Urantia Book: Complications and Contradictions

[modest]

Ok Cal.

 

Here's a bit more of it:

 

The blue men [prehistoric white] were a great people. They early invented the spear and subsequently worked out the rudiments of many of the arts of modern civilization. The blue man had the brain power of the red man [later to become native american] associated with the soul and sentiment of the yellow man [later to become asian]. The Adamic descendants preferred them to all of the later persisting colored races.

 

I guess it's just an implication but it does slant rather heavily. My main point would be, it does a whole lot of describing different races and what's good and bad about them. Add that to the eugenics theme and I see sinister implications all through the whole thing.

 

~modest

[Turtle]

God wants us to choose his way, not compel us to love him. We are out of the territory of science with this sort of discussion...perhaps this site would be better off without a Theology forum.

 

Many of us feel that way...

amen...

 

We started the theology forum by mutual agreement of members and staff during a spate of 'creationism is science' posting. Here is the guideline:

 

This is not a forum for preaching the word of God (regardless of which one you may subscribe to). It is a forum for rational discussion of religious thought, and varieties thereof. How does science and religion interact? How does religion impact society? What is the role of religion in education? Why are wars fought over religious ideas? These are examples of topics we hope to see here. ...

http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/4064-rules-theology-forum.html

 

In the case of The Urantia Book, science is misused as a prop for all manner of religious ideas, including but not limited to the idea of racial superiority. This is exactly the place to root out that abuse of science. :cup:

[Pyrotex]

I'm sorry, I don't understand anything you have said. I have no idea where you are coming from. Please translate, provide examples and explain why my expertise on the U book is viewed ominously by you or anyone else.

This is a common tactic of "trolls"--claiming that warnings or criticisms are not understood, and demanding voluminous documentation and proof of said warnings or criticisms.

 

Either you are insufficiently intelligent to understand the rules and our criticisms -- in which case, you are certainly not intelligent enough to understand Urantia, OR you ARE intelligent enough to understand Urantia -- in which case, our criticisms are clear to you and you are dissembling.

 

Be forewarned that we have seen every rhetorical trick in the book. We are under no obligation to "prove" to you that you are behaving like a troll. We only need convince ourselves after having given you every opportunity to make your case [assuming you have one].

 

Carry on, pilgrim.

[REASON]

I find it interesting how these basic colors are used to create racial ambiguity while in the midst of conveying racial prejudice.

 

It's like code. The informed reader is able to translate.

[modest]

I find it interesting how these basic colors are used to create racial ambiguity while in the midst of conveying racial prejudice.

 

It's like code. The informed reader is able to translate.

 

I agree. It's really quite odd. It's important to point out that these "races of color" are not modern races, but are the proposed original races that evolved a long time ago. After describing them it goes into detail about how they interacted. Who bred with who and who fought with who. They evolved until Adam and Eve showed up. Adam and Eve are like the master race. It's very strange, not like the biblical story at all. Their job was to sort out the races. Eliminate the degenerates of the races and add their own superior genetics to whoever was worthy by mating their children off. That was Adam and Eve's job - the reason they came to earth. They were here to run an eugenics program. I can't over-stress how weird it is reading it. It's like looking into some deranged fantasy.

 

At first glance it does not look like the history of the races agrees with accepted theory. For one - I don't see a common ancestry coming out of Africa. Certainly not in the right time frame. It would take some time for me to verify and make sure of that, but at first glance it looks wrong. It looks like it was written before modern fossil and genetic paleontology. Turtle would know better what kind of contradictions are there.

 

~modest

[Majeston]

Okay, folks, stand tight. There's a Moderator on deck. I will be monitoring all posts for the foreseeable future for violations of Hypography rules, and departures from nominal courtesy. I want you guys to get these points:

Welcome Pyro, I was hoping a moderator who would monitor "all" posts would show up. Nominal courtesy seems to be a rare commodity here.

I have personally never been in a discussion group that has 4; 5 or 10 moderators or administrators for every badgeless gunless poster . Additionally It's unusual that every badge toting participant is on the opposing team. It's a new experience for me. I can only surmise that my tenure is destined to be very rocky and very short.

 

1. You guys are playing in a "theology" sandbox. By its very nature, theology is primarily a rhetorical exercise, an exercise in word-games. The chief word game involved is either "my scripture is perfect" or "my scripture is better than your scripture". The only way to "win" is to be the last one standing.

Don't really see how that applies here unless the objective is to give warnings or negative reps or violations to only those who show support of the U P's. Then of course, "last man standing" automatically wins.

 

2. "Internal Consistency" is the booby prize of logic and reason. It is trivial to compose massive tomes of blathering idiocy that are internally consistent. Several versions of numerology & astrology, just to name two, are internally consistent.

 

Don't really see how this applies at all, unless you have already identified the U P's in your own opinion as "blathering idiocy", then, if so, I can only see your last man standing as self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

3. The inability or unwillingness to see a point proves nothing. Ignoring a point does NOT make it go away.

 

Pyro the Pernicious :) :) :)

[Majeston]

Please back up the claim that the present-day population of the US is more creative than that of southern India with links or references.

 

This claim conflicts with my personal, anecdotal experience with people from southern India. Though, as with people of other ethnicities and national origins, some southern Indians have struck me as mere clever bureaucrats, other have impressed me highly with their creativity, drive, and cultural richness.

 

From math and science literature, I’m acquainted with many Indians, many of them from the southern part of the country, who can be described as no less than creative geniuses, notably mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan and mathematical physicist Satyendra Nath Bose (Though Bose is from central, not southern, India). It’s not, IMHO, an exaggeration that math and science would not be what they are now if not for the work of just these two early 20th century men, both of whom had to overcome strong resistance from Europeans who believed that, despite their early academic accomplishments, their work should not be taken seriously because of their ethnicity. Please back up the claim that present-day races with links or references.

 

I’m aware of no sound scientific evidence that this is true. Moreover, recent detailed study of genetics on the molecular level has resulted in a consensus among molecular biologists that the term “race” is useful only as a social construct, and is not very useful or predictive in the classification of genes and traits.

 

CraigD,

 

I trust that Cal has answered the question sufficiently. If not, I can look further. There seems to be a paucity of free info on 19th and 20th century India statistics on the web, although I did find this partially available.

Southern India: Its History, People ... - Google Book Search

[Majeston]

I agree. It's really quite odd. It's important to point out that these "races of color" are not modern races, but are the proposed original races that evolved a long time ago. After describing them it goes into detail about how they interacted. Who bred with who and who fought with who. They evolved until Adam and Eve showed up. Adam and Eve are like the master race. It's very strange, not like the biblical story at all. Their job was to sort out the races. Eliminate the degenerates of the races and add their own superior genetics to whoever was worthy by mating their children off. That was Adam and Eve's job - the reason they came to earth. They were here to run an eugenics program. I can't over-stress how weird it is reading it. It's like looking into some deranged fantasy.

 

No sir, I think you've got that wrong. Genetic uplift was only one of their jobs.

 

At first glance it does not look like the history of the races agrees with accepted theory. For one - I don't see a common ancestry coming out of Africa. Certainly not in the right time frame. It would take some time for me to verify and make sure of that, but at first glance it looks wrong. It looks like it was written before modern fossil and genetic paleontology. Turtle would know better what kind of contradictions are there.

 

~modest

 

"accepted theory"- now that's a whole big can of worms isn't it?

"out of Africa"- another "accepted theory" huh? Actually it was Afghanistan IIRC.

[modest]

No sir, I think you've got that wrong. Genetic uplift was only one of their jobs.

 

After reading it my honest guess would be 90% of the description of what they did.

 

"accepted theory"- now that's a whole big can of worms isn't it?

"out of Africa"- another "accepted theory" huh? Actually it was Afghanistan IIRC.

 

Do you mean to say everyone on earth is related to an ancestor that lived in Afghanistan? If that is the case please provide a source.

 

~modest

[Majeston]

After reading it my honest guess would be 90% of the description of what they did.

 

we disagree, my guess would be 25% maybe 10%

 

 

Do you mean to say everyone on earth is related to an ancestor that lived in Afghanistan? If that is the case please provide a source.

 

~modest

 

I thought we were talking about what the U Papers say. IIRC so-called "science" says Africa. I believe the only source for Afghanistan might be the U papers.

[modest]

I believe the only source for Afghanistan might be the U papers.

 

I believe you might be right.

 

~modest

[Majeston]

so before you started screaming fire in a crowed movie theater and switched the discussion to some kind of nazi-witch hunt about eugenics, I thought we were discussing the Glaziou paper on science which you said you would critique.

[Majeston]

This seems to be quite interesting in relation to the U quote

 

The Riddle of the White `Mummies' Of Ancient China - OD Board

 

 

 

 

PAPER 79: ANDITE EXPANSION IN THE ORIENT

Audio Version Printer FriendlySynopsis

 

79:0.1 Asia is the homeland of the human race. It was on a southern peninsula of this continent that Andon and Fonta were born; in the highlands of what is now Afghanistan, their descendant Badonan founded a primitive center of culture that persisted for over one-half million years. Here at this eastern focus of the human race the Sangik peoples differentiated from the Andonic stock, and Asia was their first home, their first hunting ground, their first battlefield. Southwestern Asia witnessed the successive civilizations of Dalamatians, Nodites, Adamites, and Andites, and from these regions the potentials of modern civilization spread to the world.

079:1 THE ANDITES OF TURKESTAN

Audio Version

 

79:1.1 For over twenty-five thousand years, on down to nearly 2000 B.C., the heart of Eurasia was predominantly, though diminishingly, Andite. In the lowlands of Turkestan the Andites made the westward turning around the inland lakes into Europe, while from the highlands of this region they infiltrated eastward. Eastern Turkestan (Sinkiang) and, to a lesser extent, Tibet were the ancient gateways through which these peoples of Mesopotamia penetrated the mountains to the northern lands of the yellow men. The Andite infiltration of India proceeded from the Turkestan highlands into the Punjab and from the Iranian grazing lands through Baluchistan. These earlier migrations were in no sense conquests; they were, rather, the continual drifting of the Andite tribes into western India and China.

 

79:1.2 For almost fifteen thousand years centers of mixed Andite culture persisted in the basin of the Tarim River in Sinkiang and to the south in the highland regions of Tibet, where the Andites and Andonites had extensively mingled. The Tarim valley was the easternmost outpost of the true Andite culture. Here they built their settlements and entered into trade relations with the progressive Chinese to the east and with the Andonites to the north. In those days the Tarim region was a fertile land; the rainfall was plentiful. To the east the Gobi was an open grassland where the herders were gradually turning to agriculture. This civilization perished when the rain winds shifted to the southeast, but in its day it rivaled Mesopotamia itself.

[modest]

so before you started screaming fire in a crowed movie theater and switched the discussion to some kind of nazi-witch hunt about eugenics, I thought we were discussing the Glaziou paper on science which you said you would critique.

 

Yes, I did scream fire in a crowded theater--that’s not a bad analogy. But, understand: Your first claim I looked into was the Adam and Eve/genetics one and I was not prepared for what I found. I had no idea the Urantian theme had anything whatsoever to do with eugenics. So, yeah, it stopped me in my tracks. But, I did finish what I was doing and told you what I thought of that claim right before screaming fire.

 

As far as the Glasziou thing - First off, don’t post links to it outside the theology forum. There’s been a history here of people posting religious material all over the site. It’s one of the reasons the theology forum was put here in the first place. As a rule, don’t post anything Urantian related outside theology. Please understand, there's a history involved. Hopefully you see the necessity for such a rule.

 

I’ll try to look at Glasziou. But, honestly - It’s 196 pages long... ya know

 

~modest

[Majeston]

Yes, I did scream fire in a crowded theater--that’s not a bad analogy.

 

Thank You !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

But, understand: Your first claim I looked into was the Adam and Eve/genetics one and I was not prepared for what I found. I had no idea the Urantian theme had anything whatsoever to do with eugenics. So, yeah, it stopped me in my tracks.

 

You didn't understand what you found and started screaming fire about because you do not have the overview that understanding the entire text provides you with. Therefore you scream fire. Notice that I said understand, I did not say read. There are many people who have tried to understand this "revelation" for over 40 years and are quite familiar with every word; nuance and idea in it and they are still studying and trying to understand because it reaches heights and ideas that mankind has no reference point for and no personal experience in. Suffice it to say that the "races" have virtually nothing to do with the "revelation" being conveyed, and might I add that ideas of what is considered revelation just might be a bit different from what a billion year old being might consider the real gift to be. For example a bit of trivia that Mercury has a 3/1 ratio or was that 3/2.

 

But, I did finish what I was doing and told you what I thought of that claim right before screaming fire.

 

As far as the Glasziou thing - First off, don’t post links to it outside the theology forum. There’s been a history here of people posting religious material all over the site. It’s one of the reasons the theology forum was put here in the first place. As a rule, don’t post anything Urantian related outside theology. Please understand, there's a history involved. Hopefully you see the necessity for such a rule.

 

I’ll try to look at Glasziou. But, honestly - It’s 196 pages long... ya know

 

~modest

 

The Glaziou thing is a science paper by a qualified physicist. It's not really all that long, there are some pictures IIRC

:)

[modest]

The Glaziou thing is a science paper by a qualified physicist.

 

Lucky you, you're in the theology forum of a science site :)

 

~modest

[Majeston]

Lucky you, you're in the theology forum of a science site :)

 

~modest

 

No, actually it might be lucky you, but that all depends on you.