Do a spiral galaxy and a hurricane share a similar formation mechanism?

[dduckwessel]

i'll say whatever i goddamn well please. you & your ilk coming here with your religious spiritual crap is no different than me going into a church and taking a **** on the pulpit. :evil: before you say science is just my belief & you get your panties in a bunch on the way out, think of me as jesus & you're a money changer.

 

what the hell is wrong with you people!!!??? :rant:

 

Settle down and stop talking like a Neanderthal. What did I say that was so wrong? And who's got who's underwear in a bunch!!

[dduckwessel]

I would like you to examine your 14 year-old's and your fingerprints again and compare the structure to that of a spiral galaxy. I think you will find that whorl shaped fingerprints are only trivially similar to a spiral galaxy.

 

You're right, they are mostly whorl shaped, not spiral.

 

I could claim to think that when a unicorn sneaks into a baby's bedroom and licks a child's head 12 times in the same place, a swirl forms. And I could also claim that whorled fingerprints are the mark of the anti-christ. Both of these claims are unsupported by evidence, and as this is a science forum, you are expected to support claims with evidence. Your limited imagination is not a valid support of your claim.

 

:huh: Intelligence isn't a high IQ, it's the ability to look at all factors and observe everything rationally.

 

 

It means EXACTLY that you can not always trust what you see. A whole new thread could easily be filled will youtube videos of optical illusions that illustrate the brain's ability to "jump to conclusions" when processing visual data.

 

You can't say that about everything, otherwise we might as well throw in the towel now because we're all seeing things that aren't there.

 

Eye witness testimony has repeatedly been shown to be very unreliable, because the brain frequently interprets what we see in a way that agrees with what we expect to see. One particular example that I find fascinating, is that people with schizophrenia tend to not be fooled by the hollow mask illusion, which seems to suggest that they are suffering from an inability to "sort" through stimuli and "jump to conclusions". While this may seem to be beneficial, the sheer overload of sensory data severely disrupts the ability of the sufferer to function.

 

Yes but that's only true of schizophrenics, and probably those with dementia and Alzheimers, the rest of us have the ability to differentiate - otherwise we should all be locked away.

[JMJones0424]

One particular example that I find fascinating, is that people with schizophrenia tend to not be fooled by the hollow mask illusion, which seems to suggest that they are suffering from an inability to "sort" through stimuli and "jump to conclusions". While this may seem to be beneficial, the sheer overload of sensory data severely disrupts the ability of the sufferer to function.

 

 

Yes but that's only true of schizophrenics, and probably those with dementia and Alzheimers, the rest of us have the ability to differentiate - otherwise we should all be locked away.

 

You entirely missed the point. The rest of us can't differentiate. It is specifcally our ability to generalize data from our eyes and sort into patterns that we expect to see that keeps the "normal" among us from going insane. I do not know of any study linking this particular ability to distinguish between concave and convex hollow masks to those suffering from dementia or Alzheimer's.

[dduckwessel]

You entirely missed the point. The rest of us can't differentiate. It is specifcally our ability to generalize data from our eyes and sort into patterns that we expect to see that keeps the "normal" among us from going insane.

 

Are you then saying that we create our own reality based on what we think it should look like?

 

I do not know of any study linking this particular ability to distinguish between concave and convex hollow masks to those suffering from dementia or Alzheimer's.

 

I just assumed (so much for assuming) that dementia and Alzheimer's were the same but obviously they're not.

[Time_Travel]

WOW,

 

All my Posts supporting Fibonacci Golden Ratio somehow have disappeared or are not showing here.

 

where are they gone???

well got angry and posted something.

 

worked quiet a few times to post them thats why angry and posted here.

 

admin/moderator should have given a link here that they have been posted somewhere else.

 

Sorry for posting and i have edited this post.

[CraigD]

All my Posts supporting Fibonacci Golden Ratio somehow have disappeared or are not showing here.

 

where are they gone???

My apologies, TT! :(

 

I moved our posts on the subject to a new thread, Predicting the stock market using the golden ratio, because they are about a different subject the shape and formation of galaxies and hurricanes.

 

Before I could post a moderation comment directing readers there, I was interrupted, and only now have had a chance to.

[Time_Travel]

No problem CraigD. I too posted something before knowing they have been moved not deleted and have edited that posting. My apology. :)

[JMJones0424]

Are you then saying that we create our own reality based on what we think it should look like?

 

This is a philosphical question whose answer has been debated for quite some time. As written, I would not agree with the statement, as I am not in the camp with those who feel that observation creates reality. I would choose to phrase it something more like this, "We have evolved to create a model of reality based on visual clues with a reliance on past observations.

 

This is an area of special interest of mine, as I think while most people are obviously used to seeing, the skill of observing is a learned skill that many do not possess. I am not formally educated in the areas being covered, so take everything that follows as my personal reflections rather than conventional scientific thinking on the subject of human visual perception. I welcome any criticism. I will do my best to be both short and comprehensive, and will try to tie this all back into the underlying theme of this thread, which is the human's innate ability to recognize patterns (even when they may be coincidental).

 

There are (at least) two categories of limitations on the human's ability to "see reality". The first and most obvious is the physical limitations of the organ we use to see, our eyes. We are limited in the range of frequencies of electromagnetic radiation that we can see, but this can be augmented using instruments like thermal imaging and radio telescopes. We are also limited in the amount of light that we can see, but again instruments like night vision goggles can augment our sense of sight. Most of these limitations are well known to anyone that can see, so I don't think there's much need to go on about this category.

 

The other category of limitations on our ability to "see reality" is the really interesting one, it involves how our brain processes sensory data from our eyes. The example I gave above that normal people fail and schizophrenics pass is called the "hollow mask". Take a look at this Youtube video and notice how your brain cycles between certainty, then confusion, then discovery of what you are actually seeing... then after a few seconds, even though you KNOW that you are seeing the concave side of the mask, you see the face pop back into "convex" mode.

 

 

Notice how our brain uses clues from shadows to construct a model of what we are seeing, and then reverts back to the "incorrect" picture once the shadows match back up to our preconceived expectations. This phenomenon works just as well in three dimensions rather than the two dimensions of your computer screen. That schizophrenics are able to immediately recognize the concave mask seems to indicate a fundamental difference in the way they process sensory information.

 

Another example is color perception. Anyone who has taken an art class knows that how we see a color depends on the background. Here is an excellent presentation on color perception:

 

 

Also, there is prioritization. We physically "see" more than we actually "pay attention to". Watch this Youtube video as a demonstration.

 

 

Finally, there is the pattern recognition that spawned this thread. Here is an excerpt of Michael Shermer's TED talk on pattern seeking.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOMqDIXsLm8

 

For anyone that is interested, one of the methods I was taught to fine tune my observational skills is called the Kim's Game. Twenty random objects are placed on a table, and you have two minutes to note five qualities for each item: shape, size, color, condition, and what the object appears to be. Then write down your answers and compare to the objects on the table. As you get better with this, increase the amount of time between observation and recording, until you can do it accurately many hours afterward while doing tasks that you must concentrate on in between observation and recording.

[dduckwessel]

This is a philosphical question whose answer has been debated for quite some time. As written, I would not agree with the statement, as I am not in the camp with those who feel that observation creates reality.

 

Your words: You entirely missed the point. The rest of us can't differentiate.

 

What specifically did you mean when you said we can't differentiate?

 

Your words: It is specifcally our ability to generalize data from our eyes and sort into patterns that we expect to see that keeps the "normal" among us from going insane.

 

This statement of yours infers that what we expect to see, we then see. So then we are creating our own reality.

 

I would choose to phrase it something more like this, "We have evolved to create a model of reality based on visual clues with a reliance on past observations.

 

I don't understand. How is 'creating a model of reality based on visual clues with a reliance on past observations', different from 'observation creates reality'?

 

Thanks for the videos, they are interesting and fun but these are examples of optical illusions, which is entirely different from 'a model of reality...' - at least it seems that way to me.

[JMJones0424]

What specifically did you mean when you said we can't differentiate?

Really? I thought this was covered in post 54... normal individuals fail the convex/concave hollow mask test.

 

Your words: It is specifcally our ability to generalize data from our eyes and sort into patterns that we expect to see that keeps the "normal" among us from going insane.

 

This statement of yours infers that what we expect to see, we then see. So then we are creating our own reality.

 

No, the statement doesn't infer, you inferred, but we are digressing.

 

 

I don't understand. How is 'creating a model of reality based on visual clues with a reliance on past observations', different from 'observation creates reality'?

 

Well, that is the philosophical debate. There are many threads already covering this topic in that forum. As far as the topic of this thread is concerned, our brain processes visual input in many different ways, one of which is to specifically look for recurring patterns. That two structures look similar is not enough evidence to show that they have the same cause.

[dduckwessel]

Really? I thought this was covered in post 54... normal individuals fail the convex/concave hollow mask test.

 

I just wanted to be sure I understood what you were saying.

 

I know it's way off topic but one of the reasons why I'm interested is because I see strong similarities between schizophrenia and autism.

 

Autistic people also seem to have difficulties with the 'bottom-up' process of collecting incoming visual information from the eyes, and the 'top-down' process of interpreting this information. Instead they focus only on certain aspects of what they're seeing, completely blowing it out of proportion.

-interprets incoming sensory information on the basis of its context and a person's previous experience. Autistic people are highly sensory.

-sometimes this process can mean that people's perception of an object is quite different to reality. Autistic children live in a different world, unable to process all of the visual and auditory stimulus.

 

I think the similarities between schizophrenia and autism are just too close to be dismissed.

[dduckwessel]

...our ability to generalize data from our eyes and sort into patterns that we expect to see...

 

I was asking why spirals, whorls shapes, seem to be everywhere in nature. You responded with info about optical illusions.

 

Do you mean to say that when I'm looking at a hurricane (for example), it's not really a spiral shape (nor fingerprints, whorls) that I'm seeing?

[JMJones0424]

Do you mean to say that when I'm looking at a hurricane (for example), it's not really a spiral shape (nor fingerprints, whorls) that I'm seeing?

 

Not at all, nor did I imply that.