Is religion harmful to society?

[Moontanman]

Pamela - You wrote: "... He [warren] is certainly not to be trusted, and quite frankly, I do not want him any where near our government, much less our president.

 

Our President Elect begs to dissagree.

 

 

Moontan - You wrote: "The Roman Catholic Church and it's basic corruption of and it's changes to the word of God was the catalyst for the formation of Islam."

 

Jeezzus Christ. The corruption of the church led to the friggn REFORMATION. Not to ISLAM. Now YOU look like some sort of False Flag opperation. Jeezus.

 

 

Moontan - You wrote: " The Catholic church started the war between Islam and Christianity.."

 

You nincompoop. The Crusades were a COUNTER ATTACK. My God, talking about wayward children....

 

Litespeed I am not talking about the protestant reformation i am talking about the formation of Islam about 800 years earlier, Mohammad used the perceived corruption of scripture by the Catholics, and the perceived polytheism of Catholicism, the trinity and all the saints, as an excuse to form his own monotheistic religion. He went to the Jewish rabbis and to get his doctrine and they made him pay for a corrupted version because they knew he was forming his own religion. this and other reasons were used to show the Jews had changed and corrupted the Scriptures too. He then proceeded to form his own religion centered around monotheism taking huge amounts of it from both Judaism and Christianity. As for the Crusades, it's more political than it was an actual attempt to free anyone. It was a way to take power away from nobles and to get rid of the problems of too many landless nobles. Yes Islam was advancing but the actual reason to take over the holy land had very little to do with this advancement of Islam and everything to do with making a show of the strength of Christianity and the problem of landless nobles. Subsequent crusades had even less to do with any real attempt to do anything more than provide a way to add to the coffers of the Pope. Lets not even talk about the Children's crusades where tens of thousands of children were sent into slavery and death for purely political gain. all in all it shows how religion was nothing but a stumbling block in the path of civilization not it's savior.

[modest]

What Moontanman is saying is written into the Qur'an,

From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

 

~modest

[litespeed]

I have risen from my crypt, drank two cups of coffee and smoked three cigarets. Accordingly I am in a better mood today, and may address some of these issues later in a more civilized manner. In the mean time I out on errands!

 

PS Moontan: I am unaware of much christianity among the polythiests of the pre-Islamic period. Clearly Islamic theologians were aware of both christianity and Judaism, and many Jews lived among them. However, please provide some citations that show Christian corruption among the polythiests that would be consequential to Muhammed.

 

PPS: A letter from the Bishop of Medina or Mecca to the Holy See in Rome would be sufficient.

[Thunderbird]

I think it’s important to acknowledge the real threat to civilization is fundamentalism, not religion . fundamentalist goals are political. A model for a ruling class elite. Ideology + Power + force = More Power. Belonging to a group of like minded people does not necessarily mean that all others outside that group are the enemy . Diversity allows for the new groups to emerge in the first place . If one group actually succeeded in taking over completely complexity would give way to homogeneity. The group would lose the sense of being special in the first place that living in a diverse global culture gave them.

 

The problem comes when we start crystallizing within our minds that societies ills can be cured quickly by gaining control of a society globally from the top down. Societies are held together and progress from the bottom up. Small scale changes over a wide range activities. People doing their job well and setting good examples for their fellows.

 

I have never held a powerful position of authority but that does not mean that I have not brought about changes in the community and in my work place. I have found that so called power of authority is lame compared with just doing the right things at the right time and letting the momentum move people in the best direction. Which by the way is not determined by me but by them. A paradigm that Seeks the best possible outcome for everyone involved will survive in a meme far better than one based on force. We tend forget, or choose not to notice all the basic unobtrusive ways we create a civil society.

 

I belong to a community church but have always looked to science as the light of leadership that keeps above the fray of ideology of the masses. When science becomes an agent for a model formulae of Ideology + Power + force = more power, we will lose one of the basic stabilities factors of a civil society.

 

:D Be my sister, be my brother,

not my father, nor my mother.

[Moontanman]

I have risen from my crypt, drank two cups of coffee and smoked three cigarets. Accordingly I am in a better mood today, and may address some of these issues later in a more civilized manner. In the mean time I out on errands!

 

PS Moontan: I am unaware of much christianity among the polythiests of the pre-Islamic period. Clearly Islamic theologians were aware of both christianity and Judaism, and many Jews lived among them. However, please provide some citations that show Christian corruption among the polythiests that would be consequential to Muhammed.

 

PPS: A letter from the Bishop of Medina or Mecca to the Holy See in Rome would be sufficient.

 

 

You are still proceeding on a false assumption, the Christians were and still are the polytheists to the Jews and the Muslims.

I know Christians don't see it that way but i don't put any of these guys on a pedestal, they are all equally BS to me.

[Thunderbird]

Check out this fellow. inspiring

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnlhZyW959k http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnlhZyW959k

[litespeed]

Moon

 

You provided: "...We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment..."

 

So, Islamic forces took a convent of nunns. And apparently killed all of them. And THIS is what you provide me as evidence of Roman Catholic Corruption that influenced The Prophet?

[Moontanman]

Moon

 

You provided: "...We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment..."

 

So, Islamic forces took a convent of nunns. And apparently killed all of them. And THIS is what you provide me as evidence of Roman Catholic Corruption that influenced The Prophet?

 

litespeed! dude! Throttle back a bit, I said no such thing, provided no such information and didn't say anything what so ever about nuns or killing nuns. I suggest you take a sedative and reread my posts use a reality filter that doesn't use Christianity as it's base or any religion at all for that matter.

[litespeed]

Moon

 

For arguements sake, let us assume one of the nunns lept upon one of the faithfull and beat him to death with a large soup spoon. Everyone agrees he is promised immediate entry to paradise. My question to you is twofold.

 

1) Did that entry to paradise include any virgins?

2) If so, was he married to any of them?

[modest]

That was me that quoted that. It speaks to the influence Christianity had on the authorship of the Qur'an.

 

~modest

[litespeed]

Moon

 

My appologies. It was MODEST. My response SHOULD have been address to him. Further, I will research the Quanic citation to see if there is some sort of 'false flag' operation going on here

 

Once again, I offer regrets for my error...

[Moontanman]

Moon

 

For arguements sake, let us assume one of the nunns lept upon one of the faithfull and beat him to death with a large soup spoon. Everyone agrees he is promised immediate entry to paradise. My question to you is twofold.

 

1) Did that entry to paradise include any virgins?

2) If so, was he married to any of them?

 

Dude, what in the hell are you talking about?

[litespeed]

[5.13] But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).

 

What are you up to, Mr. Modest?

[REASON]

Moon

 

For arguements sake, let us assume one of the nunns lept upon one of the faithfull and beat him to death with a large soup spoon. Everyone agrees he is promised immediate entry to paradise. My question to you is twofold.

 

1) Did that entry to paradise include any virgins?

2) If so, was he married to any of them?

 

Hey litespeed, if you're not going to take this discussion seriously, why don't you just quit posting. Your responses and comments are very trollesque and beside the point - not to mention your rudeness.

 

It's obvious that for you, this is all about hating Muslims. Fine. But quit acting like Christianity is free from guilt in this world. It makes you appear brainwashed.

[Moontanman]

Moon

 

My appologies. It was MODEST. My response SHOULD have been address to him. Further, I will research the Quanic citation to see if there is some sort of 'false flag' operation going on here

 

Once again, I offer regrets for my error...

 

Apology accepted, lets not get carried away here, no deceitful operation is going on here, I have no particular love for any of the mythologies presented here. to me they are equally mythological in base, in operation and equally suspect.

 

 

Just the facts ma'am

[litespeed]

Moontan:

 

I made the mistake of taking Modest as an honest poster. This FALSE FLAG thing seems to be something of an epidemic on this thread. Again. My regrets.

[modest]

I will research the Quanic citation to see if there is some sort of 'false flag' operation going on here

 

If the Christian influence on Islam is something that interests you, you should also check out the story of Bahira. There are a lot of stories like that in Islamic tradition. I recall one involves Caesar.

 

Here's another,

 

A??ama ibn Abjar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I'm not sure what a person would take from these more than a cultural tradition concerning Christianity and the beginning of Islam. I think is good to understand that tradition given current events.

 

~modest