The brain and consciousness

[HydrogenBond]

I am going to start a thread. I am going to keep it very general with common sense as my guide. If you look at the brain as a whole, the most highly wired aspects of the brain are in the center of the brain. The cerebral is more set up for differentiated tasks with output from any of these tasks eventually connecting to the integrated center brain. It makes logical sense that the most wired part of the brain would be analogous to the core CPU of the brain.

 

The conscious mind or the ego is more of a peripheral device. The ego is a relatively new invention of the brain. The sense of self awareness apart from instinct may only be 10,000 years old. This self awareness allows the ego to separate, to some extent, from the natural instincts of the core CPU. When we sleep, the ego projection is dimmed to low power, yet the core CPU is still at work taking care of the needs of the body.

 

A good way to see the proper relationship between the conscious and the unconscious is to consider something like walking. The ego only has to think the command line "walk" and the core CPU does all the data crunching. One does not have to consciously will each muscle to work and coordinate at the correct time. An easy self experiment that will show the hierarchy requires studying the anatomy of walking and then willfully move each distinct muscle to make walking come out smooth. The odds are even with practice it may take 5 times as long and still look very awkward. The unconscious supports makes it easy, yet the ego often accepts the credit.

 

The ego is sort of analogous to a PC-terminal with access to the core CPU of a mainframe. The mainframe takes over data intensive calculations, so the PC-terminal has more computer power to do other things. But each of these other things, like eating, chewing and digesting is distributed back to the mainframe. Once the actions are in motion, one does not really have to think, but can free PC time to focus on reading the paper. The mainframe does the data crunching right down to moving the eyes.

 

The ego PC-terminal has gotten stronger and can process data independently. But there are certain limits, since the still core sees all that is going on but virtue of its centrally integrated wiring. The core sees any input-output, always trying to offer support if this assists the ego's thought command lines. It might pop up a new idea to help out.

 

Here is a scenario; what would happen is the ego had full control over the core CPU. One could adjust the heart rate, weight set point, the rate of metabolism, or pump enough adrenaline to be able to lift a car. In other words, the ego hacks into the mainframe and take over the processing capability changing the default settings that came with it. One is now in the integrated core instead of a differential surface projection, now using the full mainframe power as though the ego-PC has become a mainframe.

 

This sounds a little far fetched but it was how the ego began. The earliest humanoids, before self awareness, were advanced animals who could trigger the wilder and stronger instincts associated with wild animals. Before the ego stabilized as a secondary center out of the core, the core CPU used other projections as a prosthesis for what would become the shell of the ego. For example, the primitive may begin to dance, not by will, but due to what they saw as the influence of a god. The CPU was projecting a shell of command lines and doing the data crunching to help the ego-prototype. A good analogy is a mother playing patty-cake with her baby. She moves the babies arms until he gets its. After a few sessions, the ancient can now dance but not as well as when the core-projection was active. The same with the little baby playing patty-cake, alone. But it was a start.

 

The modern ego has evolved to where the projection prosthesis of the core CPU is less needed. But there are still some that are active. The most common is connected to falling in love. The ego is not really in control when they are in uncontrollable love. The ego is not even seeing reality but an projection illusion, which helps them get past silly differences, i.e., anything the other does is so special, yah right. The CPU projection of love helps us play love patty-cake until it sticks. If one has even been in love one can get a feeling for the extra personality dynamics that a core prosthesis projection can induce. When this projection stops many think they are out of love, since the ego can't generate it, unless the core is there willing to offer then the unconscious support. These projections are rather interesting and reveal another aspect of core CPU and therefore human capability.

[HydrogenBond]

I brought up the difference between the conscious and unconscious mind to show how the unconscious is the real power of the brain. Machines, like computer can do anything the ego can do and better. These reach their limit when we start to deal with unconscious capability. For example, creativity is not a consciously deduced thing, but is processed unconsciously and is still beyond the capability of computers.

 

The question is, what is the future of the conscious mind? One would assume its capability will increase. Logic would suggest it will gradually develop better connectivity so it can take more and more advantage of the mainframe's capability and thereby gain more power. One way to explain this progression is to start at the most integrated area of the brain. From there the connectivity becomes more distributed. The conscious mind would need to create connectivity to the lowest level distribution centers that are pre-conscious, still many layers removed from the central CPU. These areas are more dense and should offer stronger thought command lines.

 

This interface area is where the human mind drifted, until science appeared and gave the conscious mind more rational independence. Rather than live in and out of mystical fairy tales, the interface was superseded for conscious autonomy. Paradoxically, the interface of the past is still the interface of the present, although modernization has had an impact on its dynamic content. It still uses a type of data processing with closer CPU connectivity.

 

When we sleep and dream the conscious mind gets powered down to a fraction of its awaken capability. One can see the dream, but has little will power with respect to the dream. The processing balance is shifted more toward the unconscious mind and the core CPU. When we are awake and conscious the higher power level makes us less conscious of dreams at the interface. One is not suppose to dwell there, since it is retro. But in terms of connectivity, this interface is still one step closer to the CPU. But it uses a different language which can make closer appear farther. An analogy is a PC -terminal that uses Windows to interface the mainframe. To get closer to the mainframe one needs to go retro using old fashion command lines. The core CPU is much older than the conscious mind and it also uses retro.

[InfiniteNow]

Why is this thread which is chock full of speculations and lack of citation or support being allowed to live in the Medical Science forum?

 

 

 

EDIT: Thank you to the Hypography staff for moving this thread to "Alternative Theories," although, I don't see the "theory," just the "hypothesis." :hihi:

[HydrogenBond]

I am sorry if this is too advanced. I tried to be a simple as possible. I also tried to use logic instead of "blind" testing. That sounds too primitive. I will try to make it even easier by looking at a baby. The new born baby doesn't have conscious awareness at birth. The conscious mind is not powered up. Even without this initial power-up, the baby is still controlled by unconscious instinct that allows it to get the parent's attention for its needs.

 

The milestones of child behavior are fairly well defined. What this implies is they are quite uniform making it less a function of differential consciousness and more a function of some generic output from the unconscious mind. In other words, the ego and consciousness make us unique, not clones. There are certain shell software that is molding the little ego that are considered part of normal development. The child is also being molded from the outside, which is what often causes most of the problems. It is sort of a lower level of brain power trying to decide what the higher brain power should do.

[jedaisoul]

The ego is a relatively new invention of the brain. The sense of self awareness apart from instinct may only be 10,000 years old...

 

...but it was how the ego began. The earliest humanoids, before self awareness, were advanced animals who could trigger the wilder and stronger instincts associated with wild animals.

 

On what scientific evidence are these claims based? Who says the higher animals are not as self aware as humans? I doubt this belongs in the Physical Science section at all. How about the Humanities?

[HydrogenBond]

One can not get into an animal's head to know if an animal is self aware. Their awareness comes from their unconscious mind. What we see as animal self awareness is mostly human projection. One uses their imagination to pretend this is so. I would like to see the scientific data that went inside an animal's head and definitively proved that animals are self aware.

[jedaisoul]

One can not get into an animal's head to know if an animal is self aware. Their awareness comes from their unconscious mind. What we see as animal self awareness is mostly human projection. One uses their imagination to pretend this is so. I would like to see the scientific data that went inside an animal's head and definitively proved that animals are self aware.

How can you say:

A "One can not get into an animal's head to know if an animal is self aware".

B "Their awareness comes from their unconscious mind".

C "What we see as animal self awareness is mostly human projection".

 

If A is true then you have no basis for your assertion B. C may be true, but again, how do you know this to be true? Basically, what you are saying is simply opinion. You are entitled to your opinion on this matter, but my point was, this discussion does not belong in the Physical Sciences - Alternative Theories section. It is not about physical science, and it's not a scientific theory, it's opinion.

 

As I understand it, the purpose of setting up the Alternative Theories section of the Physical Sciences forum was to allow somewhere for alternative theories, so that the bulk of the Physical Science forum could be devoted to mainstream science. There is already a dumping ground for un-scientific speculation, the "Strange Claims" section in the Special forum. Being generous, this thread might instead belong in the Philosophy and Humanities section of the Humanities forum. I don't mind. But if this section is going to be used as a dumping ground, then it will not attract the altenative theories it is intended for.

[Thunderbird]

Fascinating, Hydro

In studying the mind however I do not model it after a computer as much as you, but there are major similarities.

 

This idea of an ancient core CPU to me represents, at its deepest level the unquantifiable.

Something that is connected to our highest selves. The instinctual part that knows without thinking. I call it spirit.

 

The creative center of all we are.

The following story expresses to me this potentiality within us, and hints at the fact it was discovered long ago by the ancients.

 

 

 

The hypothesis in question is '...that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules."

Francis Crick

-------------------------------------

 

I say no!------------

 

 

The most profound story I’ve ever read comes one from one of Carlos Castaneda’s books, I can’t recall which one, but it was like many of his “tales of eternity” they always hint at more than they actually say .

 

This one starts with the old shaman Don Juan and his apprentice the anthropology student Carlos observing some desert creatures as they scurried about in the desert chaparral.

 

Don Juan commented that a man could survive in the dessert by hunting those animals, But first you would need to study them and know their habits.

He explain how they followed a pattern that could be mapped as a circle around a burrow. Once these feeding cycles are learned snares could be set and escape routes could be routed, so the animals own cyclical behavior became its venerability.

But he warned his apprentice, as you follow these behaviors and set your snares every day in the same way, you also make yourself venerable because you too are being observed.

He said there were predators even more attuned to theses circular patterns of the dessert, so some day something could be waiting for you along one of your well worn paths.

 

He went on to say that there existed in nature an ultimate balance between awareness of these cyclical movements in the world and a spontaneity of action in ones self, an unpredictability that wells up from the spirit.

Once this balance is achieved the hunter becomes a “magical warrior.”

“A magical warrior can never be trapped” don Juan said or “be caught without an escape route,” because he can never be reduced to behaviors .

 

This “warrior’s path” are no longer connected to cycles of the world, but of the spirit, thus he can always “see” what is coming without being seen himself.

 

Also, he said there existed in the world animals “magical creatures.” that have achieved this balance.

 

Don Juan recounted that he himself had achieved this state as a young man and became a magical warrior, and seemed to always know instinctively what to do in any situation, until one day he was hunting on a heavily forested ridge top. He remembered hearing a strange sound that sent shivers though his body.

 

He knew instinctively that he was to about to have an encounter with a magical creature, and for the first time since he had reached this state he had no clue what to do.

 

So he did the most illogical thing. He stood on his head and began to cry, after some time he felt something breathing in his ear, he fell over in a sitting position and looked up at the most beautiful deer that he had ever seen, and then it spoke “ Why are you crying ?” the deer inquired “ Because I'm sad ” Don Juan heard himself reply, then he remembered the deer lowered his head and said very clearly “ Don’t be sad ” and ambled away.

 

After listening to Don Juan’s story, Carlos, being an anthropologist and a man of logic and science, replied that the story was ridicules “deer’s do not talk !” he said “I know I know” the old shaman replied “It was the damnedest thing.”

[HydrogenBond]

The argument whether animals have self awareness or not, leads to an interesting compromise. If they have consciousness, but without human self awareness, then the animal's unconscious mind has self awareness.

 

This addresses both points of view at the same time. It is possible to have self awareness without a conscious mind. Or an animal, without will power apart from natural instinct, can still appear to have conscious awareness.

 

With humans our will allows us to go one way, while instinct can go another. With animals they can only go one way. A dog can be told, not to eat just yet, but they are pack animals used to a pecking order, with humans acting as the lead animal. They are not in violation of instinct, yet can apppear very conscious of the command.

 

The reason I bring this up, if anyone has gone to therapy or has an interest in the unconscious mind, the counter position of the unconscous mind is sort of psych 101. There would be no basis to use dream analysis if this unconscious phenomena didn't reveal useful content. As one goes deeper there are also dynamic software, which is more observable in pathological cases. Someone with a genuine split personality is not fabricating this, but has periods where unconscious shell software surrounds the ego, for different conscious looks. I am not trying to scare people, but to point out its utility.

 

Picture this scenario. Say one could will a split personality so the self software that is playing, is the proper one for the occation. It is not pathological, but uses the same type of patholgical schema to power up the ego. A good actor, after studying a role, can do this and may even win an Oscar if the shell software is compelling.

[ughaibu]

If an animal reacts differently to it's environment, according to whether it's asleep or awake, it seems that the animal is conscious when awake. Is there an alternative explanation?

[HydrogenBond]

Part of the misunderstanding is connected to existing data collection. Science tends to collect data from the outside. But it doesn't collect the most useful data which is from the inside. Let me give an analogy. Say someone had a toothache. We can listen to them complain, we can even wire them up to machines or take blood samples. But this data would be no substitute for having the direct inner experience of a toothache. If one never had a toothache, they may never reach a meeting of the minds in terms of the reality of the situation. The best they can do is empathize and use their imagination to fill in the blanks. The separation from inner reality using only external data and the imagination, instead of inner experience, is the basis for why cognitive science is insecure.

 

Let me give another analogy. Dreams are real enough since most people have had this experience. If you tried to explain what a dream was to someone who never had one, one can not put a dream in a beaker and show them. As far as they are concerned since they can't experience it with their sensory systems it does not exist to them. Even if they try to empathize, they will never fully understand what it is. A direct experience of a dream will give them the key data needed to understand reality.

 

I am going to continue the analysis. A baby has little power going to the ego and the conscious mind. As it develops, the power level gradually increases until it reaches higher levels at full maturity. If the person was mature but the conscious power level dropped, they would be able to process more than the core output to consciousness. Such a person would be low energy since they need to tone down to stay at par with the energy trickle.

 

If we power up to where the ego processing equals the energy that is being supplied, the person is more forfilled. If the power level going to the ego begins to exceed what the ego can process, there is a push forward. Sort of a need to develop new outlets to be able to deal with the extra energy. If the flow way exceeds the ego's capacity, then it is out of control.

 

If you look at how many children are developing attention disorders this would almost seem to indicate an evolutionary push toward more power for the ego, at an earlier age. The problem is culture can't provide enough outlets to help the child deal with the power up. Instead we give them drugs to lower the energy output so it is more in line with cultural capacity.

[HydrogenBond]

I am going to do a practical application of this analysis. In particular, I would like to address the school shooting that occurred this weekend. The young man, who was the shooter, was a good student and according to his girlfriend showed little outward signs of behavior change. What this implies is his core energy output had increased to his conscious mind. There was enough energy to sustain his normal way of life, plus additional that needed some type of output.

 

It is likely this extra energy initially appeared as a fantasy, to dissipate the extra energy. It may not have been compatible with his conscious attitude and was kept inside. But with extra energy, the outward person did not appear to be much different. The climax of this energy surplus resulted in the shootings. This was due to renegade software that held the promise of using up the energy. In other words, the software felt right because it was satisfying the energy requirement, but was renegade in the sense that the logical outcome would lead to destruction.

 

Renegade software sounds strange but it is what religious refer to as evil spirits that could take over the ego. A litmus test would be to measure the core energy input to the ego to see if there is too much for the person to handle, making them vulnerable to renegade software. The lack of good internal data makes the obvious take a back seat to exterior data, which just can't see it coming until after the fact.

[Brinnie]

excellent thread.

 

i have been trying to unify the mind to a computer for quite some time now.