Morality of Water Torture

[coberst]

Morality of Water Torture

 

The present question regarding the nature and morality of torture offers us an excellent opportunity to advance the level of sophistication of our understanding of morality. We learn best when we are questioning a matter that is meaningful to us.

 

I was eleven years old when Germany and Japan surrendered and WWII was finally over. One searing memory of this war were the stories I read and the movies I watched during and after the war regarding the torture and general brutality that the German Gestapo inflicted upon the people they conquered. I do not know why this left such a strong impression on me but it certainly did.

 

Coincidentally I have been studying “Moral Imagination” by Mark Johnson. This is the same Johnson who coauthored the book “Philosophy in the Flesh” with George Lakoff. I have decided to apply the theories Johnson presents in his book as a means to illuminate this matter regarding the morality of water torture used by my country in our struggle with Islamic extremists.

 

Moral understanding is like any other kind of experience; when we examine a domain of experience that relates to human relationships we must focus our attention on human understanding it self. If we do so we discover that human understanding is fundamentally imaginative in character.

 

“Many of our most basic concepts have considerable internal structure that cannot be accounted for by the classical theory of concepts as defined by necessary and sufficient features…The primary forms of moral imagination are concepts with prototype structure, semantic frames, conceptual metaphors, and narratives.”

 

To become morally insightful we must become knowledgeable of these imaginative structures. First, we must give up our illusions about absolute moral codes and also our radical moral subjectivism. Second we must refine our “perception of character traits and situations and of developing empathetic imagination to take up the part of others.”

 

Empathy is a character trait that can be cultivated by habit and will. Sympathy is somewhat of an automatic response.

 

When we see a mother weeping over the death of her child caused by a suicide bomber we feel immediate sympathy. Often we will come to tears. But we do not feel anything like that for the mother who may be weeping over the death of her child who was the bomber.

 

To understand the bomber we must use empathy. We attempt through imagination and reason to create a situation that will allow us to understand why this was done. This is a rational means to understand someone who acts different than we would.

 

“Empathy is the idea that the vital properties which we experience in or attribute to any person or object outside ourselves are the projections of our own feelings and thoughts.”

 

The subject viewing an object of art experiences emotional attitudes leading to feelings that are attributes of qualities in the art object thus aesthetic pleasure may be considered as “objectified self-enjoyment in which the subject and object are fused.”

 

The social sciences adopt a similar concept called ‘empathic understanding’, which refers to the deliberate attempt to identify with another person and accounting for that persons actions by “our own immediate experience of our motivations and attitudes in similar circumstances as we remember or imagine them”. This idea refers to a personal resonance between two people.

 

“What is crucial is that our moral reasoning can be constrained by the metaphoric and other imaginative structures shared within our culture and moral tradition, yet it can also be creative in transforming our moral understanding, our identity, and the course of our lives. Without this kind of imaginative reasoning we would lead dreadfully impoverished lives. We would be reduced to repeating habitual actions, driven by forces and contingencies beyond our control.”

 

Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?

[REASON]

Can you imagine an individual who is a hard headed realist and very accomplished at empathy sanctioning the use of water torture on anyone, friend or enemy?

 

I, for one, cannot. In my world, there is absolutely no justification for such acts.

 

While empathy does play a role in why I am disgusted by the torture of someone, my focus tends to be on the anger I'm feeling toward the torturer. I don't believe that rational people perpetrate these acts on their captives because they are trying to gather pertinent information to save lives. That's the excuse. Considering that it's well known that information garnered through torture is unreliable, torture than becomes a sadistic act that is satisfying some sick need to display power, control, or revenge. It may very well be about getting someone to admit to something that they didn't actually do. It's not about truth.

 

Growing up I was led to believe that bad guys such as tyrannical dictators, Nazis, or the KGB were the ones who tortured people. And that because we stood for liberty and justice, we were above that sort of behavior. It appears I was misled. Or maybe what I've actually come to realize is that there are bad guys in this world that find their way into power, but it's foolish of me to think that those people can only be found in some foriegn government. You see, that's where the blinders are.

 

The fact is, there is no morality in water torture or any toture for that matter, only perceived moral justifications and excuses for bad, illegal behavior. It is nothing but detrimental to our honor, integrity, and moral standing in the world.

 

It makes us the bad guys.

[coberst]

It appears to me that few people have ever been taught anything about empathy. Empathy is an effort of the imagination to walk in the shoes of another. I suspect that anyone who understand the meaning of empathy and has been able to walk in the shoes of another could not torture that individual.

 

Take anyone who you know well and truly despise and imagine torturing that individual. I do not think any normal person could do such a thing.

 

I think that one of the reasons that we humans are on the path to self destruction is partially due to the fact that our culture has never embraced the understanding of empathy.

[InfiniteNow]

Beware the non-sequitur, coberst. I really wouldn't chalk it up to "not being taught empathy," but instead how easily the primordial and hormonally enforced feelings of rage and need for dominance overwhelm it.

[coberst]

Beware the non-sequitur, coberst. I really wouldn't chalk it up to "not being taught empathy," but instead how easily the primordial and hormonally enforced feelings of rage and need for dominance overwhelm it.

 

I think that it may be the case; humans tend to teach hate. I am convinced that neither the churches nor the schools teach empathy. Empathy doen't have a chance.

 

I was raised Catholic and I never heard of the word until I was an adult.

 

I had never thought about this before but I have discovered that very few people display any knowledge of empathy.

[InfiniteNow]

Hi Coberst,

 

I watched a really amazing program on NOVA tonight which I think completely defeats your premise that empathy is something taught. I have a strong feeling that you will love this program, and I hope you have about 50 minutes to watch it (it will be available for free in it's entirety beginning on Wednesday, February 20... as of this post, that's tomorrow).

 

They showed, among many other fascinating subjects and topics, that empathy appears to be genetic, as well as learning and teaching itself. In other words, nurture won't ever really happen for some specific natures.

 

Either way, if you have the opportunity, you will love the program at the following:

 

NOVA | Ape Genius | Watch the Program | PBS

[palmtreepathos]

nice info for children who might not see it at home to learn this vital trait in the schools....

 

Roots of Empathy -- Welcome

 

Roots of Empathy Video Material

[REASON]

nice info for children who might not see it at home to learn this vital trait in the schools....

 

Roots of Empathy -- Welcome

 

Roots of Empathy Video Material

 

What an excellent program, palmtree. :) Thanks for pointing it out.

 

I hope it's available in the United States, and not just another thing benefitting Canadians alone.

 

I'm sure though in the States, some staunch "traditional" folks would probably raise a stink about their kid being taught a bunch of liberal non-sense. :)

 

We've got a lot of work to do.

 

 

 

INow, this is an example of the kind of teaching and general effort that I was trying to convey was necessary to work toward World Peace in the Do You Want World Peace thread, if you recall. Make sure you watch the video in the second link above.

 

I'll watch your video you posted above as soon as I get the chance. I'm curious if it will suggest that even this type of educational program just won't develop a sense of empathy in certain people. I predict it will.

[coberst]

Hi Coberst,

 

I watched a really amazing program on NOVA tonight which I think completely defeats your premise that empathy is something taught. I have a strong feeling that you will love this program, and I hope you have about 50 minutes to watch it (it will be available for free in it's entirety beginning on Wednesday, February 20... as of this post, that's tomorrow).

 

They showed, among many other fascinating subjects and topics, that empathy appears to be genetic, as well as learning and teaching itself. In other words, nurture won't ever really happen for some specific natures.

 

Either way, if you have the opportunity, you will love the program at the following:

 

NOVA | Ape Genius | Watch the Program | PBS

 

Thanks for that heads-up. I shall watch it. Obviously if they disagree with me I shall write them an email and set them straight and they will probably do a sequal.

[coberst]

Religion speaks constantly about love. What actions does one take in order to love someone? I claim that empathy is a necessary step toward loving someone. Religion has a problem with intellection; religion wants to focus on emotion. Reason is necessary for empathy; if so, it is necessary for love and thus religion fails when reason fails. Therein lay the paradox of religion.

[InfiniteNow]

Thanks for that heads-up. I shall watch it. Obviously if they disagree with me I shall write them an email and set them straight and they will probably do a sequal.

 

To be fair, the program was not specifically about empathy, but there were many rather large "chunks" that described it. Many of those "chunks" reminded me of your thread here.

 

It seemed to crystallize, in my mind anyway, just how much of this is genetic.

 

There was a scene where, in captivity, a bonobo had died, and the workers were trying to move it closer to the gate by pushing it along the ground using sticks from outside the cage. The other bonobos, mostly unrelated and from different tribes, risked their own lives to protect the dead animal. They fought against the humans who were trying to move it toward the gate with their sticks from outside the fence, and really it was really quite touching. I hope you enjoy the special. I know I did. :)

 

NOVA | Ape Genius | Watch the Program | PBS

 

 

INow, this is an example of the kind of teaching and general effort that I was trying to convey was necessary to work toward World Peace in the Do You Want World Peace thread, if you recall. Make sure you watch the video in the second link above.

I do recall, actually. I've queued up the video for when I'm done studying tonight after work. :)

 

Cheers. :)

[coberst]

To be fair, the program was not specifically about empathy, but there were many rather large "chunks" that described it. Many of those "chunks" reminded me of your thread here.

 

It seemed to crystallize, in my mind anyway, just how much of this is genetic.

 

There was a scene where, in captivity, a bonobo had died, and the workers were trying to move it closer to the gate by pushing it along the ground using sticks from outside the cage. The other bonobos, mostly unrelated and from different tribes, risked their own lives to protect the dead animal. They fought against the humans who were trying to move it toward the gate with their sticks from outside the fence, and really it was really quite touching. I hope you enjoy the special. I know I did. :)

 

NOVA | Ape Genius | Watch the Program | PBS

 

 

 

I do recall, actually. I've queued up the video for when I'm done studying tonight after work. :)

 

Cheers. :)

 

I think that it is important to distinguish between the words compassion, sympathy, and empathy.

 

Webster says empathy—the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it—the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experiencing of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner

 

Webster says sympathy—an affinity, association, or relationship between persons or things wherein whatever affects one similarly the other.

 

Webster says compassion--sympathetic consciousness of other's distress together with a desire to alleviate it.

 

What I have been writing about is empathy. Empathy is an act of will, imagination, and reason acting coherently together. I tend to doubt that animals, other than humans, have the ability to do empathy.

[C1ay]

The fact is, there is no morality in water torture or any toture for that matter, only perceived moral justifications and excuses for bad, illegal behavior. It is nothing but detrimental to our honor, integrity, and moral standing in the world.

 

It makes us the bad guys.

 

 

I tend to disagree to some extent. When torture is used simply to punish someone it is despicable. OTOH, if you have a known bad guy whom you know has the information to prevent the loss of more innocent lives those innocents deserve your effort to get that information, even if it means you must do something that repulses you. Remember, all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing and in some cases doing nothing can be just as immoral as the work of those that are evil.

[coberst]

I tend to disagree to some extent. When torture is used simply to punish someone it is despicable. OTOH, if you have a known bad guy whom you know has the information to prevent the loss of more innocent lives those innocents deserve your effort to get that information, even if it means you must do something that repulses you. Remember, all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing and in some cases doing nothing can be just as immoral as the work of those that are evil.

 

 

The logic of utility requires absolute knowledge and we do not have that ability.

[InfiniteNow]

I think that it is important to distinguish between the words compassion, sympathy, and empathy.

 

Please note that my example scene above was not intended to be an example of empathy, just a scene that touched me.

 

They do touch specifically on "the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it—the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experiencing of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner" during the program.

[C1ay]

The logic of utility requires absolute knowledge and we do not have that ability.

 

Untrue. For some we know and others we don't. I tend to favor an error on behalf of the individual for which we have doubt as to their knowledge of other events but there are those for which we have no doubt like Osama Bin Laden. If someone like him is caught we owe it to those that will become victims to extract everything we can from him. Torture, like anything else, has tremendous potential for unjust abuse but there are cases where it is appropriate.

[REASON]

I tend to disagree to some extent. When torture is used simply to punish someone it is despicable. OTOH, if you have a known bad guy whom you know has the information to prevent the loss of more innocent lives those innocents deserve your effort to get that information, even if it means you must do something that repulses you. Remember, all that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing and in some cases doing nothing can be just as immoral as the work of those that are evil.

 

There are quite a number of unknown variables to a situation as you describe.

 

1. How can anyone be so sure that it is known that a captive has the crutial information?

 

2. How can you be sure that any information provided is acurate?

 

3. How can you trust that this is the only situation where this type of morality will be applied once the power is granted?

 

4. What message does it send about our willingness to adhere to international law?

 

5. How often do the circumstances come together in such a fashion to warrant the use of torture in this manner?

 

6. Are we therefore willing to tolerate the torture of our citizens and service members if our enemies are able to claim that they had to do it to get information to stop an impending U.S. attack?

 

7. Would you still feel the same way if the authorities were convinced that YOU had such crutial information?

 

This so called moral dilemma was discussed fairly well in the Guantanamo: Shame on you United States thread. This excuse is the current stance of the Bush administration. You imply that the only choice is to torture or do nothing. I believe there are plenty of accepted, effective, and legal interogation methods used by law enforcement throughout the world that don't require resorting to cruel and inhuman treatment of detainees or captives.

 

I believe it is important that we hold on to the values of liberty and justice for all no matter what, and not give in to hyperbole as an excuse that lets those values erode, and allows us to become that which we swear to defend against.