Evolution Must Be Taught in Public Schools

[goku]

If you had never read the Bible or any other religious scripture, wouldn't you still feel it was wrong to throw acid in someone's face? As I said to questor, if I walked up to you and punched you in the face for no reason, would you need a scripture lesson to know that was wrong of me to do? I don't think so. Morality in humans predates formal religious teachings.

 

we're animals remember, is it wrong for two lions to fight over a female?

 

have you ever noticed how children can be soo crule to one another?

it's like they have to be taught how to be nice.

[Galapagos]

To Goku: What sort of evidence would you expect for evolution? It is historic and biological fact about the world that all species have changed over time, or evolved, from one or a few common ancestors. There are millions of pieces of fossil evidence in natural history museums around the world. All DNA on this planet in all organisms forms a continuum; we are all made from the same basic parts that were inherited from common ancestors, and this is confirmed beyond reasonable doubt by our mapped genome. The evidence from paleontology and molecular biology alone are more than conclusive, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Perhaps if you state what would count as evidence for you, such evidence could be presented, or the way you are reasoning about this could be explored.

 

If you are not in fact trolling, I think you will find it easy to accept evolution if you look more closely. You have made clear that you are okay with believing certain things based on no evidence at all(such as your religious beliefs; faith), so evolution, with its magnitude of supporting evidence, should be fairly easy to accept in comparison.

If you are concerned about your beliefs conflicting with the science facts, I would point you to the work of Francis Collins or Ken Miller, both of whom are world-class scientists who observe the fact of evolution in the workplace, but are also practicing Christians.

[goku]

To Goku: What sort of evidence would you expect for evolution? It is historic and biological fact about the world that all species have changed over time, or evolved, from one or a few common ancestors. There are millions of pieces of fossil evidence in natural history museums around the world. All DNA on this planet in all organisms forms a continuum; we are all made from the same basic parts that were inherited from common ancestors, and this is confirmed beyond reasonable doubt by our mapped genome. The evidence from paleontology and molecular biology alone are more than conclusive, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Perhaps if you state what would count as evidence for you, such evidence could be presented, or the way you are reasoning about this could be explored.

 

If you are not in fact trolling, I think you will find it easy to accept evolution if you look more closely. You have made clear that you are okay with believing certain things based on no evidence at all(such as your religious beliefs; faith), so evolution, with its magnitude of supporting evidence, should be fairly easy to accept in comparison.

If you are concerned about your beliefs conflicting with the science facts, I would point you to the work of Francis Collins or Ken Miller, both of whom are world-class scientists who observe the fact of evolution in the workplace, but are also practicing Christians.

 

maybe i understand what trolling means so i wont get into what you think is evidence of evolution.

 

back to the thread: evolution must be taught in public schools

 

i think we should have the right to vote on what is taught, by county.

[REASON]

we're animals remember, is it wrong for two lions to fight over a female?

 

That's a poor analogy. Just because humans and lions are both animals doesn't mean we share the same mental capacity or intellect. You know this. Our brains have evolved to give us the ability to apply reasoning and consider our actions, and not simply behave instinctively.

 

 

have you ever noticed how children can be soo crule to one another?

it's like they have to be taught how to be nice.

 

Yes, children can be cruel. Children often acquire the same behaviors of their cruel parents. But I've also seen children share and be helpful without being prompted as well. Your religious implication is that children are inherently evil. That old fashioned idea was debunked years ago. Children are like a blank slate when they're born, and yes, they have to be taught how to be nice, as well as how to be helpful, and how to speak, and how to brush their teeth, and dress themselves, and so on.

 

But it does not require scripture lessons to learn to be nice.

[Moontanman]

maybe i understand what trolling means so i wont get into what you think is evidence of evolution.

 

back to the thread: evolution must be taught in public schools

 

i think we should have the right to vote on what is taught, by county.

 

Ok, would you have any problem with Islam being taught to your children? Judaism? Catholicism? Wiccaian? Buddhism? Does more people wanting something taught make it the truth? If for instance if more people thought that the moon is inhabited by creatures that can fly make it true? At one time this was what was thought by more than few. How about the Earth being flat? At one time it was pretty much the law of the land (due to religion) at one time a man was burned at the stake due to his belief that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe. At one time the Earth was at the center of the solar system and the sun and moon and other planets orbited around the earth. Stars were holes in the sky where heaven shown through. would you want these ideas taught to your child? At one time religion (the Christian religion) said they were true and it was dangerous to disagree. Really goku do you think that reality should be decided by popular vote?

[Turtle]

Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual. Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. ~Thomas Jefferson, to the Virginia Baptists (1808)

source

[C1ay]

God's way is not the popular way, not the coolest way, not the hipest way.

all the crazy moon this and unicorn that, your talking about evolution.

 

Did you ever ask yourself if it's possible, even a little, that evolution is God's way? Is it possible that your God created life and designed it to evolve? Do you also understand that arguing against evolution, or even disproving it entirely, would do nothing to support your belief in creation? Creation and evolution are two different topics about two different things, the creation of life and the mutation and adaptation of life to physical conditions. In short, are you open minded about all of the possibilities or have you already closed it to evidence that refutes your belief? Science is about the search for the truth. Are you interested in looking for the truth or should we just decide what we want the truth to be regardless of the ultimate truth? Are you here to participate as part of the science community using science to look for the truth or not?

[Galapagos]

you can't imagine what it is like in my church and so many churches in this area. it is my hope that some day you and everyone else here will have a taste of the true and living God.

Goku, I am not religious at all, but I know that it is possible to be both religious and accept the fact of evolution. I recommend you read "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" by Christian evolutionary biologist Theodosius Dobzhansky. Dobzhansky was a pioneer in genetic research and is known for his study of natural selection operating on wild populations of fruit flies, and among other things, the above paper he wrote.

Here are a few quotes that summarize his relevant points, but again, I suggest you read the whole paper:

Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution

I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God's, or Nature's method of creation. Creation is not an event that happened in 4004 BC; it is a process that began some 10 billion years ago and is still under way.

[...]

Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms.

[...]

Does the evolutionary doctrine clash with religious faith? It does not. It is a blunder to mistake the Holy Scriptures for elementary textbooks of astronomy, geology, biology, and anthropology. Only if symbols are construed to mean what they are not intended to mean can there arise imaginary, insoluble conflicts. As pointed out above, the blunder leads to blasphemy: the Creator is accused of systematic deceitfulness.

[Pyrotex]

in the Bible, God refers to us as his children.

to understand this fully you must have children yourself, the relationship is the same. we tell our children something and they don't understand, God tells us something and we don't understand.

No, goku.

When "God" tells us something that doesn't make sense, it's because it does not make sense. Pretending that stupidity and mythology is a "higher sense than we can understand", is itself the height of stupidity.

It does not make sense because the Old Testament "God" had the intelligence of 2nd Millenium BC superstitious, uneducated palestinian goat herders and fig pluckers.

Because, THAT is who came up with all that stuff.

 

If you want plausible, demonstratable, evidence-supported scientific facts and TRUTH about our real world, you will not and can not find it in 3000 year old scriptures written by the afore-mentioned goat herders and fig pluckers.

[Thunderbird]

No, goku.

When "God" tells us something that doesn't make sense, it's because it does not make sense. Pretending that stupidity and mythology is a "higher sense than we can understand", is itself the height of stupidity.

It does not make sense because the Old Testament "God" had the intelligence of 2nd Millenium BC superstitious, uneducated palestinian goat herders and fig pluckers.

Because, THAT is who came up with all that stuff.

 

If you want plausible, demonstratable, evidence-supported scientific facts and TRUTH about our real world, you will not and can not find it in 3000 year old scriptures written by the afore-mentioned goat herders and fig pluckers.

 

Pyrotex Do you think that mythology serves us an underlying narrative understanding what it means to be human? Not just the stories contained in the Bible or Buddhist text but fictional stories in general.

Even science and scientist where inspired by the works of Vern and wells.

 

Studying myth has informed me about the “spirit “ of man. His metaphorical demon's and angels, fears and desires.

To me “Spirit” is something about overall order that connects to promote life. God is only a metaphor that eludes to the concept of totality of spirit. It is not to me a thing but a force that cannot be encapsulated by anyone, or in any book.

I personally believe that if a person thinks he knows the mind of God that person is insane. I tend to generally trust atheist more than I do the devotedly religious people in positions of authority and power. However to understand the human spirit one should study fiction and mythology. Its a gold mine as long as you inoculate the mind from superstition with science, logic and history first.

 

My point being a person can study the Bible in Sunday school every week and not be superstitious .

I have to be honest here and admit I have no clue what happens to us after we die. If heaven does exist its more than likely just for artist and playboy bunnies. The rest of you are going straight to hell. :)

[Moontanman]

Pyrotex Do you think that mythology serves us an underlying narrative understanding what it means to be human? Not just the stories contained in the Bible or Buddhist text but fictional stories in general.

Even science and scientist where inspired by the works of Vern and wells.

 

Studying myth has informed me about the “spirit “ of man. His metaphorical demon's and angels, fears and desires.

To me “Spirit” is something about overall order that connects to promote life. God is only a metaphor that eludes to the concept of totality of spirit. It is not to me a thing but a force that cannot be encapsulated by anyone, or in any book.

I personally believe that if a person thinks he knows the mind of God that person is insane. I tend to generally trust atheist more than I do the devotedly religious people in positions of authority and power. However to understand the human spirit one should study fiction and mythology. Its a gold mine as long as you inoculate the mind from superstition with science, logic and history first.

 

My point being a person can study the Bible in Sunday school every week and not be superstitious .

I have to be honest here and admit I have no clue what happens to us after we die. If heaven does exist its more than likely just for artist and playboy bunnies. The rest of you are going straight to hell. :)

 

T-Bird, I have to agree with both you and Pyro, when veiwed as a the literal truth the bible is indeed stupid. It can cuase nothing but harm when veiwed this way. when used a source of wisdom about humanity and the things that make us tick the bible is obviously a fount of wisdom. The bible contaions much that is so very accurate about people and their motivations under duress but it also contains much that is nothing less than despicable. Punishment for things from cutting off the hand of a thief to murder by stoning of adulterers (mostly for women) and unruly children to homosexuals is nothing less than despicable and can only serve to destroy society and the people in it. Books of so called ancient wisdom can be sources of real world information abut they can also lead you down the path of anarchy. The danger is great that a person who uses a good example from the bible would be prone to use a very bad one. Even worse would be the person who interpreters the bible to please his own world view instead of reality.

[goku]

Did you ever ask yourself if it's possible, even a little, that evolution is God's way? Is it possible that your God created life and designed it to evolve? Do you also understand that arguing against evolution, or even disproving it entirely, would do nothing to support your belief in creation? Creation and evolution are two different topics about two different things, the creation of life and the mutation and adaptation of life to physical conditions. In short, are you open minded about all of the possibilities or have you already closed it to evidence that refutes your belief? Science is about the search for the truth. Are you interested in looking for the truth or should we just decide what we want the truth to be regardless of the ultimate truth? Are you here to participate as part of the science community using science to look for the truth or not?

 

i've had so many thoughts, and honestly i don't iknow which would help you the most.

 

i'm not here to help me, i'm here to try and help someone else.

[Buffy]

i'm not here to help me, i'm here to try and help someone else.

Help them how?

 

I say we must not so stain our judgment, or corrupt our hope, to prostitute our past-cure malady to empirics, or to dissever so our great self and our credit, to esteem a senseless help when help past sense we deem,

Buffy

[C1ay]

i've had so many thoughts, and honestly i don't iknow which would help you the most.

 

i'm not here to help me, i'm here to try and help someone else.

 

So you're saying that you are not open minded about the possibilities?

[Galapagos]

Creationist Evolution in Texas: Updated - The Panda's Thumb

More coverage on Texas over at Panda'sThumb. The creationist chair of the Board of education is caught up in the typical stealth-creationist tactic of pretending anti-evolution sentiments are not due to religious motives.

------------------------

 

Also, saw this drifting through the blogosphere today and thought I would share. Wasn't sure where this fit, so in our creationism/evolution thread it goes.

Roger Ebert has reviewed Ben Stein's creationism/ID documentary "Expelled", and it is quite hilarious. Enjoy:

 

Win Ben Stein's mind - Roger Ebert's Journal

I've been accused of refusing to review Ben Stein's documentary "Expelled," a defense of Creationism, because of my belief in the theory of evolution. Here is my response.

 

Ben Stein, you hosted a TV show on which you gave away money. Imagine that I have created a special edition of "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" just for you. Ben, you've answered all the earlier questions correctly, and now you're up for the $1 million prize. It involves an explanation for the evolution of life on this planet. You have already exercised your option to throw away two of the wrong answers. Now you are faced with two choices: (A) Darwin's Theory of Evolution, or ( Intelligent Design...

[goku]

So you're saying that you are not open minded about the possibilities?

 

open mined about things that could actually happen.

 

are you open mined about things that absolutely are not possible?

[C1ay]

are you open mined about things that absolutely are not possible?

 

Such as?