

 

Socrates, and I believe Locke and Jefferson, would agree the most important education is one that prepares the our conscience. Notice the word science in conscience? It goes with the concept of natural law, of which the quote speaks. The Quote assumes a conscience, an uneasy feeling when a wrong is done, and need to do something to ease that feeling. But as you said of the son feeling self esteem when stoning his sister, this experience of self esteem or remorse depends on what was learned. As we can see, feelings of self esteem and remorse may have little to do with natural law, and everything to do with what we learn.

 

This means, democracy doesn't work without education with the purpose of transmitting a culture, where people have a learned conscience, before attempting to govern themselves and lead those around them. Our young do not have this. They are left with base animal instinct to judge right and wrong, and this is having devastating ramifications. Education for technology is amoral, and amoral people can not have liberty, therefore there is growing authority above them and they believe this is a necessary. They think our freedom means, free to do anything we want to do, and they have no understanding of natural law. Result is being ruled by lust and amoral. :doh:

[coberst]

nutronjon

 

 

I share your life purpose. I am a retied engineer who has been actively engaged in an attempt to help others to become conscious of important ideas. I might just state here what my understanding of comprehension is.

 

Comprehension might be usefully thought of as a hierarchy something like a pyramid. Awareness is at the base of the pyramid followed by consciousness. I consider consciousness in this regard to be awareness plus attention. I think that people are aware of many things without ever becoming conscious of these things. My goal with posting on the Internet forums is to help people to become conscious of important ideas of which they are not presently conscious of. My hope in posting is to make the reader curious about these important ideas such that the reader will turn to the books in an effort to become knowledgeable.

 

Continuing with my pyramid analogy I find knowing follows consciousness with understanding at the pinnacle of the pyramid.

[nutronjon]

nutronjon

 

 

I share your life purpose. I am a retied engineer who has been actively engaged in an attempt to help others to become conscious of important ideas. I might just state here what my understanding of comprehension is.

 

Comprehension might be usefully thought of as a hierarchy something like a pyramid. Awareness is at the base of the pyramid followed by consciousness. I consider consciousness in this regard to be awareness plus attention. I think that people are aware of many things without ever becoming conscious of these things. My goal with posting on the Internet forums is to help people to become conscious of important ideas of which they are not presently conscious of. My hope in posting is to make the reader curious about these important ideas such that the reader will turn to the books in an effort to become knowledgeable.

 

Continuing with my pyramid analogy I find knowing follows consciousness with understanding at the pinnacle of the pyramid.

 

 

I will agree with you, and now I am challenged to bring this back to the subject of the thread. For what did we kill people and ask our young men to give up their lives?

 

When we entered WWI the battle cry was, "democracy and autocracy can not co exist". In WWI and WWII we were told we were defending democracy, and yet, we modeled our industry after England's autocracy, and if the Federalist had had their way, the US would have been much more autocratic from the beginning. We stopped using public education to transmitting the culture that is essential to democracy with liberty, and have unleashed autocracy which is destroying our own democracy and liberty. This means we fought every war for nothing, and now there is no moral justication for all those who died in wars to defend democracy. And we find ourselves owing nothing to the dead:eek: Could anything be more immoral than this?

[coberst]

Nutron

 

CA (Corporate America) has developed a well-honed expertise in motivating the population to behave in a desired manner. Citizens as consumers are ample manifestation of that expertise. CA has accomplished this ability by careful study and implementation of the knowledge of the ways of human behavior. I suspect this same structure applies to most Western democracies.

 

A democratic form of government is one wherein the citizens have some voice in some policy decisions. The greater the voice of the citizens the better the democracy.

 

In America we have policy makers, decision makers, and citizens. The decision makers are our elected representatives and are, thus, under some control by the voting citizen. The policy makers are the leaders of CA; less than ten thousand individuals, according to those who study such matters. Policy makers exercise significant control of decision makers by controlling the financing of elections.

 

Policy makers customize and maintain the dominant ideology in order to control the political behavior of the citizens. This dominant ideology exercises the political control of the citizens in the same fashion as the consuming citizen is controlled by the same dominant ideology.

 

An enlightened citizen is the only means to gain more voice in more policy decisions. An enlightened citizen is much more than an informed citizen. Critical thinking is the only practical means to develop a more enlightened citizen. If, however, we wait until our CT trained grade-schoolers become adults I suspect all will be lost. This is why I think a massive effort must be made to convince today’s adults that they must train themselves in CT.

 

Our culture is controled by CA and will remain so until our citizens become much more intellectually sophisticated than they now are. The only way that our citizens can become more intellectually sophisticated is if they become self-actualizing self-learners. What we must do is to convince 0.5% of the population to become self-actualizing self-learners when their school daze are over.

 

 

“Thomas R. Dye, Professor of Political Science at Florida State University, has published a series of books examining who and what institutions actually control and run America. to understand who is making the decisions that affect our lives, we also have to understand how societies structure themselves in general. Why the few always tend to share more power than the many and what this means in terms of both a society's evolution and our daily lives. they examined the other 11 institutions that exert just as powerful a shaping influence, although somewhat more subtle: The Industrial, Corporations, Utilities and Communications, Banking, Insurance Investment, Mass Media, Law, Education Foundation, Civic and Cultural Organizations, Government, and the Military.”

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