Do a spiral galaxy and a hurricane share a similar formation mechanism?

[modest]

The last few posts have inspired me to construction. For your considerations, the Fibonacci 3-d golden orthogonal 6-degree complex: right handed. :doh: :shrug:

 

Superb turtle.

 

But, shouldn't the leftmost blue be longer than the leftmost green? Perhaps the perspective is tricking me.

 

-modest

[Turtle]

Superb turtle.

 

But, shouldn't the leftmost blue be longer than the leftmost green? Perhaps the perspective is tricking me.

 

-modest

 

{1 1 2 3 5 8...}

 

The thing has me transfixed. I want to dip it in soapy water & see what minimum surfaces form. I want to build the left-handed version. I ...I am transfixed by this 'thing'. ;)

 

So far, I have fiddled with how it lays flat. The plane (table) makes the 3rd sides of right triangles. If insted of right angles, what if it turns by 60 degrees at each node? Anyway, I hope all this fits OK here. [spock]Fascinating![/spock]

 

Here's some more perspectives of it. :)

 

YouTube - Right-handed 3-d Fibonacci Golden Orthogonal complex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNrz5na4log

[coldcreation]

And it is the first time, since *I* joined Hypography, that I have seen someone, besides myself, quoting Prigogine -- too.

 

His understanding of off-equilibrium dynamics was awesome. And not just for his math models, but really for his understanding of how these OED systems are all around us, impact every aspect of our existence and our universe. Order can spontaneously come from disorder??? YES!! ALL the time!! Everywhere in the Universe!! From atoms to living cells to galaxies.

 

We will miss Ilya.

 

I see we do share the same views on at least one subject. Cool.

 

 

:hihi:

 

 

 

"Exploring Complexity: An Introduction", Gregoire Nicolis, Ilya Prigogine

 

Prigogine, who died recently, made brilliant strides in proving the non-determinacy of Reality, and the non-reversability of Time, but his work is very mathematical--much of it is over my head.

 

I must have missed this post Pyro.

 

Here are a few of my favorite passages by Ilya:

 

”the laws of physics describe an idealized world that is quite different from the unstable' date=' evolving world in which we live…we can no longer associate the arrow of time only with an increase of disorder. Recent developments in nonequilibrium physics and chemistry point in the opposite direction. They show unambiguously that the arrow of time is a source of order…Irreversibility leads to both order and disorder…they do not correspond to approximations added to the basic laws. Irreversible processes play a fundamental constructive role in nature.” (Prigogine, 1996, p. 26)

 

“…phase transitions are ultimately defined by the thermodynamic limit…Phase transitions correspond to emerging properties. They are meaningful only at the level of populations, and not single particles. This contention is somewhat analogous to that which is based on Poincaré resonances. Persistent interactions mean that we cannot take a part of the system and consider it in isolation. It is at this global level, at the level of populations, that the symmetry between past and future is broken, and science can recognize the flow of time. This solves a long-standing puzzle. It is indeed in macroscopic physics that irreversibility and probability are the most conspicuous.” (1996, p. 45).

 

 

“It is remarkable that irreversibility already emerges in simple situations involving only a few degrees of freedom.” He continues, “This, of course, is a blow to the anthropomorphic interpretation of irreversibility based on approximations that we ourselves are supposed to introduce.”

 

 

Late last century, Ilya Prigogine wrote we are at the beginning of a new scientific era, not just limited to simplified situations, but reflective of the complexity, of the real world, “a science that views us and our creativity as part of a fundamental trend present at all levels of nature” (1996 p.7)

 

Prigogine follows with “We need a new formulation of the fundamental laws of physics.”

[/quote']

 

Prigogine also pointed out that the time-ordered flow of long-range correlations in far-from-equilibrium conditions (as seen in biological systems) is a valuable and provocative analogy to human communication. “When two people meet, they converse, and consequently modify their thinking to some extent. These modifications are brought to subsequent meetings, and modified further,” a phenomenon called dissemination. “There is a flow of communication in society, just as there is a flow of correlations in matter” (1996, p. 79).

 

It is well known?with expressed gratitude towards Ilya Prigogine for having shed light on the subject?that dynamical instability provides conditions necessary to generate evolutionary patterns of nature. Moreover, we are beginning to understand the dynamical source of organization, the emergence of complexity and irreversible dissipative structures at the macroscopic level?essential in processes of self-organization and the emergence of life (Prigogine, 1996, pp. 127-128)

 

From Prigogine, I., 1996, The End of Certainty, Time Chaos, and the New Laws of Nature

 

 

 

R.I.P.

 

 

 

 

CC

[Turtle]

Have we defined 'similar formation mechanism'? Nevermind; that's a rhetorical question. So my 'complex 3-d Fibonacci Golden Tree', or whatever the hell it should be called, hasn't shown any spiral at all as far as I have presented some points-of-view. I saw none myself until this morning...well afternoon, as I was up late making a series of orthogonal photos of the structure. See these as the leftmost attachment.

 

The rightmost attachment is from the POV that is necessary to see the spirals, which come in 3 flavors. I did some rough measures with a protractor to find a rotation of ~35º rotation from the orthogonal for all 3, and an elevation of ~35º to see 2 of the spirals and ~15º for the 3rd. :xx:

 

Note how the structure sits on the plane one of 3 different ways, and in each case all elements of the same color lie on the plane parallel to one-another. :)

 

Fascinating! ;)

[Turtle]

Have we defined 'similar formation mechanism'? Nevermind; that's a rhetorical question. So my 'complex 3-d Fibonacci Golden Tree', or whatever the hell it should be called, hasn't shown any spiral at all as far as I have presented some points-of-view.

...

Fascinating!

 

The 2-dimensional projections of the proper 3 perspectives appear to me as equiangular spirals of ~ 60°. For this projection I held the Golden Tree in a bright light and looked at the shadow it threw on the wall. I wore safety glasses, :confused:, and was very careful not to get any on me. :note: Any of you have software capable to model the Golden Tree? :hihi: :hyper:

[modest]

Any of you have software capable to model the Golden Tree? :phones:

 

Not exactly sure what you're looking for. I just threw the camera and light around like a drunken sailor. I can slow down where you need or do stills or whatever.

 

YouTube - Fibonacci at right angles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1jW9RIYSug

 

 

Sorry 'bout the corny trance, it seemed fitting. Peace,

 

-modest

[Turtle]

Not exactly sure what you're looking for. I just threw the camera and light around like a drunken sailor. I can slow down where you need or do stills or whatever.

 

 

 

Sorry 'bout the corny trance, it seemed fitting. Peace,

 

-modest

 

:bow: I am in your debt Modest San. :) Too tranzfixed to make any requests yet. :) ;) :bow:

[Turtle]

Not exactly sure what you're looking for. I just threw the camera and light around like a drunken sailor. I can slow down where you need or do stills or whatever.

 

Peace,

 

-modest

 

OK. I have snapped out of my trance. I don't suppose you can dip yours in soapy water and see what surfaces form can you? I'll get around to that with mine presently.

 

In the mean time, can you make a left-hand one too, to compare the two forms? :)

 

The other thing I was going to try with the straws is to make the angles of rotation & turning 60 deg instead of 90. :D :eek: You rock Modest! :)

 

Piece,

:eek:

[coldcreation]

.

 

 

Check out this hurricane: It attains maximum force (category 5) between seconds 39 and 49, then downgrades to a category 3 before making landfall.

 

Hurricane KATRINA from satellite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SLXYRJnYm0&feature=related

 

 

 

Here is a good explanation of at least one aspect of hurricane structure. They combine new simulation data with satellite observations to study "hot towers."

 

NASA's Towers in the Tempest http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUG4-TEqPYc

 

 

You can see how the relation galaxy-hurricane is difficult to call, even though there is a slight resemblance.

 

.

[modest]

I don't suppose you can dip yours in soapy water and see what surfaces form can you?

 

Probably not without frying my computer :lol:

 

 

In the mean time, can you make a left-hand one too, to compare the two forms?

 

Sure, it's a mirror image:

 

 

The other thing I was going to try with the straws is to make the angles of rotation & turning 60 deg instead of 90.

 

Here's a proper 2D projection of the 90 degree:

 

 

and of the 60 degree:

 

 

and the vid of the 60 when it's done rendering and uploaded to youtube....

soon as it's ready...... :doh:

 

any time now.... :evil:

 

any time n... :)

 

I'm kidding, it took less than a minute to render,

 

Here we go:

 

YouTube - 3D Fibonacci at 60 Deg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGu7Vx6gVrk

 

It is a rather interesting little fella - your tree.

 

-modest

[Turtle]

and the vid of the 60 when it's done rendering and uploaded to youtube....

soon as it's ready...... :shrug:

 

any time now....

 

any time n... :evil:

 

I'm kidding, it took less than a minute to render,

 

Here we go:

 

 

It is a rather interesting little fella - your tree.

 

-modest

 

:bow: :lol: Outstanding. From little acorns, mighty oak trees grow. :shrug: Of course, any oak seedling worth its mycorrhizal symbiote wants to grow up to be part of a forest. ;) :( :cup: :tree: I was thinking these trees might close-pack, but now, not so much. How close can they get to one another, if we say had a field of them sprouting up? Do lefts-n-rights get along better than rights-n-rights or lefts-n-lefts?

 

The trees are self-similar at all scales, oui/no? Are you thankful I'm not likely to show up at your house like Paul Erdös, and not leave 'til we whisper this tree into submission? :eek: We are havin' sum fun now boy! :doh: :)

[LaurieAG]

You can see how the relation galaxy-hurricane is difficult to call, even though there is a slight resemblance.

 

Hi CC,

 

It would be interesting to see images of galaxies taken from a stationary position relative to the center of the milky way, our galaxy, just to see what is moving in our universe relative to other things that don't. A short (true)trajectory could be made by a satellite within our solar system but a survey probe that goes outside our solar system would also produce images of our solar system receeding in the distance as well as a target galaxy/milky way, the opposite to something similar approaching.

 

That's the problem with light travelling in circles over time with 3 angles of variation from the view horizon, what exactly are you seeing?

 

BTW, the two different spiral light paths shown in the 2gals image are very similar to repeating periods of varying light intensity discovered in some pulsars/quasars a couple of years ago (sorry the ref is in the New Scientist pay site, I'll have to dig up the text).

[coldcreation]

Hi CC,

 

It would be interesting to see images of galaxies taken from a stationary position relative to the center of the milky way, our galaxy, just to see what is moving in our universe relative to other things that don't. A short (true)trajectory could be made by a satellite within our solar system but a survey probe that goes outside our solar system would also produce images of our solar system receeding in the distance as well as a target galaxy/milky way, the opposite to something similar approaching.

 

...

 

Check this out LaurieAG,

 

Galaxy's spiral arms point in opposite directions

 

Here is the article from NewScientist.com news service.

 

Astronomers are puzzling over a spiral galaxy whose spiral arms are wrapped in opposing directions...

 

Before astronomers had studied this unusual spiral galaxy' date=' called NGC 4622, they thought the spiral arms of galaxies were always oriented the same way relative to the galaxy's direction of rotation. Specifically, spiral arms were always thought to follow, or trail, the direction of rotation – the same way that a swirl of milk in a stirred cup of coffee naturally orients itself.

 

But in 2002, astronomers led by Ron Buta of the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, US, announced that NGC 4622, which lies 200 million light years away, was rotating the wrong way – its prominent outer arms were leading instead of trailing. And one inner arm even appeared to be wound in the opposite direction from the outer arms.[/quote']

 

How does this fit in with your hypothesis?

 

 

CC

[Thunderbird]

Seems to me these types of phenomenon, along with barred galaxies, could be explained by multiple centers, as in multiple black holes.

[LaurieAG]

Check this out LaurieAG,

 

Galaxy's spiral arms point in opposite directions

 

Here is the article from NewScientist.com news service.

 

 

 

How does this fit in with your hypothesis?

 

 

CC

 

Hi CC,

 

I suppose if there can be lag that allows the consolidation of multiple rotations over time (that look like a cyclone/spiral galaxy) then there shouldn't be any reason why the opposite wouldn't occur (as per my first light path galaxy image).

 

Also, that's one thing about a rotating photon/solar system (you can verify this by spinning a sparkler, or even your finger in the air) that has always got me, if it goes away rotating in a clockwise direction, won't it appear to rotate anti clockwise when viewed from the opposite direction? Surely if you see the second view you aren't really seing anything 'anti' at all, you are just seeing the front view of the same thing coming towards you instead of the back view going away.

 

BTW, the latest New Scientist magazine had an article on time travel and wormholes based on a closed time like loop CTLL with a hole in it (The feedback loop would actually go around the universe and back except the (infinite) rest of the physical trip has been cut through electronics). I can assure you that while I was generating the images posted earlier with the feedback version of a CTTL, I witnessed no time travel either forwards or backwards and I didn't catch a glimpse of any parallel universes through the halo.

 

That leads me to the biggest question (and a good indicator to where Kurt Godel got his 'time travel' equations wrong) is there any inkling of a proof that there exists a Closed Time Like Loop that rules the universe? The answer is no never because they can only occur in isolation.

[LaurieAG]

Hi All,

 

If our universe was dominated by a closed time like loop then we should have crossover points as shown in the image U1.

 

WR104 star a deadly ray gun | Herald Sun

 

Also WR104 is remarkably like the galaxy light path image in my first post, especially as it consists of time lapse images over 6 years.

 

While the newspaper article(s) may be sensational and over the top, if the object was moving towards the observer at a reasonably fast speed there might be a real cause for concern in a few million years or so.

[arniebenn]

Hi; Guys,

Today I saw two totally unrelated pictures: one is a spiral galaxy and the other is a hurricane; they are so similar (see the attached pictures below)which make me think that they should share (to some extent) similar mechanism of formation. I am not a cosmologist nor a Meteorologist. I know that the formation of a hurricane involves completely fluid mechanism, how about a spiral galaxy? Is it possible that the cosmological fluid or other fluid-like matter is involved the formation of the spiral galaxies? They both rotate and have an eye in the center and spiral arms. Just for curiosity, could be silly.

 

 

Hey Peter

Not silly at all. Processes in nature do not look identical coincidentally. They must be related, even if popular scientific theory doesn't know why yet (something they HATE admitting).

The gravitational model has trouble accounting for galaxy formation and structure.

Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfven (the guy who explained the aurora borealis phenomenon) has demonstrated in the lab that plasma physics and electromagnetism account for galaxy formation and structure. (See attached image, and google him) The idea isn't popular. I'm sure you know the great inertia of the scientific world. It takes tremendous force to divert their thinking from popular theory. But the images speak for themselves.

 

The question is: why do we not study the electromagnetic components of hurricanes? After all, we do live on a spinning geo-magnet with conductive oceans and ionosphere. Perhaps low pressure cells are just the facilitator: rising moisture-laden air containing charged particles results in current flow. But, whatever the details are, the engine appears to be electromagnetic.