Do a spiral galaxy and a hurricane share a similar formation mechanism?

[peter]

Hi; Guys,

Today I saw two totally unrelated pictures: one is a spiral galaxy and the other is a hurricane; they are so similar (see the attached pictures below)which make me think that they should share (to some extent) similar mechanism of formation. I am not a cosmologist nor a Meteorologist. I know that the formation of a hurricane involves completely fluid mechanism, how about a spiral galaxy? Is it possible that the cosmological fluid or other fluid-like matter is involved the formation of the spiral galaxies? They both rotate and have an eye in the center and spiral arms. Just for curiosity, could be silly.

[LaurieAG]

Hi; Guys,

Today I saw two totally unrelated pictures: one is a spiral galaxy and the other is a hurricane; they are so similar (see the attached pictures below)which make me think that they should share (to some extent) similar mechanism of formation. I am not a cosmologist nor a Meteorologist. I know that the formation of a hurricane involves completely fluid mechanism, how about a spiral galaxy? Is it possible that the cosmological fluid or other fluid-like matter is involved the formation of the spiral galaxies? They both rotate and have an eye in the center and spiral arms. Just for curiosity, could be silly.

 

Hi Peter,

 

There are other alternatives, like the light paths from bodies orbiting a common center, possibly just as silly.

[peter]

Hi Peter,

 

There are other alternatives, like the light paths from bodies orbiting a common center, possibly just as silly.

 

Hi; LaurieAG,

It is an amazing phenomenon. I guess that the spiral pattern generated by such mechanism will change with time because of the constant motion of those bodies. I think that most of spiral galaxies detected are real Milky Way-like or hurricane-like.

[Jay-qu]

Sorry peter but no, these are completely unrelated.

 

A galaxy does rotate but it is not this rotation that causes the spiral arms to form. If it where we would run into trouble, known as the winding problem. And that is that the galaxies spiral arms would eventually wind up very tightly around the nucleus. While some spiral galaxies have tighter wound arms than others, none are observed to the extent that would be expected for very old spirals.

 

The current theory for the formation of the spiral arms is due to pressure waves. If you look at the picture you supplied us with you will notice that along the arms arm mainly blue stars. These stars are hot and young, meaning they were created most recently. It also implies they were all formed around the same time. When these stars get old and eventually die, some will go supernova. This supernova will cause pressure waves in the interstellar medium that will make the gasses in between the arms contract. This contaction will set off another wave of star formation and the spiral shape will be perpetuated.

[LaurieAG]

Hi; LaurieAG,

It is an amazing phenomenon. I guess that the spiral pattern generated by such mechanism will change with time because of the constant motion of those bodies. I think that most of spiral galaxies detected are real Milky Way-like or hurricane-like.

 

Hi peter,

 

This is not like a hurricane, These spiral light paths (aren't a mainstream concept but) just a simple reverse projection from the relative originating positions of a rotating point source of light (and their relative paths) that would appear just like a spiral galaxy if they were consolidated (or the point sources were rotating around each other much faster than they would around their galactic center) into one image.

 

And there's still the impact of Beryllium on what we see through our telescopes. The beryllium that's used for doping optics, or the FTL Beryllium doped prisms, or the photon transistor that uses a carbon fibre to allow photons to hit, you guessed it, a Beryllium atom.

 

Beryllium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The fact that 7Be and 8Be are unstable has profound cosmological consequences as it means that elements heavier than beryllium could not be produced by nuclear fusion in the Big Bang. However, Fred Hoyle showed that the energy levels of 8Be and 12C favour carbon production by the triple-alpha process in helium burning stars, thus making life possible. (See also Big Bang nucleosynthesis).

 

7Be decays by electron capture, therefore its decay rate is dependent upon its electron configuration - a novel occurrence in nuclear decay[9].

 

If there was enough Beryllium produced by the BB (if there ever was a BB) to dope the early universe, hmmmmm, who'd be the dopes?

[Thunderbird]

Many of nature’s patterns are related to the golden section and the Fibonacci numbers. For instance, the golden spiral is a logarithmic or equiangular spiral – a type of spiral found in sunflowers, seashells, animal horns and tusks, beaks and claws, whirlpools, hurricanes, and spiral galaxies. An equiangular spiral does not alter its shape as its size increases. Because of this remarkable property (known as self-similarity).

 

 

There are similarities, but the physics are different. Hurricanes are structures in the gravitational field of the Earth, while galaxies are gravitating objects in space

Which makes the Golden Ratio's presence all the more remarkable.

 

 

The Golden Ratio or logarithmic spiral is a key shape for things that grows, because with growth the ratio does not change. But no one knows why the logarithmic spirals appear in totally unrelated phenomena.

 

Our own solar system possesses some interesting Golden Mean properties.

The distances of planetary orbits working out from the Sun displays a Golden Mean proportion. The distance from the sun to Mercury plus Mercury's distance to Venus equals the distance between Venus and Earth. The Phi relationship is most clearly defined by the planets nearest the sun. Clearly there is some kind of mathematical relation between all objects in gravitational fields, whether it be hurricanes, galaxies, or even the spiraling of water around a bath tub drain.

[Pyrotex]

...The Golden Ratio or logarithmic spiral is a key shape for things that grows, because with growth the ratio does not change. But no one knows why the logarithmic spirals appear in totally unrelated phenomena.....

Well, actually, [cough!] we DO know why logarithmic spirals seem to pop up everywhere.

 

You are not surprised to see straight lines or circles everywhere, are you? They are such basic, primitive shapes. And soooooo many phenomena have the straight line or the circle as their "solution" or manifestation. But that doesn't mean the phenomena have something in common.

 

A meteorite makes a straight line in the sky. A tautly held string makes a straight line. The horizon at sea appears to be a straight line. It also appears as a circle around your head. These phenomona have nothing in common--they just all happen to manifest as a basic, primitive shape.

 

Well, what about the logarithmic spiral? Is it a basic, primitive shape? Yes it is. I know, the math appears more exotic and logarithms don't seem very basic, but in the world of mathematics, the constant e, and its related logarithms and exponentials, are just as primitive and simple as pi, or a straight line. There are many phenomina in the universe that have the logarithmic spiral as their "solution" or manifestation--even though they have nothing else in common.

[Thunderbird]

When we observe structures based on identical mathematic principals. and these structures all being dynamical self organizing systems, it’s safe to assume that there are some underlying basic principles at work linking these

structures.

 

 

Geometric evidence defines Phi as the optimum oscillating operator that mediates between ordered, equilibrium systems and disordered, non-equilibrium ones.

 

Have you got a cold?

[Symbology]

Of course we know! It's called "Magic" :shrug:

 

 

PS Nice write up Thunderbird

 

Here are some examples of e that Pyro was talking about:

 

Sunflower seeds:

 

Sunflower seed overlapping spiral pattern using a Fibonacci sequence (e)

 

Sunflower Leaf pattern:

 

Nautilus logarithmic growth:

 

Nautilus cross section up close:

[Pyrotex]

When we observe structures based on identical mathematic principals. and these structures all being dynamical self organizing systems, it’s safe to assume that there are some underlying basic principles at work linking this structures....

You may assume.

 

But it is never safe.

 

:shrug:

[LaurieAG]

Well, actually, [cough!] we DO know why logarithmic spirals seem to pop up everywhere.

 

Hi Pyro,

 

Especially if you understand about feedback loops, Poincare sections, Lorenzian manipulations and Minkowski space.

 

The attached images were obtained from the feedback loop produced by the equipment shown in the setup image. The Blackhole image is what happens when you get a shadow trapped in the feedback loop.

[LaurieAG]

Well, actually, [cough!] we DO know why logarithmic spirals seem to pop up everywhere.

 

...

 

Well, what about the logarithmic spiral? Is it a basic, primitive shape? Yes it is. I know, the math appears more exotic and logarithms don't seem very basic, but in the world of mathematics, the constant e, and its related logarithms and exponentials, are just as primitive and simple as pi, or a straight line. There are many phenomina in the universe that have the logarithmic spiral as their "solution" or manifestation--even though they have nothing else in common.

 

Hi Pyro,

 

The only real problem with this applied model is that the only 'valid' example shown is the black hole i.e. a model of how an Einstein ring is formed by a shadow (read orbiting planet) that is trapped in the feedback loop (light travelling to the observer).

 

Unfortunately, everything else appears to be a manifestation of 3 angles of spin and lag i.e. not real science but an illusion (planetary rotation, orbit and galactic rotation), like the Reimann sphere (with one mirror) added.

 

You also get some interesting fractals with 1 and 2 mirrors. I haven't tried any smoke yet.

 

Are there any other working applied models of these phenomena around?

[Thunderbird]

Are there any other working applied models of these phenomena around?

 

Virtually every aspect of fractal geometry and type of dynamical system can be expressed by variations upon the simple quadratic iterator:

X = X**2 + c

which expresses the particular type of feedback being examined, Phi can be expressed by a related but more archetypal variation to derive the Fibonacci series:

X[n+1] = X[n] + X[n-1]

which incrementally gravitates towards a particular ratio which possesses unique qualities. Numerically, it can be derived from the relation:

(1 + sqrt(5))/2.

For example, if one diminishes Phi by Unity you derive its reciprocal. Additionally, Phi is the unique ratio that fulfils:

1/Ø + 1/Ø**2 = 1

in other words, Phi is also the only possible geometric and arithmetic, expansion and partitioning of One.

 

This leads us to the other cardinal feature of Phi. There is only one proportional division of One possible using two terms, with the third being One itself. From Euclid's ELEMENTS Book Five, Theorem Three (Alexandria, 3rd century B.C.):

 

"A straight line is said to have been cut in extreme and mean ratio when, as the whole line is to the greater segment, so is the greater to the less."

 

The Golden Mean then, is an archetypal fractal in that it preserves its relationship with itself (its inherent similarities under scaling are conformal symmetries - with topological consequences, that are invariant about themselves), in the most mathematically robust, economical but also elegant, way. It is analogia exemplified.

 

 

As we shall see, this reciprocal, squaring behaviour about One, or Unity, as it is more properly termed, is far from being mathematically trivial.

 

All feedback loops deterministically involve the passage of time. The quadratic iterator is derived from Newton's differential calculus, and from a period when nature was seen as a mechanistic and time-reversible automaton. Recent science demonstrates that in fact it consists of both the above and irreversible processes, known as the entropy barrier, or the arrow of time. The Golden Mean can also be seen as mathematically (because of the above) the simplest and most stable way of communing or mediating between the two, as we shall see.

Nigel Reading

 

 

 

 

 

You may assume.But it is never safe

 

According to the Nobel laureate Ilya Prigogine, these far from equilibrium dissipative systems locally minimise their entropy production by being open to their environments --- they export it in fact, back into their environments, whilst importing low entropy. Globally, overall entropy increase is nevertheless preserved, with the important caveat that the dissipative system concerned often experiences a transient increase (or optimisation) of its own complexity, or internal sophistication, before it eventually subsides back into the flux.

 

This is known as the region of alternatively, Emergence, Maximum Complexity, Self-organised Criticality, Autopoiesis, or the Edge of Chaos. (Nascent science debates nomenclature routinely - and appropriately, in this case, the crucial point being that they are all different terms for essentially the same phenomena.)

 

Lifeforms, ecosystems, global climate, plate tectonics, celestial mechanics, human economies, history and societies, even consciousness itself - all manifest this feedback-led, reflexive behaviour; they maximise their adaptive capacities by entering this region of (maximum) complexity on the edge of Chaos, whenever they are pushed far from their equilibrium states, thereby incrementally increasing their internal complexity, between occasional catastrophes.

 

Remarkably, this transition zone is mathematically occupied by The Golden Mean. This ratio acts as an optimised probability operator, (a differential equation like an oscillating binary switch), whenever we observe the quasi-periodic evolution of a dynamical system. It appears in fact, to be the optimal, energy-minimising route to the region of maximum algorithmic complexity, and to be a basin of attraction for the edge of Chaos.

Nigel Reading

[LaurieAG]

Hi Thunderbird,

 

All feedback loops deterministically involve the passage of time. The quadratic iterator is derived from Newton's differential calculus, and from a period when nature was seen as a mechanistic and time-reversible automaton. Recent science demonstrates that in fact it consists of both the above and irreversible. Nigel Reading

 

In the feedback loop you get a real time loop (and light direction) that is irreversible even though the maths behind the model itself (in isolation) involves the past, present and future (for 1 set of angles the images are all the same with minor variations) i.e. Minkowski space.

 

The black hole image (Einstein ring) has only just started expanding into a state of equillibrium, the final spinning ring is twice as large as the orb even though the total area does not really change (a wave runs along the inside edge). While the angles stay the same, the ring remains stable, introducing any further elements into the loop causes the ring to revert back into the orb.

 

We can see Einstein rings through telescopes because the feedback loop can be cut into frames that appear consistent with an irreversible time direction. In the case of this phenomena, it is an example where time is not reversible because we are looking at an individual element and not the whole unity.

 

That's the difference between a Very Large Scale Finite State Automata and a Very Large Scale Infinite State automata, certainty.

[coldcreation]

Nigel Reading...

 

Nice. This is the first time, since I joined Hypography, that I have seen someone, besides myself, quoting Ilya Prigogine. Unfortunately Prigogine passed away on May 28, 2003, in Brussels. He was a specialist in non-equilibrium physics, the dynamics of unstable systems and the natural laws within the range of low energies. Much of his work centered around nonequilibrium physics, irreveribility, the evolutionary description of nature connected to the increase of entropy with time (viz the secong law of thermodynamics): he was a true genius with a populist hyper-realist style. He was also a pianist, an artist, whose dialogue with nature never faltered.

 

 

Long-range correlations sometime go well beyond the immediate surroundings, extending through complex groups of individuals. This phenomenon is seen in Bose-Einstein condensates, superfluids, superconduction, chemical reactions, tornados, hurricanes, galaxies, and in all biological life forms. This is what Prigogine was hinting at.

 

 

My own view on the spiral galaxies are similar to yours. However, what intrests me even more are the structures know as barred galaxies. There is no counterpart on smaller scales.

 

Barred spiral galaxies are perhaps the most magnificent and mystifying objects in the cosmos. The apparently simple shape of the barred formations masks the complexity and inner-workings responsible for the development of these gravitating systems - of which the Milky Way appears to be one particular type of example. The search for a deeper understanding of the central roles played by such structures in the dynamics and evolution of galaxies remains one of the indispensable challenges confronting contemporary extragalactic astronomy.

 

The apparent lack of any universal analogue renders the problem even more difficult and non-intuitive. For example, the eye of a hurricane or the whirlpool of water going down the drain in your bathtub does not possess a barred configuration. The fact that an extraordinarily large number of these stable arrangements exist, that many variations of these morphological types are observed, and therefore, that bars must both be easily formed and possess long-term life expectancy, encourages the belief that the associated dynamic mechanism is embedded in the heart and sole of the gravitational interaction (unlike, perhaps, hurricanes). (Note: Yes, there are models, but they are unconvincing for several reasons...).

 

 

 

CC

[Turtle]

The last few posts have inspired me to construction. For your considerations, the Fibonacci 3-d golden orthogonal 6-degree complex: right handed. :hihi: :shrug:

[Pyrotex]

Nice. This is the first time, since I joined Hypography, that I have seen someone, besides myself, quoting Ilya Prigogine. Unfortunately Prigogine passed away on May 28, 2003, in Brussels. ...

And it is the first time, since *I* joined Hypography, that I have seen someone, besides myself, quoting Prigogine -- too.

 

His understanding of off-equilibrium dynamics was awesome. And not just for his math models, but really for his understanding of how these OED systems are all around us, impact every aspect of our existence and our universe. Order can spontaneously come from disorder??? YES!! ALL the time!! Everywhere in the Universe!! From atoms to living cells to galaxies.

 

We will miss Ilya. :shrug: