Illiteracy - it's the end of the world as we know it

[ErlyRisa]

--Um

 

yeah the tabulation didn't work out so well!

 

It's just my opinion regarding what I perceive to be the vocabulary sets of countries with respect to the US population...

 

ie if US pop were 100%

than

AU pop

afluent 50, average 50, lowerclass 60

 

I think it has to do with billion channels of media that is available at to them, and the confident nature of the US population.

 

A simple comparison is to converse with a Yankee 9 year old and an Aussie 9 year old. he yank isn't all that shy, and can converse even with the latest media sound bytes. The Aussie probably is a little shier, and stumbles not being able to find the word they want to express what they want. It starts to level at at adulthood, and I have noticed that here in Australia it is starting to change. The soccer mum is "badgering opinion" into thier child with the aid of the schools's teachers, and you can today walk up to an Aussie 9 year old and ask them what they think about the environment and they will be able to quote each end every sound byte ever broadcast by 2ue.

 

I heard about that magazine thing too...

It's why I find it ironic that the Union makes it mandatory at work sites that "rest tables" must be big enough to be able to have a broadsheet newspaper unfolded on it (The Age) -and we wonder why Factories move over seas.

[Michaelangelica]

 

 

Literacy rates could actually correlate to how much "agreeability" the population has. For example those that don't read much and may not be able to work (but I find that not to be the case in Australia, one of the richest men in Australia can't read) may feel that they are not a part of society, hence may be rebelious.

You are good at quoting your own "research"?

These people are needed... if your population is more like let's say Sweden, where all are quite well "educated" (I like to call them half-educated), then you have the risk of having a population that only thinks as ONE... their is no riff raff to provide for another perspectiv

e.

You are now confusing education with literacy. The ability to read does not give you an eduction (and sadly, vice versa?). I would imagine there would be many rich people in Australia who cannot read, it still does not mean they miss out on an awful lot that the culture has on offer.

US kids i have seen her tend to be exchange students and are verbally skilled; perhaps more so than many Oz kids. But then these days few teachers are prepared to put in the extra hours teaching debating etc.

"Educate" comes from the Latin and means "to lead out". True education should "lead out" and actualise the abilities of every kid/human. It should not make little clones of us all

So illiteracy is actually good!?

No its not good. Illiterate people follow demagogues too.

I would guess that those with an IQ of less than 70 or so would have many problems reading despite anyone's best efforts.

[ErlyRisa]

Teacher don't teach debating?

 

-it's practically all they do today....

 

most of them sacrifice real factual teaching for any opportunity to talk about "the issues". The 3 R's are a thing of the past - the teachers themselves don't know the 3 R's.

If you were to randomly walk into a primary school room tommorow, I could almost bet my house on the fact that you will walk in on a Debate or Issues class, rather than maybe the teacher teaching long division.

It's a cancer that has spread into our schools after Goth gave out education to the masses. Sadly everyone is only half educated ever since. -The institutions which that do the teaching of our educators are awash with those more concerned with preaching rather than teaching.

You could - walk into any university arts or even science class today, and find a lecturer going on about how to save the world, or what THEIR opinion is.. rather than providing the information for one to come up with thier own...

Hence Sweden - an over educated society, where there is no opinion just the one.

The left were very smart with thier agaenda on thiso one, in many ways they work like scientologists or other cults.

 

You see the left don't want educated people - otherwise they won't be regarded as the intelligentsia.

 

For example.. the Union movement. If you don't have the stupid to support to Union - then what? If everyone was their own boss - able to barter on any issue they wish, they would be smarter for that.

Amazingly enough you don't need fact to form an opinion.

 

 

(let's see how easy it is to load your gun)

[paigetheoracle]

You could argue that an Ant colony is civilisation too...

 

This "Doomsday" stuff is a freak of the western culture...

The proportion of Opinion Gestapo is actually very low in the X Communist block, and in practically every other country in the world.

 

Japan has always been an interesting case.

They have astounding leducational rates (and so they should for the amount of time they spend learning would drive a westerner crazy --but I think the worker ethic has finally changed there too)

The Japanese population are not overly zealous with mass opinion... they opinions are somewhat on par with say the Italians... but unlike the italians the Japs continue to work and adhere to government policy. (ie, you can't give an Italian a parking ticket - it just won't be paid... it's like the example of smoking being banned in French Cafe's --it just didn't work, the Fench would just look at the Ticket Gestapo and smirk)

 

 

Literacy rates could actually correlate to how much "agreeability" the population has. For example those that don't read much and may not be able to work (but I find that not to be the case in Australia, one of the richest men in Australia can't read) may feel that they are not a part of society, hence may be rebelious. These people are needed... if your population is more like let's say Sweden, where all are quite well "educated" (I like to call them half-educated), then you have the risk of having a population that only thinks as ONE... their is no riff raff to provide for another perspective.

 

So illiteracy is actually good!?

 

Nicely reasoned - see my convoluted reply to CraigD, which will take me time to sort out as I cover a lot of points, including this (office work fodder and entrepeneurs)

[paigetheoracle]

Teacher don't teach debating?

 

-it's practically all they do today....

 

most of them sacrifice real factual teaching for any opportunity to talk about "the issues". The 3 R's are a thing of the past - the teachers themselves don't know the 3 R's.

If you were to randomly walk into a primary school room tommorow, I could almost bet my house on the fact that you will walk in on a Debate or Issues class, rather than maybe the teacher teaching long division.

It's a cancer that has spread into our schools after Goth gave out education to the masses. Sadly everyone is only half educated ever since. -The institutions which that do the teaching of our educators are awash with those more concerned with preaching rather than teaching.

You could - walk into any university arts or even science class today, and find a lecturer going on about how to save the world, or what THEIR opinion is.. rather than providing the information for one to come up with thier own...

Hence Sweden - an over educated society, where there is no opinion just the one.

The left were very smart with thier agaenda on thiso one, in many ways they work like scientologists or other cults.

 

You see the left don't want educated people - otherwise they won't be regarded as the intelligentsia.

 

For example.. the Union movement. If you don't have the stupid to support to Union - then what? If everyone was their own boss - able to barter on any issue they wish, they would be smarter for that.

Amazingly enough you don't need fact to form an opinion.

 

 

(let's see how easy it is to load your gun)

 

Sadly I have to agree with this. Socialism seems to be pushing ahead with idealist goals that don't educate children(bring out their creative abilities)but try to be 'fair' in their teaching methods, which means nobody has to try and so they don't (If everybody gets the same praise for their effort/ lack of effort - why try?). Competition brings out the best in kids as long as they don't take failure too seriously and cheat, lie, steal and threaten to get success.

 

As I've said elsewhere, the science of teaching is to put in the basics through rote learning (spelling/ times tables) and let children extemporize (be creative) from there. Logic states children can't start writing stories, until they've learnt to read and spell ( You can't drive a car anywhere, until you've filled it with fuel or shoot a gun until it's loaded). A good teacher brings out what is in the child - a bad one indoctrinates the child with his knowledge (shows off). As for debating - sounds more like waffling to avoid effort in this case.

[HydrogenBond]

Illiteracy could be a function of too much multi-media. Before all this multi-media, the best source of information was written in books. Now instead of reading books actively, one can get a lot of information passively by sitting in the lecture hall called the TV. Maybe a study should be done with respect to multi-media literacy or the ability to obtain information using means other than books. This is on the rise, as a sign of the times, as knowledge output venues change due to technology.

 

One can trace this change to the free market. The goal is to make money. To maximize that, one needs to create the widest possible market share. If the multimedia only catered to the advancement of knowledge, this would set a limit on the amount of revenue one could generate. One needs to reach the lowest common denominator for the lion's share of revenue. You can't make the multi-media a challenge, it has to be a nice back rub. The result is literacy has a competitor, that offers free back rubs. The new technology makes this look high tech so the back rub appears to be an advanced learning tool that can be substituted for reading. It is sort of like making change with a calculator. It works well without anyone realizing their inability to do the math in the head is a sign of arithmetic illiteracy.

[ErlyRisa]

"The Lawn Mower Man"

Tech Media can and will (or already could if their were enough programmers on the planet) provide for education beyond our current comprehension.

 

Problem: Schizophrenia, and worse still CPU (aka Brain) overload.

 

The Lawn Mower Man doesn't become the person that we would hope him to become - instead he becomes the Scientologist Thetan level whatever.

 

I personally am not ready to see us switch over to instant learning just yet. The problem is the transition that we are talking to get their. Technological avenues for information are quite monopolised. I somtimes refer to what we perceive to be democracy as polycracy ... it's not the demo that makes the decision, it's the poly entities, from Hollywood stars through to pooper scooter inventors.

 

-the monopolised nature of the information we (that's everyone incluing the adults) recieve results in many of us become "preachers" for the monopoly. These preachers are usually the half educated of us in the first place, or usually thirst for power in way way or another. -in the end rote type learning suffers, mainly becuase those that are being fed with information, were in effect taught that way - now that's the techniques that they use to teach.

 

In Australia it took only 2 generations - we now have no male teachers left - they just can't cope with the "female logic" that has over run the system.

[CraigD]

In Australia it took only 2 generations - we now have no male teachers left - they just can't cope with the "female logic" that has over run the system.

This claim is, by all the data I browsed, simply and completely wrong. For example, according to https://jobsearch.gov.au/joboutlook/default.aspx?pageId=KeyInfo3&AscoCode=2413#gender, 44% of Australian secondary school teachers are male, and there was a net increase in male teachers and a decrease in females between 2000 and 2005.

 

:cup: Please start following the site rule to support your claims with links and references. :) Not only does following this rule reduce the likelihood of writing simply incorrect things, it helps the writer to form better and more accurate ideas. It also relieves the reader of the arduous task of having to sift through such posts to determine which of its “facts” are reliable, and which fabricated, and reduces the likelihood of the reader simply dismissing all of the ideas in a post because some of its claims are obviously false.

 

The old joke “87% of all statistics are made up on the spot” is intended as a warning to readers to check the source and validity of published statistics, not encouragement for writers to make them up as needed to support speculation! :shrug:

[ErlyRisa]

This claim is, by all the data I browsed, simply and completely wrong. For example, according to https://jobsearch.gov.au/joboutlook/default.aspx?pageId=KeyInfo3&AscoCode=2413#gender, 44% of Australian secondary school teachers are male, and there was a net increase in male teachers and a decrease in females between 2000 and 2005.

 

:confused: Please start following the site rule to support your claims with links and references. :shrug: Not only does following this rule reduce the likelihood of writing simply incorrect things, it helps the writer to form better and more accurate ideas. It also relieves the reader of the arduous task of having to sift through such posts to determine which of its “facts” are reliable, and which fabricated, and reduces the likelihood of the reader simply dismissing all of the ideas in a post because some of its claims are obviously false.

 

The old joke “87% of all statistics are made up on the spot” is intended as a warning to readers to check the source and validity of published statistics, not encouragement for writers to make them up as needed to support speculation! :hihi:

 

 

Yes secoondary not so bad (but I would look into more than just one statistic)

--for example I would have to say that most of those male secondary (and primary) male teachers are in private/religious schools (where left wing ideology isn't as strongly advocated).

A state school on the other hand is almost exclusively female... (I presume that their would also be more of an "increase" on Jobsearch because the private schools actually use normal capatalist avenues to find new teachers, whereas state school teachers are usually employed by word of mouth - behind the iron curtain)

 

Oh -- why isn't their any statistics like this to support my claim .... well the people doing the statistics do it for who?

[Michaelangelica]

Yes secoondary not so bad (but I would look into more than just one statistic)

--for example I would have to say that most of those male secondary (and primary) male teachers are in private/religious schools (where left wing ideology isn't as strongly advocated).

You could not get a more left wing ideology that Catholicism or Anglicanism- which comprise most private schools in Australia.

"Reds under the beds" is a nonsense.

Even if it wasn't, Communist Governments (Viet-nam, China) seem to take literacy very seriously

A state school on the other hand is almost exclusively female...

Rubbish I doubt if there is very much difference

But even if there is, so what?

(I presume that their would also be more of an "increase" on Jobsearch because the private schools actually use normal capatalist avenues to find new teachers,

Do they? They don't employ ex Catholic students? or insist on a person being a Christian before hiring?

whereas state school teachers are usually employed by word of mouth - behind the iron curtain)

Paranoid rubbish.

Oh -- why isn't their any statistics like this to support my claim .... well the people doing the statistics do it for who?

From my own observations you are probably right about pre-school and kindergarden and maybe even year 1 or 2

Possibly as small children's education is still seen as a "female roll" and women are prepared to put up with the lousy salaries for the job satisfaction and holidays-so they can look after their own kids.

But what has this got to do with the topic?

[ErlyRisa]

The Iron Curtain I refer to is the 'Clic" ---> and yes the private schools have developed thier own clic, re-employing thier X students. I am sure the same happens in the state system.

 

...but their is a major problem (here in Australia at least)... where teachers have to work in an environment where if an individuals opinion differs from the collectives (which is driven by the bleeding heart female, which in effect stems from the monopolised media)

 

..hence why instead of overall pay rises a system of weeding out the useless was being implemented with the previous government (though I must say I personally disagree with)

 

++++++

The problem with statistics is that pretty much all of them are quoted out of context... hence it was quite easy to show that quoting a Jobsearch figure is about as bland a figure as the amount of hectares on Gondwanaland.

 

-It would be easier to to take a human observation, from several sources and average out a median conclusion. It's how the rabbis do it.

 

-As for female teachers in primary becasue of lower wages....

-many a private school wage is actually less than the equivalent state position.

-Due to "politcal corectness" , and "the Boogie man" - males would rather opt out of educating "little kids", -the stress of making sure that you don't do anything that would be percieved as "wrong" by the other staff - and even parents, is near on impossible to cope with.

 

...I bring up another problem.. police checks for all people that work or even volunteer where there are kids.

...Why would I bother volunteering if the first thing presumed of me is that I am a rapist, --> and If I had of been convicted of let's say underaged sex as a teen - does that disqualify me from ever becoming a teacher? -actually, it disqualify's me from even delivering groceries to a tennis club's meet.

 

Californication.

[Michaelangelica]

 

...I bring up another problem.. police checks for all people that work or even volunteer where there are kids.

...Why would I bother volunteering if the first thing presumed of me is that I am a rapist, --> and If I had of been convicted of let's say underaged sex as a teen - does that disqualify me from ever becoming a teacher? -actually, it disqualify's me from even delivering groceries to a tennis club's meet.

 

Californication.

This is the only part of your post I can understand

You seem to use your own mental shorthand so it is hard to find the logic in what you are saying. You also seem to be carrying a heavy load of assumptions, internal 'research', factoids, and prejudices.

 

Yes this is a sadness. "Paedophilia" is the word of the month. In fact it has probably been going on for eons. In a few cultures, the norm.

I am waiting for my police check now.

I am told even Santa has to watch where his hands are in the photos.

I was glad to see a primary school teacher cuddling an upset kid last year so it has not got everyone paranoid.

[ErlyRisa]

I would like to see the statistics for the University drop out rates for Teaching...

 

Also the level the at which an aspiring student teacher TRIES to take on subject material that gets them into higher level education... specifically the sciences.

 

Here is a statistic that would also be interesting...

 

The amount of teachers that would state that they used to smoke marijuana. The statistics would be quite surprising... and my assumption would be that their would be more of the X bong smokers teaching at the primary level than the secondary.

 

(I personally know a teacher... and all of her collegues that I know of smoked, some of them still smoking, she quit only after she "moved from private" to get better pay at a state school, and probably finally quit in the fear that she would be found out - > ? again.)

 

______________________________________________________

 

I actually have an intersting idea, and it takes on some of the US principals of the education system.

It would be quite handy to actually "USE" university students from several disciplines as "guest lecturers" at high schools, and maybe even primary.

It would be as a University wide subject (learning lecturing 101) - a subject that could be chosen as an extra, to learn how to teach. The students LearnLect101 subject would be tailored to thier course. They would have to choose a subject material which is of secondary or primary level, and organise an hour lecture, or practical. (whatever, the finer pionts can be figured out)

 

eg. Arts Student... doing Fine arts or maybe History of...

Could give an hour presentation 3 times for practise, at local primary schools.

A science student could run a practical, one tailored for typical secondary school equipment.

An Eng student could give a presentation on higher maths, like show hw complex numbers can be used in a real world example.

 

...an alternative to this setup (and I think its already been done), is to have excursions to universities. The kids would spend a day a fortnight, learning with more at thier disposal.

 

although a bit airy fairy in nature... it could provide for the advanced kids (although in Australia thier has been a culture to hold back the advanced kids), and it could also provide some inspiration for those that may not be inspired.

 

...similar setups are already being used with Tafe colleges. (to the intnationals reading TAFE is Technical something or other college -- a place where you can grab a half degree to state that you have spent some time learning about a particular subject)

[Michaelangelica]

I would like to see the statistics for the University drop out rates for Teaching...

 

Also the level the at which an aspiring student teacher TRIES to take on subject material that gets them into higher level education... specifically the sciences.

 

Here is a statistic that would also be interesting...

 

The amount of teachers that would state that they used to smoke marijuana. The statistics would be quite surprising... and my assumption would be that their would be more of the X bong smokers teaching at the primary level than the secondary.

 

How do you tell if you are a true Aussie?

How do you tell if you are a true Aussie? - Richard Glover - Opinion

How do you tell if you are a true Aussie? - Richard Glover - Opinion

Very funny, Richard Glover at his best.

a sample

Quote:

5. You've made a bong out of your garden hose rather than use it for something illegal such as watering the garden.

FROM

http://hypography.com/forums/social-sciences/11764-australia-28.html?highlight=australia

How does this relate to illiteracy?

 

 

______________________________________________________

I actually have an intersting idea, and it takes on some of the US principals of the education system.

It would be quite handy to actually "USE" university students from several disciplines as "guest lecturers" at high schools, and maybe even primary.

This is being tried , very successfully , in the UK where undergraduate science and maths people teach in schools as part of their courses. Many decide to take up teaching as a result.

[ErlyRisa]

LOL

 

Oh ok --> so it's not so airy fairy (Uni Students becoming de-facto teachers)

 

Problem is transport... it could probably work very well in the European scenario, where relying on the car ain't such a big deal. Here though.... an example.

 

A friends daughter does Mechanics at a "local Tafe", outside of her normal Curiculae... she travels near on across two suburbs via a bus system that only turns up hourly.

 

I just can't see how you could get a Uni student to fork out thier own money to drive down to a school (which would have to be a reasonable distance anyway, because thier are more highschools than unis - but then again they probably are transporting themselves a fair distance to get to uni --some across the entire metro area! -> a little detour can't be too bad, if anything maybe something could be organised where the Uni student goes back to their own school (if they want to - some may not))

 

As for illiteracy, the mixture of New defacto teachers in the school system, would hopefully alleviate pressure on the real Teachers so that they can concetrate on teaching the basics, so that the students are better able to understand the De-facto teacher sessions.

eg. Instead of a primary teacher having to have concetrate on creating dynamic and interesting material, like wasting time doing "environmentaly freindly collages", they would only be required to actually do "old style teaching", with less hours.

Of course, the Defacto student teachers would have to be quite responsible and adult in nature - something which is getting thinner with each new generation.

[paigetheoracle]

One can trace this change to the free market. The goal is to make money. To maximize that, one needs to create the widest possible market share. If the multimedia only catered to the advancement of knowledge, this would set a limit on the amount of revenue one could generate. One needs to reach the lowest common denominator for the lion's share of revenue. You can't make the multi-media a challenge, it has to be a nice back rub. The result is literacy has a competitor, that offers free back rubs. The new technology makes this look high tech so the back rub appears to be an advanced learning tool that can be substituted for reading. It is sort of like making change with a calculator. It works well without anyone realizing their inability to do the math in the head is a sign of arithmetic illiteracy.

 

The lowest common denominator is right and that is the problem - instead of challenging the population, we're degrading it. As I said to CraigD earlier on, what I see in email spam is the desperate attempt to get your attention (like a child) but no real interest in what the spammer is doing (bored and boring people, whose only skill is in finding new tricks to decieve you into believing spam is genuine traffic). 'Bread and circuses'

[paigetheoracle]

It’s not really a matter of my not being willing to take “I know” as an answer – our forum rules include:

Statements like "I just know that this is the way it is" (especially when religion is being discussed) are considered ignorant and might be deleted.

There are many forums on the internet where unsupported statements of opinion are welcome – hypography is just not one of them. Claims made here are required to be backed up with scientific evidence.

 

(1) 'I know' was meant as a joke (very 'literate' play on words - a pun, a jest in time but maybe you don't have 'Won't take 'no' for an answer').

 

Without such rules, and moderators to enforce it, this would not be a science forum, but an opinion forum.I didn’t intend to give that impression. I’ve a fair amount of professional experience in specifically the branch of education concerned with the problem of illiteracy and Innumeracy: three years of writing remedial English and math educational software for a consortium of state educational agencies; and 2 years of teaching essentially remedial high school in the Virginia state prison system. While I consider myself “left leaning”, I don’t think it accurate to describe me as naïve.

 

(3) Infinite made the same point when I joined in May 2 years ago but Social Science (Sociology) isn't a real science and as for statistics, that doesn't really fall into the category of the physical sciences either does it? (Architecture, Linguistics, Philosophy etc.). And where does the Watercooler come into all this? Yes I know by the door as you come in!

 

Don't fall into the trap of enforcing the letter of the law, losing sense of its purpose: Those who don't understand, enforce (less lenient/ tolerant - more fanatical because they are afraid of getting it wrong, than old experienced hands are. I know you're only doing your job and I'm only doing mine by pointing out facts and points of view that belong to logic, thought and the internally guided world we call the arts.

 

I believe we’re experiencing some miscommunication in that I’m using a fairly old, conventional use of the word “literacy”, which I attempted to qualify as “basic literacy”. This is simply the ability to read and write sufficiently to understand and convey simple instructions using a language. More modern uses of the word apply it to a “continuum of learning”.

 

(2) In the UK it also means educated and implies intelligence in the form of wit i.e. able to play with words, whichfollows on from basic knowledge of the language.

 

The ALL survey to which paigetheoracle refers, and related studies, such as the IALS are test of a broad range of skills. They’re complicated studies, intended to assess the strengths and weaknesses of the educational systems of the participating countries. They are, I believe, not intended and poorly suited for predicting the collapse of society.

 

On a more fundamental level, I’m skeptical that:

1. The average academic and practical life skills abilities of people in the US and/or other countries are decreasing (or increasing) significantly
   
2. Civilization is in danger of collapsing. This belief, which I called “the Chicken Little syndrome”, appears to be common at all times in history. Many people at many times in recorded history have felt that civilization was on the verge of collapse, yet even in the face of severe economic and political failure, it has not collapsed.
   

 

(4) Please remain sceptical but do open your eyes to change. I believe the stress of competition led to columbine and other massacres in American schools and colleges - in Britain we have the opposite effect of unchallenged kids dropping out of schools and forming violent gangs, with members as young as ten: 52 murders by youths and children a year, with half in London alone). Brains abandoned in favour of brawn (drink, drugs, violence as opposed to sobriety and effort (self-discipline) - that is facing your fears of humiliation from having to perform in front of an audience (the public arena of the classroom). Tribalism versus cohesive civilization. In Japan the stress leads to bullying and suicide (sorry no figures). To me this all evidence of a society not coping and not knowing where it is going. In the UK it started with working mothers (Latch Key Kids) and no parental figure to control the children when they got home from school and has progressed from there.

 

(5) Another point. The only reason we're negative about something is to make somebody feel inferior/ insecure, so that they buy your line/ product. In my case - Logic Lists English, my language teaching workbook series. A content person wants for nothing, so can't be sold anything (see Freud's nephews impact on the American advertising industry for the significance of this and why the market place is flooded with 'Chinese Meal' products that are ingenious but leave you going back to using more cruder methods because you can't be bothered to dig out this specialist tool from where it is hidden and hardly ever used).

 

(6) The reason anecdotal evidence isn't trusted in science is that it is one persons word and they could be lying/ deluded (wrong) in their assumption of what they experienced. Multi-witness evidence is less likely to be doubtful or a hoax because it is harder to co-ordinate a giant lie and still keep your facts straight, especially with random sampling and repetition of questioning over time (police interrogation)

 

(7) Lastly, it's all about time. The faster we run away from life, the less we accumulate in our fear and excitement (youth). The slower we go, the more we collect in knowledge and possessions (Bucking Bronco or long suffering (tolerant) settler.

 

I observe - I don't judge (emotionally categorize), therefore I learn (take on knowledge). Pioneers need to learn from their experiences (he travels fastest who travels empty).