Why I Don't Like Islam

[Cedars]

It wasn't the main photo, but rather, a commenter's avatar. The site has since deleted it though.

 

Oh good. Then I didnt miss a really cool pic, just someones tasteless avatar. :)

[Buffy]

Oh good. Then I didnt miss a really cool pic, just someones tasteless avatar. :eek:

...unless you consider the Archbishop of Canterbury really cool.... :)

 

There, my lord: the high promotion of his grace of Canterbury; who holds his state at door, 'mongst pursuivants, pages, and footboys, :)

Buffy

[HydrogenBond]

I won't pretend to know much about the teachings of Islam. But one thing that seems possible is their isolation has put Islam in a time capsule that is more indicative of the past for other religions. There was more push to secularize Christianity to keep up with a rapidly advancing culture. But Islam didn't have the same secular push and is therefore more retro in many ways. There is now some change with respect to women, decades later. It is also possible the strict and violent edge is a final stand against rapid change, which may quite well be inevitable. The future Islam may look different.

[DougF]

Boerseun

So' date=' instead of saying "I don't like Islam", I'd rather say "I don't like the part of Islam getting all the 8 o'clock TV News coverage".

 

Same as I don't like religious freaks and nutjobs of any creed, colour, flavour or kind. [/quote']

 

I like it,

yes i think we agree

[LaurieAG]

The Bible is full of crap about women being subservient to men, something that the Fundamentalists point to constantly as an excuse to try to keep us all "barefoot and pregnant." OTOH, the Koran is full of rules that give women equal rights to men, which are *contradicted* by the "laws" that are in the "interpretations" of the Wahab's and the Shi'ites that are *not* part of the Koran.

 

That's how you tell!

 

Good point Buffy,

 

I would also add that there are other differences/simularities between the Old testament and the Koran while the New Testament is almost opposite in approach when compared to the two other documents (the Koran is almost half and half).

 

While the Old Testament is quite explicit in the instructions handed down for the genocide of inhabitants of cities who fail to surrender 'in peace', the Koran is more implicit but takes on the same meanings as in the Old Testament when twisted by the fundamentalists.

 

IMHO the only way to resolve these fundamental differences is to reveal the incredible similarities between those who hold such extreme views, regardless of what side they are on.

[rockytriton]

I don't remember reading anything in the Koran about equal rights for women. I do remember reading that the opinion or witness of two women is equal to that of one man though.

[rockytriton]

oh, and also don't forget koran 4:34:

 

"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great."

[Eclogite]

I don't remember reading anything in the Koran about equal rights for women.

In the early 1960s, in the United Kingdom, it was practically impossible for a single woman to get a mortgage to buy a house unless her father stood as gauruntor for the loan. Those of you who were born or grew up in the west after the feminist successes of the 1970s have little appreciation of the parallels between the attitudes to women in the west then and in many Islamic countries today.

Two points seem to me important in this:

1) This is a cultural issue, not a religious one.

2) Attitudes can change.

[rockytriton]

In the early 1960s, in the United Kingdom, it was practically impossible for a single woman to get a mortgage to buy a house unless her father stood as gauruntor for the loan. Those of you who were born or grew up in the west after the feminist successes of the 1970s have little appreciation of the parallels between the attitudes to women in the west then and in many Islamic countries today.

Two points seem to me important in this:

1) This is a cultural issue, not a religious one.

2) Attitudes can change.

 

I agree, it is more of a cultural issue than a religious issue. But when your religious text says that you may beat your wife, well, there are always going to be fundamentalists of the religion that thinks this is ok to do. Of course, I'm not saying that the jewish bible is any better than the koran in that sense. Hell that one says that you can kill your kids if they disobey you.

[C1ay]

My biggest problem with Islam itself is their expectation for me to respect their religion by actually practicing their religion. Consider for example their offense to anyone drawing a picture of Muhammad. Just this morning I stumbled across this petition to remove any and all depictions of Muhammad from WikiPedia. They don't understand that it is not their right to censor the world or order non-Muslims to practice Islam by censoring such images. People do not have a right to not be offended so they don't have any right to suppress any rights I might have that offend them.

[rockytriton]

In my religion, it is HIGHLY offensive for a woman to wear a shirt and bra. Therefore, in order to be sensitive to my religion, all women must go topless.

[Cedars]

Consider for example their offense to anyone drawing a picture of Muhammad. Just this morning I stumbled across this petition to remove any and all depictions of Muhammad from WikiPedia. They don't understand that it is not their right to censor the world or order non-Muslims to practice Islam by censoring such images. People do not have a right to not be offended so they don't have any right to suppress any rights I might have that offend them.

 

I dunno about you, but when I see things like this it just makes me want to whip up a few cartoons and slip them through photoshop for touch-ups.

 

This one cracked me up:

 

# 91696: Feb 5, 2008, -- I'm a retarded woman, so please take it off wikipedia before I'm tricked into being a suicide bomber!

[Boerseun]

That's bullshit.

 

It's like me having to respect blue, because it's your favourite colour.

 

Go ahead, pick your delusion. Then, for the love of all the gods of antiquity, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF.

[Galapagos]

In my opinion, Islam's declaration of finality and infallibility of the Quran make it a bit more dangerous than the other two Abrahamic religions. I don't really see any hope of removing the violence from modern Islam, particularly that surrounding the bigotry towards homosexuals and the sexism towards women, but also the jihad terrorist interpretations of the Quran.

 

Muslim universities and scholars claim that the book is not understandable through translation, and that you must learn Quranic Arabic before you can criticize it at all. This would indicate to me that there is basically a team of pseudo-scientists or pseudo-philosophers respected by the Muslim community who will have an elaborate and sophistic justification for any inconsistency on ethical, legal, or historical grounds by way of simply re-interpreting the book until it fits in with their presupposition.

This systematic and formally institutionalized immunization makes for a low chance of at the least a general reformation of anti-violence/anti-sexism/anti-bigotry, and at best a realization that there isn't any actual evidence separating it from any other mythology.

[rockytriton]

In my opinion, Islam's declaration of finality and infallibility of the Quran make it a bit more dangerous than the other two Abrahamic religions. I don't really see any hope of removing the violence from modern Islam, particularly that surrounding the bigotry towards homosexuals and the sexism towards women, but also the jihad terrorist interpretations of the Quran.

 

I'm confused, are you saying that Christians and Jews don't believe in the finality and infallibility of their respective books? If you don't think so, I can point you to places that make this very clear.

 

Also, I watched a couple good documentaries about homosexuals and religion, one about being outcast by their jewish family and another about their christian families. Not that I really care that much about homosexual religious issues, but they were available on the netflix "watch it now" and there was nothing better to watch. They were very good documentaries though.

[Galapagos]

I'm confused, are you saying that Christians and Jews don't believe in the finality and infallibility of their respective books? If you don't think so, I can point you to places that make this very clear.

 

Also, I watched a couple good documentaries about homosexuals and religion, one about being outcast by their jewish family and another about their christian families. Not that I really care that much about homosexual religious issues, but they were available on the netflix "watch it now" and there was nothing better to watch. They were very good documentaries though.

 

I'm sorry, I did word that poorly, but I understand that many Christians and Jews have a feeling similar to most Muslims about the infallibility or even inerrancy of their respective scripture.

 

The difference with Islam is that in order to be Muslim you must believe that the Quran is without error, you must believe that the printed version in existence today is identical to the one authored by Allah and conveyed to Mohammad by the Angel Gabriel some 1400 years ago. There is a correlation between infallibility and inerrancy, and because of this Islam is more well guarded than Judaism and Christianity in the minds of Muslims.

As far as finality, the Quran acknowledges both of the other Abrahamic faiths, and declares that those who adhere to them are also Muslims, they just aren't aware of it yet. Finality may have been a poor word choice(not that they don't believe in the finality either, but that belief isn't exclusive as you have pointed out), maybe inclusive is better?

My point is that Islam is different, being that the Muslims in general have more confidence in the historic preservation, and thusly infallibility of the Quran. The inclusiveness and declaration that this is the last in a series of three beliefs makes it a bit different as well.

 

As far as homosexuality in other faiths, I don't think their are Jewish or Christian governments still executing people for homosexuality.

The treatment of women in places like Saudi Arabia is something I really don't see changing any time soon, or at all, just because the Islamic belief about the Quran and things it says explicitly about women in the Quran.

 

 

Edit-The belief about single authorship is another unique idea that strengthens the belief of Muslims. Didn't want to leave that out.

 

While on the subject, has anyone ever read anything by Ibn Warraq? I've had "Why I Am Not A Muslim" on the shelf for about a year now, but Warraq is criticized for some improper translations and having a bias about the life of Mohammad etc., so I'm a bit weary of putting down other books to really give it a good read through.

I'm not sure if these criticisms are coming from objective middle-east scholars, or defensive Muslims, so if anyone has any input about the validity of his translation and explanations I would appreciate it before delving into it.

[rockytriton]

As far as homosexuality in other faiths, I don't think their are Jewish or Christian governments still executing people for homosexuality.

 

I think that's because there are no jewish or christian governments.