Is religion harmful to society?

[InfiniteNow]

...

[InfiniteNow]

You should be specific because your general claims mean nothing. I said that religion has given us gifts, it has, more and better gifts than say, atheism. (not that atheism is bad but there is no Pyramids, or wondrous buildings that could compare with the chapels and pyramids etc. built by and for atheists).

Works out well considering atheism is not a worldview. It is a lack of theism, so OF COURSE it hasn't given us gifts of the nature you suggest.

 

It's as if you're suggesting that religion has given us more gifts and art than a lack of belief in Thor or a lack of belief in Zeus and Apollo has given us... Or chastising people because their lack of belief in the tooth fairy has not inspired them to put forth new art.

 

 

On top of that, I'd like to mention that YOU TOO ARE ATHEIST for 99.9% of the worlds gods. We just go one god further... So, there's always that.

[RevOfAllRevs]

Works out well considering atheism is not a worldview. It is a lack of theism, so OF COURSE it hasn't given us gifts of the nature you suggest.

 

Of course. Not all atheism is hard atheism though. So where is their contribution?

 

It's as if you're suggesting that religion has given us more gifts and art than a lack of belief in Thor or a lack of belief in Zeus and Apollo has given us... Or chastising people because their lack of belief in the tooth fairy has not inspired them to put forth new art.

 

No no no. Say I am a atheist and I lead a group of oh lets call it the American atheists. (perhaps that rings a bell? http://www.atheists.org/ ...!!GONG!!!) Why couldn't I contribute etc? You are not making any sense at all. An atheist can build a cathedral or do a wonderful work of art...right? I was asking where is it and what has the atheist done to enrich society?

 

On top of that, I'd like to mention that YOU TOO ARE ATHEIST for 99.9% of the worlds gods. We just go one god further... So, there's always that.

 

? I believe that God is God and every religious person worships the same god if they know it or not. God is God. Religion is just assigns attributes to God, I have a hunch no religion has all the attributes 100% correct, but some are closer than others of being correct. I happen to think Christianity is more correct than the rest. That's all folks...

 

Stymied again eh?

 

 

; }>

[Boerseun]

Of course. Not all atheism is hard atheism though. So where is their contribution?

Contribution? Why would any atheist want to "contribute" in the name of atheism? You could, of course, make the case that 90% of modern day technology was done by atheists in the name of... (oh **** - there is no deity to honor...)... but that won't work for you. Atheists do what they do because they like what they do. They do art, science, technology etc. for its own sake. Beat that, bible boy. No, sorry - that was just rude.

No no no. Say I am a atheist and I lead a group of oh lets call it the American atheists. (perhaps that rings a bell? www.atheists.org/ ...!!GONG!!!) Why couldn't I contribute etc? You are not making any sense at all. An atheist can build a cathedral or do a wonderful work of art...right? I was asking where is it and what has the atheist done to enrich society?

It's silly, of course, to expect atheists to build cathedrals. "Wonderful works of art" they do, daily, by the thousands. For years. I can start enumerating them, but I'm sure you're well aware of it, so I won't bother. Assuming only a theist can produce works of art merely displays your ignorance of art. Really.

? I believe that God is God and every religious person worships the same god if they know it or not. God is God. Religion is just assigns attributes to God, I have a hunch no religion has all the attributes 100% correct, but some are closer than others of being correct. I happen to think Christianity is more correct than the rest. That's all folks...

So you're single-handedly saying that all Bhuddists, Jews, Muslims, Seventh day Adventists, Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baalists, Shintoists, believers in Jupiter, Zeus, Neptune, etc. are wrong? Like InfiniteNow said - you're already an atheist regarding 99% of all proposed gods. The only difference between you and us ungodly folk, is that we merely go that final 1% further.

Stymied again eh?

Yes, actually, I am. Or "at a loss for words" might work better.

[modest]

I was asking where is it and what has the atheist done to enrich society?

 

...you ask as you type on a computer invented by an atheist.

 

~modest

[Michaelangelica]

No evidence needed there. It is a known fact. Actually those that assert otherwise must provide evidence.

Well, that's a cop out.! In my experience evidence is the last thing the Religious zelot wants to take on board. Many Yanks see things from a Yank perspective where mindless fundamentalism is on a par with Saudi Arabia. This alienates may scientists; but even here "One on three believe in God".-

Survey: 1 in 3 Scientists Believe in God | Christianpost.com

If you look at other countries the figure is much higher--twice as high in the UK for example

"About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do.

The study, along with another one released in June, would appear to debunk the oft-held notion that science is incompatible with religion."

Scientists' Belief in God Varies Starkly by Discipline | LiveScience

.

The majority of political and even Church leaders do not believe in creationism

"The majority of leading public figures including church leaders and politicians do not believe in the Biblical version of the Creation, according to a BBC survey.

BBC News | TALKING POINT | Questioning Creation theory - Your reaction

 

"RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today."

 

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems."

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side' - Times Online

 

I fail to see how those inventions and funding has any relevance to harm of religion, or alternatively that secular is tolerant.

i was correcting or elaborating on a previous post. Money has no connection with religion ?

 

 

Paeants had houses, but the issue here is the beauty and grandiose of the religious buildings. Rev's statement was easy to understand. Religious buildings, from Pyramids, to Greek pantheons, to gothic cathedrals were erected with the purpose of glorification of diety and greatness of the instutitons that built them. Simple and true statement.

Yes, true, but i would prefer to have been warm, well fed, not in slavery and not exploited in this life.

 

Tolerant Arabs of the era? Hold on. Islam was born on desert robberies and plunderings. Mohammed specifically engaged in robberies to raise money. The Arabs of the time were slaughtering christians and others in their way and burning settlements in their path. I don't know where you get the tolerant and cultured.

Read some history; and stop believing the racist, stereotypical Yank propaganda that has been churned out of Hollywood for the last 100 years. The Arabs from 500 and especially around 1000 AD make the European Christians look like ignorant, backward barbarians. We have the Arabs-Muslim world to thank for preserving the wisdom of the BC Greeks, despite the zelots:-

What happened to the great library of Alexandria?

 

As Christians gained dominance in the region, they felt uncomfortable with pagan temples full of pagan documents. In 391 AD, Theophilus, the patriarch of Alexandria, urged a mob to destroy the temple at Serapis, presumably at the same time destroying whatever books were left in the daughter library. This was hailed as a great victory of the Christians over the pagans.

 

The final fire was in 645 AD, when the Moslem caliph Omar conquered Egypt. The story is that Omar was asked what to do about the books in the library, and gave the reply: "If the books agree with the Koran, they are not necessary. If they disagree, they are not desired. Therefore, destroy them." According to tradition, the scrolls were used as fuel to provide hot water for the soldiers' baths for six months.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2233/what-happened-to-the-great-library-of-alexandria

 

This is the problem of shallow inquiry. You are looking at final conclusions and actions of men who reasoned on their beliefs, without analyzing the reasoning of the time. We've done the same in the secular sector, which is to act and impose our reasoning stemming from todays secular beliefs within and without jurisdiciton. Prime examples are Civil war in U.S., Napoleon and French revolution, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam with the Kurds and Kuwaitiis and U.S. in Iraq, and it goes on and on. Secular tought has been maybe even more catastrophic in many instances.

I have no idea what this means

 

Where do you come up with endemic pedophilia? Pedophilia is endemic to human species.

People walking wounded in pain?

The Canadian and Irish Catholic chuch is almost bankrupted due to priest's pedophilia law suits. There are countless thosands of cases world wide.

The pain is the continuing one cased to the victims of paedophiles.

 

And, dude, murder has nothing to do with religion. Blaming murder on religion is crazy. in fact, it is so crazy that it is a defense to murder in english common law system.

You live in a so-called "Christian" county that sanctions legal murder.

The only other country that executes more of its citizens than you is China.

What happened to, "Thou shall not kill"?

That seems pretty unambiguous.

 

Donations gift and charity not for profit. Zero sum game.

# a foundation created to promote the public good (not for assistance to any particular individuals)

 

• a kindly and lenient attitude toward people
  
• an activity or gift that benefits the public at large
  
• understanding towards others, now especially suggesting generosity
  
• Benevolence to others less fortunate than ourselves
   
  

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn & wiki

Given these definitions, we might question whether the big institutional religions deserve charitable status.

[Michaelangelica]

...you ask as you type on a computer invented by an atheist.

 

~modest

A gay one, who committed suicide, possibly because of church homophobia. He also probably won WW2 by himself-- his contribution was that important. While the then Pope appeased and smuggled out Nazis.

"Goodness" is not always-if at all- just a religious virtue.

[freeztar]

I have a suggestion.

 

Why not compose a list of the comparative benefits of religion, versus the detriments?

At first, it would need to be a brainstorming event in which the list is populated. Afterwards, weights can be given and argued. Hopefully, much of the weighing occurs as a direct result of objective data. We can then come closer to scientifically quantifying the data necessary to answer the thread's initial question.

 

Anyone game?

[RevOfAllRevs]

Contribution? Why would any atheist want to "contribute" in the name of atheism?

 

Indeed, but that's not the point. I was demonstrating as far as groups go the religious far more good than many other opposing (that oppose religion) other groups.

 

You could, of course, make the case that 90% of modern day technology was done by atheists in the name of... (oh **** - there is no deity to honor...)... but that won't work for you. Atheists do what they do because they like what they do. They do art, science, technology etc. for its own sake. Beat that, bible boy. No, sorry - that was just rude.

 

No it wouldn't work for me because I am not talking about individual atheists. I could tick off hundreds of accomplishments of religious folk especially with three quarters of the worlds population being religious. Again the entire point is that taken in full religious people and groups enrich society far more than they harm it.

 

It's silly, of course, to expect atheists to build cathedrals. "Wonderful works of art" they do, daily, by the thousands. For years. I can start enumerating them, but I'm sure you're well aware of it, so I won't bother. Assuming only a theist can produce works of art merely displays your ignorance of art. Really.

 

Again you miss the point as usual.

 

So you're single-handedly saying that all Bhuddists, Jews, Muslims, Seventh day Adventists, Scientologists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baalists, Shintoists, believers in Jupiter, Zeus, Neptune, etc. are wrong? Like InfiniteNow said - you're already an atheist regarding 99% of all proposed gods. The only difference between you and us ungodly folk, is that we merely go that final 1% further.

 

Again you miss my point for the hundredth time. Atheists have done very little compared to religious groups for the good of mankind get used to that fact. However this isn't about what the atheist haven't done but what the religious people and groups have done, which are immense.

 

Yes, actually, I am. Or "at a loss for words" might work better.

 

Indeed.The fact remains that religion has accomplished more for the good of man than the determinant of man and society that was the threads question and that's my answer. You can live in your fantasy world where the big bad wolf of religion lives but its just that...fantasy.

 

; {>

 

BTW looking back over the replies you have only addressed a fraction of my rebuttals, I will list them in another reply and hope that you can defend your views.

[Michaelangelica]

I have a suggestion.

 

Why not compose a list of the comparative benefits of religion, versus the detriments?

At first, it would need to be a brainstorming event in which the list is populated. Afterwards, weights can be given and argued. Hopefully, much of the weighing occurs as a direct result of objective data. We can then come closer to scientifically quantifying the data necessary to answer the thread's initial question.

 

Anyone game?

OK that's one way of going. Like most good ideas ones a beauracracy gets hold of them they tend to archive the exact opposite of what was intended EG:-

Tax Department= creates tax avoidance industry,

environment departments= licences polluters.

Government agencies that are "Here to help you" ,

etc.

Churches/Synagogues/Mosques= bigots, intolerance, bombs and rockets.

Celibacy= sexual deviance

+1. Encourages a sense of community and belonging.

- 1. Encourages "in and out" group behaviour ie prejudice, intolerance, fights, wars.

[RevOfAllRevs]

...you ask as you type on a computer invented by an atheist.

 

~modest

 

I am not saying that individual atheists haven't invented anything etc, but rather demonstrating that religious groups have accomplished many great and wondrous things to help and enrich society compared to groups that demean region.

 

; {>

[RevOfAllRevs]

OK that's one way of going. Like most good ideas ones a beauracracy gets hold of them they tend to archive the exact opposite of what was intended EG:-

Tax Department= creates tax avoidance industry,

environment departments= licences polluters.

Government agencies that are "Here to help you" ,

etc.

Churches/Synagogues/Mosques= bigots, intolerance, bombs and rockets.

Celibacy= sexual deviance

+1. Encourages a sense of community and belonging.

- 1. Encourages "in and out" group behaviour ie prejudice, intolerance, fights, wars.

 

The parameters are too subjective. For example religious beliefs are not the only group that has rabid bigots, or pedophiles or .... Good idea though.

 

; {>

[RevOfAllRevs]

No evidence needed there. It is a known fact. Actually those that assert otherwise must provide evidence.

 

Well, that's a cop out.! In my experience evidence is the last thing the Religious zelot wants to take on board. Many Yanks see things from a Yank perspective where mindless fundamentalism is on a par with Saudi Arabia. This alienates may scientists; but even here "One on three believe in God".->>>>>>>>>>>>>BREVITY SNIP<<<<<<<<<

I will come back to this post later when hypography is working properly at the moment no style buttons work

"Non Angli, sed Angeli"

 

I think your known fact no fact at all. That said, (and on another subject) The only reason most atheists place the burden of proof on the theist is because they have no logical evidence to support their paradigm comparable to say the cosmological argument for the existence of God.

 

; {>

[RevOfAllRevs]

A gay one, who committed suicide, possibly because of church homophobia. He also probably won WW2 by himself-- his contribution was that important. While the then Pope appeased and smuggled out Nazis.

"Goodness" is not always-if at all- just a religious virtue.

 

I have always held that atheists are just as moral as theists, or other folk, however the temptation to use man as their only moral standard makes them more prone to start down a slippery slope of secular humanism/neo positivism and immorality (as determined by a religious moral standard).

 

This opens a can of worms as to what is moral and what isn't. A society guided by neo positivism instead of absolute moral standards can declare even murder moral because man is the highest moral standard in a society ruled by secular humanism and neo positivism.

 

; {>

[freeztar]

Atheists have done very little compared to religious groups for the good of mankind get used to that fact.

 

I didn't realize that was a fact. Care to support that?

 

The site rules state that you must support your ideas with relevant links (info). Failure to do so will result in an infraction.

 

So, please, support your claims or do not make them.

[freeztar]

 

I think your known fact no fact at all. That said, (and on another subject) The only reason most atheists place the burden of proof on the theist is because they have no logical evidence to support their paradigm comparable to say the cosmological argument for the existence of God.

 

; {>

 

First, be careful with that paint brush, it looks a little thick. ;)

 

Second, what does Cosmology have to do with God?

 

Thirdly, what do you find harmful to society based on religion today? I'm sincerely asking and hope that your answers will inform the debate in a partisan manner.

[RevOfAllRevs]

I didn't realize that was a fact. Care to support that?

 

The site rules state that you must support your ideas with relevant links (info). Failure to do so will result in an infraction.

 

So, please, support your claims or do not make them.

 

I have already supported my claims in my posts. If you think I am incorrect well I am waiting.

 

; }>

 

"You Christians brought this on yourselves," Murray wrote, according to KUSA-TV in Denver. "Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world."

 

Matthew Murray, the gunman who is believed to have shot and killed four people in Colorado, appeared to have acted out of revenge against Christians, police officials indicated.

 

Hmmm....

 

; {>