What Americans, USAans, yanks, beleive.

[Michaelangelica]

,

our prisons are full of *repeat* afenders.

So what are you "correcting' or teaching in jail?

 

How are prisoners followed up after jail?

 

When I was growing up Our lives were governed by the Ten Commandments, good judgment, and common sense.

Yes see my recent post on Quirky history facts. the world is changing.

Isn't one of the Ten Commandments "You should not kill" yet you allow capital punishment.

Uzbekistan has just eliminated the use of the death penalty. You would think that would shame The USA a little.

 

And I don't have all of the answers,

I doubt if anyone has, but from where I sit you guys are loosing.

Over 9 million people are held in penal institutions

throughout the world, mostly as pre-trial detainees

(remand prisoners) or having been convicted

and sentenced.

Almost half of these are in the

United States (2.09m), China (1.55m plus pretrial

detainees and prisoners in ‘administrative

detention’) or Russia (0.76m).

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/world-prison-population-list-2005.pdf

The United States has the highest prison

population rate in the world, some 714 per 100,000

of the national population, followed by Belarus,

Bermuda and Russia (all 532), Palau (523), U.S.

Virgin Islands (490), Turkmenistan (489), Cuba

(487), Suriname (437), Cayman Islands (429), Belize

(420), Ukraine (417), Maldive Islands (416), St Kitts

and Nevis (415), South Africa (413) and Bahamas

(410)

.

Oz has c 117 per 100,000, Canada 116, about 6 times less than the USA.

Dow we follow the 10 commandments better than the USA or have respectful kids? I don't think so. We do have better social security systems.

 

In OZ most (over 50%) criminals have problems reading and writing. Except for the 10% of Corporate criminals who's skills in these areas are too good.

Teaching people to read and write seems to me to be a good start as you can't really engage in modern society without these skills.

 

A local prison reform group says

we witness more and more people going into prisons each year. We would like to see more than ‘different’,

we want to see alternatives, for we can see worldwide that prisons can, through their institutional structures and culture, produce crime.

They also frequently fail to reduce victimisation, or resolve long standing anti-social behaviours, address past traumas and heal the aftermath of crime.

Prison Reform Group of Western Australia

Not a bad wish list

 

In surveys few felt prison should be solely about retribution rather than rehabilitation.Yet we spend very little on it. Once people are locked away they are forgotten. State Government have many other more voter-popular-issues to spend their money on.

 

Lately we have been putting a lot of people in Jail, following your lead and admonishment if we don't, for drug offences.We have doubled the number of females in jail in the last 4-5 years mostly via drug offences.

I would like to see driug offences treated in hospitals and rehab not jails.

 

Like you we have put black people in jail more frequently that white.

 

He spent 18 years on death row. and I think that is too long.

Cruel and inhuman punishment, but good to see he was a Good Christian to the end.

 

Perhaps this whole Prison thing needs to be in its own thread. I am a bit like most other Australians with prison reform hardly on my radar- much to my shame.

[Racoon]

Well Micheal, you can attribute our high number of incarcerated individuals to a highly trained and effective police force! :naughty:

 

And all the wonderful lawyers and DA's who do their job with diligence to keep our cities safe. :naughty:

 

I'm not going to go into the Illegal Immigration debate again yet, but there's a ton of additional crime thanks to those individuals. If other countries had the same problem of unfettered access of tens of millions of illegals too, you'd probably see an increase in their prison numbers as well.

 

The War on Drugs is a major reason there are so many people locked away. Ridiculous sentences and bad, antiquated policies.

I agree with your rehab instead of incarceration approach, If there wasn't a violent crime or robbery attached to it..

 

 

Bureau of Justice Statistics Key Crime and Justice Facts at a Glance

 

I really don't think Capital Punishment is a big problem. Very few get executed anymore.

In 2007 there were only 42 death sentence that were completed.

Thats less than 1 in 7,142,850 people.

 

Did you really lose sleep over them?? Was your moral outrage of the execution of 42 of the most violent criminal minded Americans enough to make you spit out your tea in disgust?... To purchase a plane ticket, fly to Washington DC, and Lobby on the steps of Congress!?

In this day and age, with all the other problems in this world, are we seriously going to worry about what happens to a few convicted violent murderers? I really don't think so. Maybe for the time it takes to read a few posts and thats it...

 

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Aie yie yie aie aie.....

 

Half of the problem with the modern prison system is that people seem to have forgotten the prison is punishment for misdeeds.

 

It's supposed to be so terrible that convicts never want to go back and therefore reform themselves.

 

Three meals a day, weights, cable tv, internet... sheesh! accept for the fact that I can go where I wish (if I could afford to go anywhere other than work and home) ....

 

In short prisons desperately need to be downgraded back to the hells they were in the good ol days. It used to be people were afriad to go to prison now there are those that commit crimes just to go back! (better than being on the streets...I guess.)

[Michaelangelica]

Seek Understanding - Mental Illness

The execution of those with mental illness or "the insane" is clearly prohibited by international law and virtually every country in the world. Despite these standards, and constitutional law, the USA continues to execute people with diagnosed schizophrenia, those that suffer from severe delusions, and others with clinically-labeled mental illnesses.

 

* Prevention Not Punishment: Educating the Public on the Intersection of the Death Penalty and Severe Mental Illness

* ABA Recommendation

* The Execution of Mentally Ill Offenders

* USA: Supreme Court tightens standard on 'competence' for execution, an analysis of the recent Supreme Court ruling in Panetti v. Quarterman

* Cruel and Inhumane: Executing the Mentally Ill, article from Amnesty Magazine

 

Learn More About State Sponsored Killing in the USA

Since 1977, over 1,000 people have been executed in the U.S.; there are currently around 3,500 men and women on death row across the country. Grassroots activists throughout the USA play an essential role in advocating against this human rights violation through monitoring cases, mobilizing around upcoming events, and lobbying for anti-death penalty legislation.

 

* Facts & Figures (including pending executions, executions by year, state, method)

* Fact Sheets

 

Abolish the Death Penalty

UN calls for halt to executions

The vote took place at the United Nations building, New York City

18 December 2007

UN calls for halt to executions | Amnesty International

 

 

racoon most police forces in the western world are highly trained, and Europe has just as big a illegal migrant 'problem'. Not many counties elect their police forces and AGs though.

 

If you collected some master-carpenters, some average carpenters, and some not so good carpenters, and then locked them up together for a few years in a carpentry shop wouldn't you end up with more highly trained and effective carpenters overall?

[Racoon]

1,000 people executed in the US in the past 30 years?

That doesn't sound like much of a problem to me. :doh:

 

That many innocent kids around the world starve evryday! Or could have been innoculated against a deadly disease. That sounds more like a problem to me.

 

The problem with incarceration rates is this "War on Drugs". The system needs to be overhauled or scrapped entirely.

The death penalty isn't the problem with our prison system. Its but a tiny fraction.

 

Thats what this American Yank believes.

[Michaelangelica]

A May 2004 Gallup Poll found that a growing number of Americans support a sentence of life without parole rather than the death penalty for those convicted of murder.

 

Gallup found that 46% of respondents favor life imprisonment over the death penalty, up from 44% in May 2003.

 

During that same time frame, support for capital punishment as an alternative fell from 53% to 50%.

 

The poll also revealed a growing skepticism that the death penalty deters crime, with 62% of those polled saying that it is not a deterrent.

 

These percentages are a dramatic shift from the responses given to this same question in 1991, when 51% of Americans believed the death penalty deterred crime and only 41% believed it did not.

 

Only 55% of those polled responded that they believed the death penalty is implemented fairly, down from 60% in 2003.

 

When not offered an alternative sentence, 71% supported the death penalty and 26% opposed. The overall support is about the same as that reported in 2002, but down from the 80% support in 1994. (Gallup Poll News Service, June 2, 2004)

Deadline: Just How Many People Are In Favor of the Death Penalty?

[Racoon]

Great Mike.. You don't favor the death penalty.

 

But let me say that not many Americans really give a rip if 42 cop killing,family murdering, SOB's get a needle in their arm this year. Thats a miniscule number

 

Polls are one thing. Capital Punishment is WAY down the list of serious concerns in this country right now.

 

Yeah, in a perfect society, the death penalty would be out of place.

 

Right now, who in their right mind really gives a rat's *** about some MoFo'er who killed people and spent 10 years on death row??

 

Seriously, there are more pressing concerns than the few perps on death row. Sociologically speaking. Mathematically speaking, and Economically speaking.

 

If you want to champion the cause of murder-rapists rights , be everyones guest.

[Zythryn]

This yank is a proponent of the death penalty.

I don't care if it isn't a effective deterent.

I don't support it out of vengence.

I support the death penalty solely on the basis of stopping these murderers from killing again.

That said, it obviously leads to limited cases, IMO, where it should be used.

Serial killers that will continue to do the same if released/escape.

Their guilt is absolutely assured.

The state (government) can't gaurentee society that such an individual would NEVER be released or escape.

I think the 1000 lives lost are worth 2000 innocents saved.

 

However, if we were to stop putting people in prison for minor drug offenses I believe we could get much closer to not needing the death penalty.

[modest]

Racoon,

 

It is more expensive to execute prisoners.

 

North Carolina found it was on average 2.16 million dollars cheaper to incarcerate a murderer for life than execute them. And, reviewing death penalty expenses, Kansas found it 70% more expensive to execute a prisoner than a commenserate non-death penalty case including all costs of incarceration. (source)

 

Another argument against the practice of execution is simply that a person cannot be set free if found innocent after he/she has been executed.

 

Also, there are many countries around the world that will not extradite to the united states. They claim this is because our legal system is barbaric referencing the death penalty. The direct result of the death penalty then, it can be argued, is the freedom of obviously guilty individuals who have fled to other countries.

 

I understand why you are saying it is insignificant, or in your words: "who in their right mind really gives a rat's ***". But, it does cause problems in my humble opinion.

 

Also,

 

If you want to champion the cause of murder-rapists rights , be everyones guest.

 

This statement has an ‘untrue premise’. It also has an ‘appeal to emotion’ and ‘mob appeal’. Supposedly these things are all signs of a bad argument in a debate setting. Here is an example with all three of these problems:

 

Everyone agrees - you need to give all your money to charity or the homeless people that you seem to hate so much are going to starve to death.

 

I’m not much interested in the rules for a good argument in debate. I also realize we're not in a debate class. But, what’s interesting is how ‘untrue premise’ ‘appeal to emotion’ and ‘mob appeal’ are exactly the three things that got Sacco and Vanzetti, 2 innocent people, executed in 1927. I’m not saying that’s significant, just interesting.

 

- modest

[Racoon]

Racoon,

 

It is more expensive to execute prisoners.

 

- modest

 

More expensive to execute than to detain indefinitely forever??

Are you sure about that?

 

Maybe in a few case that were appealed to the hilt with expensive lawyers in a couple states...

Don't mix and match Modest.

 

Other countries refusing to extradite to the US becuz' our laws are Barbaric?

Let them imprison the offenders for life then. Saves our tax-payers as far as I'm concerned.

 

Besides, Read the number of 42 who were actually excuted!

That many people die in traffic accidents in any given week.

Capital Punishment is Not a problem.

 

I find it funny that the same people who are against Capital Punishment are Pro-choice.

 

And those who are anti-abortion are Pro Death Penalty...

 

If you're going to terminate living cells, do it with consistancy!

 

For jesus h. christ

[Buffy]

More expensive to execute than to detain indefinitely forever??

Are you sure about that?

 

Maybe in a few case that were appealed to the hilt with expensive lawyers in a couple states...

Well, most states have endless automatic appeals, so yeah, the numbers do add up for virtually all capital punishment cases.

 

Of course as the Nazi's would point out, there's economies of scale that are not being exploited!

If you're going to terminate living cells, do it with consistancy!

Why be consistent? At least abortions are performed without subjective and possibly incorrect judgments being rendered! Unlike the courts, all zygotes are treated with absolute equanimity!

 

Capital punishment is our society's recognition of the sanctity of human life.”,

Buffy

[modest]

More expensive to execute than to detain indefinitely forever??

Are you sure about that?

 

That's what everything said when I looked it up - I provided a source. One study was done by the state of Kansas which is very conservative, so I don't think it is bias or anti-death-penalty activism. I think it really does cost more.

 

Maybe in a few case that were appealed to the hilt with expensive lawyers in a couple states...

Don't mix and match Modest.

 

Accusing me of 'mixing and matching' - whatever that means - does not detract from the truth of what I have said or the studies that support it. Instead of attacking me you could provide your own support for your own argument.

 

Other countries refusing to extradite to the US becuz' our laws are Barbaric?

Let them imprison the offenders for life then. Saves our tax-payers as far as I'm concerned.

 

That may not be satisfactory to the family of the victim or the prosecutor of the crime. Most importantly - the person who has fled is not always arrested. If arrested, they are sometimes released. Sometimes they are tried and found not guilty. There is no doubt but that capitol punishment complicates extradition and often works towards the fugitive's benefit.

 

Here is a quote from Barbra March. She is the mother of David March - a sheriff's deputy who was killed while on the job in 2002. The man that did the shooting fled to Mexico. His parents have been trying to get the Mexican government to go after the man responsible and trying to get congress to force the Mexican government:

 

We have waited two years and tried to get some justice. What we have found is that law enforcement is very frustrated. They're doing everything they can do, but it appears that [u.S.] law enforcement is wearing the handcuffs in this case, and in many cases like this.

They're not able to get these killers who have fled to Mexico. They're not able to get the Mexican government to extradite these people to come back here for American justice. ... They call it Article 4 of the Mexican Constitution — they will not extradite for murder or rape. Unless it's a predetermined sentence, they will not extradite these criminals.

 

What she means by "predetermined sentence" is how the Mexican government wants to see a verdict - and a verdict without the death penalty - before they will hand him over (or arrest him, apparently)

 

Personally, I don't think the Mexican government is right to deny extradition because we execute and they don't. But, they do have the right. It's this kind of thing that makes the death penalty NOT insignificant as you said it was.

 

Here is another quote from Barbra March which brings up a very good point:

 

Barbara: [Congress didn't know] That this treaty existed, and that people were fleeing California and literally getting away with murder. Not only that, but the incentive is there to murder.

 

Interviewer: How so?

 

Barbara: Because if you rob a convenience store and you get caught, they will extradite for that in Mexico. But if you kill the owner, they won't extradite for that. So the message has been clear — to murder.

This is leaving all of our citizens and our children very vulnerable, unprotected. And the first, the most important duty of the federal government is to honor the sovereignty of the United states and protect us from terrorism.

 

- modest

 

You can find the quotes and story of David March at this web page. It's really something.

[Mike C]

Great Mike.. You don't favor the death penalty.

 

But let me say that not many Americans really give a rip if 42 cop killing,family murdering, SOB's get a needle in their arm this year. Thats a miniscule number

 

Polls are one thing. Capital Punishment is WAY down the list of serious concerns in this country right now.

 

Yeah, in a perfect society, the death penalty would be out of place.

 

Right now, who in their right mind really gives a rat's *** about some MoFo'er who killed people and spent 10 years on death row??

 

Seriously, there are more pressing concerns than the few perps on death row. Sociologically speaking. Mathematically speaking, and Economically speaking.

 

If you want to champion the cause of murder-rapists rights , be everyones guest.

 

This is one Mike that does support capital punishment.

Like I said on an earlier post here that when a verdict is brought in of 'absolute' guilt, then execute.

There are such cases. With this type of conviction, appeals would be reduced to just one or two.

 

This would eliminate the unlimited appeals allowed.

 

Execution can be very cheap since their would be thousands of volenteers that would be willing to do the job for free.

 

Those endless appeals are just done by greedy lawyers that are enriching themselves.

 

Naturally, I would not find a person guilty on slim evidence like an identification of a defendent from 30 feet in the darkness of nights as evidence for a conviction and especially homicide that involves execution.

 

It is all a matter of judgement that does not involve bias or any other such reason.

 

If people can accept religions that performed purification genocides, than why quibble about the salvation of a criminal that killed for his own reasons only.

 

Mike C

[modest]

This is one Mike that does support capital punishment.

 

Do you think the standard used for finding guilt in capitol punishment cases should be different than non-capitol cases. In other words, do you think it should be harder to find a person guilty if there is a chance they could be executed? Is it always 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'?

 

-modest

[DougF]

modest

Do you think the standard used for finding guilt in capitol punishment cases should be different than non-capitol cases. In other words' date=' do you think it should be harder to find a person guilty if there is a chance they could be executed? Is it always 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'? [/quote']

I think i the cases of mas murders 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' should be

'no shadow of a doubt' and i think 30 years on death row before they are put to death is to long, but let me just say, I am in favor of the death penalty but it must be 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'. :doh:

[Michaelangelica]

I think i the cases of mas murders 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' should be

'no shadow of a doubt' and i think 30 years on death row before they are put to death is to long, but let me just say, I am in favor of the death penalty but it must be 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'. :shrug:

Many jurors are now not bringing in a guilty verdict becase they do not want blood on their hands.

There is nearly always a shadow of doubt even with a confession.

[InfiniteNow]

Many jurors are now not bringing in a guilty verdict becase they do not want blood on their hands.

There is nearly always a shadow of doubt even with a confession.

 

How do you teach people that killing is wrong by killing them?