Urantia Book: Complications and Contradictions

[Turtle]

Is there any way to determine if the Urantia Papers have remained in their original text over the years?

 

How do we know they haven't been revised or had information added at some point?

 

Good question! One I have considered, but haven't acted on. :D For one thing, I gave my copy away, and for another thing, making such a comparison is in my view not simply a doubling of the effort involved in reading just a single copy, but an exponentially larger task. Finding a few 'corrections' is all it would take though. :hihi:

 

Part of the big drive in the last decade or so by the Urantia Foundation is the translation of the book into other languages. I imagine differences found in these cases might be argued away by nuanced contentions of translation. :shrug:

 

I think we have plenty o' contradictions and, per se, conplications with our online version as we have it. Pick some passage at random from the index, and have a go at it. The Urantia s I think it's a far better game than poker.

 

PS The Urantia Foundation has placed, or attempted to place, a book in every single library at their own expense. Some libraries keep it in the reference section. ;)

[Majeston]

no complications

 

The Black Stone, or the Kaaba stone, is set on the outside of one corner of the Kaaba is kissed by all pilgrims who can gain access to it. It is a dark, red brown, and now encased in a massive silver band. It is presumed to be of pre-Islamic origin, possibly meteoric. Myths claim that it fell from heaven

kaba stone

 

Turtle you obviously missed this part..

 

Urantia

95:7.4 Despite the fact that the great Levantine monotheisms failed to take root in Arabia, this desert land was capable of producing a faith which, though less demanding in its social requirements, was nonetheless monotheistic.

 

95:7.5 There was only one factor of a tribal, racial, or national nature about the primitive and unorganized beliefs of the desert, and that was the peculiar and general respect which almost all Arabian tribes were willing to pay to a certain black stone fetish in a certain temple at Mecca. This point of common contact and reverence subsequently led to the establishment of the Islamic religion. What Yahweh, the volcano spirit, was to the Jewish Semites, the Kaaba stone became to their Arabic cousins.

 

95:7.6 The strength of Islam has been its clear-cut and well-defined presentation of Allah as the one and only Deity; its weakness, the association of military force with its promulgation, together with its degradation of woman. But it has steadfastly held to its presentation of the One Universal Deity of all, " who knows the invisible and the visible. He is the merciful and the compassionate. " " Truly God is plenteous in goodness to all men. " " And when I am sick, it is he who heals me. " " For whenever as many as three speak together, God is present as a fourth, " for is he not " the first and the last, also the seen and the hidden? "

 

95:7.7 [Presented by a Melchizedek of Nebadon. ]

 

 

That last paragraph, by the way, is what many might classify as "Revelation"

[Turtle]

no complications

 

 

kaba stone

 

Turtle you obviously missed this part..

95:7.4 Despite the fact that the great Levantine monotheisms failed to take root in Arabia, this desert land was capable of producing a faith which, though less demanding in its social requirements, was nonetheless monotheistic.

95:7.5 There was only one factor of a tribal, racial, or national nature about the primitive and unorganized beliefs of the desert, and that was the peculiar and general respect which almost all Arabian tribes were willing to pay to a certain black stone fetish in a certain temple at Mecca. This point of common contact and reverence subsequently led to the establishment of the Islamic religion. What Yahweh, the volcano spirit, was to the Jewish Semites, the Kaaba stone became to their Arabic cousins.

 

Acknowledged on the later ambiguous possible interchangeable dual-use of terms regarding the rock and the building housing it. On general writing style points, I give it a hazy ambiguous 4. I expect more of angels and as much of men & ladies. I have boldened a phrase from your addition which I find typical of an underhanded shot from the Christian slant inherent in the book. Death by a thousand cuts as it were.

 

for is he not " the first and the last, also the seen and the hidden?

That last paragraph, by the way, is what many might classify as "Revelation"

 

Strikes me more as a riddle with as many answers as one cares to offer. What do you think it reveals?

 

95:7.5 There was only one factor of a tribal, racial, or national nature about the primitive and unorganized beliefs of the desert, and that was the peculiar and general respect which almost all Arabian tribes were willing to pay to a certain black stone fetish in a certain temple at Mecca.

First the writer says 'There was only one...', then contradicts that by saying 'almost all...'. Terrible sloppy indecision for an angel; cagey bamboozle for humans.

 

With all the supposed authority of the author Meltcheesedit, and the time at hand for the human editors, what excuse is there in this passage to suddenly get vaugue on details known? Why now say 'certain black stone fetish' when it was earlier named as the Kaaba?

 

You overpassed the Stone of Skone mentioned; any other elucidation on it that I missed in the book? Challenges on the point to my challenges on the point?

 

One thing the authors never saw coming for sure, and that's the web.

 

It's late; that's a wrap.

[Majeston]

I have boldened a phrase from your addition which I find typical of an underhanded shot from the Christian slant inherent in the book.

 

you just might consider that the so-called "Christian slant" might actually be a Universe truth, as portrayed in the papers.

 

Strikes me more as a riddle with as many answers as one cares to offer. What do you think it reveals?

 

 

95:7.6 The strength of Islam has been its clear-cut and well-defined presentation of Allah as the one and only Deity; its weakness, the association of military force with its promulgation, together with its degradation of woman. But it has steadfastly held to its presentation of the One Universal Deity of all, " who knows the invisible and the visible. He is the merciful and the compassionate. " " Truly God is plenteous in goodness to all men. " " And when I am sick, it is he who heals me. " " For whenever as many as three speak together, God is present as a fourth, " for is he not " the first and the last, also the seen and the hidden? "

 

95:7.7 [Presented by a Melchizedek of Nebadon. ]

 

I think it reveals a celestial overview of what is right and what is wrong with the Muslim religion. A revelation encapusulated in one simple paragraph by someone with the vision and recognition of what is really important and what is really going on in the universe. If you fail to understand this then you fail to understand what the papers are really all about.

 

 

Quote:

95:7.5 There was only one factor of a tribal, racial, or national nature about the primitive and unorganized beliefs of the desert, and that was the peculiar and general respect which almost all Arabian tribes were willing to pay to a certain black stone fetish in a certain temple at Mecca.

 

 

 

First the writer says 'There was only one...', then contradicts that by saying 'almost all...'. Terrible sloppy indecision for an angel; cagey bamboozle for humans.

 

there is no contradiction, you misread and misunderstood the paragraph. You also are unable to see the forest for the trees as you try to zero-in on the minutia and the meaningless, as you already attempt to approach truth from the position of ridicule and skepticism mixed in with just a dash of wonder and uncertainity.

 

 

With all the supposed authority of the author Meltcheesedit, and the time at hand for the human editors, what excuse is there in this passage to suddenly get vaugue on details known? Why now say 'certain black stone fetish' when it was earlier named as the Kaaba?

 

Well, for one thing, paper 88 was written by a "Brilliant Evening Star" and paper 95 was written by a "Melchizedek". The "Melchizedek" was referencing the earlier statement and expanding the illustration with a different purpose.

 

What I think is funny is that one day in the future you might just personally meet this certain "Meltcheesedit" and I certainly hope you will invite some of us to laugh with you as you are humbled by self-introspection and recognition of truth.

 

 

 

I can do no more than show you the well, where, when and what you drink is most certainly dependent on your own resources contingent upon your own level of enlightenment.

 

For your own enlightenment, Turtle, and certainly in your own sweet time, you just might read about the Melchizedek order mission and review the true enlightenment offered to you freely as well as the level of intelligence and experience in relation to your own by starting with the appearance of Machiventa Melchizedek and the subsequent rendition of reality on planet earth in proportion to universal truth beginning with papers 66-72 and papers 92-106 which culminate with a fantastic view of spiritual reality unequalled anywhere else on earth except by high celestial beings and unequalled with beauty of expression of concepts never before approached utilizing the English language. So much for your authoritatively condescending comment "On general writing style points, I give it a hazy ambiguous 4. I expect more of angels and as much of men & ladies. "

 

. . then with such insightful realizations as:

 

 

"When Elijah was called away, Elisha, his faithful associate, took up his work and, with the invaluable assistance of the little-known Micaiah, kept the light of truth alive in Palestine.

 

But these were not times of progress in the concept of Deity. Not yet had the Hebrews ascended even to the Mosaic ideal. The era of Elijah and Elisha closed with the better classes returning to the worship of the supreme Yahweh and witnessed the restoration of the idea of the Universal Creator to about that place where Samuel had left it."

 

 

 

"

 

No prophet or religious teacher from Machiventa to the time of Jesus attained the high concept of God that Isaiah the second proclaimed during these days of the captivity."

 

 

" A new concept of the supreme and universal Yahweh has appeared in the mind of mortal man, never to be lost to human view. The realization of divine justice has begun the destruction of primitive magic and biologic fear. At last, man is introduced to a universe of law and order and to a universal God of dependable and final attributes."

 

 

This, Turtle, is what the Urantia papers are about and this is what epochal revelation is about. It is not about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, what the quantity of calcium is in the universe; who seemingly plagiarized what and by who's standards, nor how many pinheads regurgitate biased; ignorant; erroneous opinions about something they haven't even scratched the surface of. If the whole idea of spiritual eternal truth is too droll or incomprehensible for you, then by all means stay just exactly where you are.

 

 

1. TIME AND ETERNITY

 

It is helpful to man's cosmic orientation to attain all possible comprehension of Deity's relation to the cosmos. While absolute Deity is eternal in nature, the Gods are related to time as an experience in eternity. In the evolutionary universes eternity is temporal everlastingness--the everlasting now.

 

The personality of the mortal creature may eternalize by self-identification with the indwelling spirit through the technique of choosing to do the will of the Father. Such a consecration of will is tantamount to the realization of eternity-reality of purpose. This means that the purpose of the creature has become fixed with regard to the succession of moments; stated otherwise, that the succession of moments will witness no change in creature purpose. A million or a billion moments makes no difference. Number has ceased to have meaning with regard to the creature's purpose. Thus does creature choice plus God's choice eventuate in the eternal realities of the never-ending union of the spirit of God and the nature of man in the everlasting service of the children of God and of their Paradise Father.

 

PAPER 118 - SUPREME AND ULTIMATE--TIME AND SPACE

[Majeston]

 

One thing the authors never saw coming for sure, and that's the web.

 

I'm sure that's a joke.

 

Your comprehension of universe reality and our place on the scale of evolutionary development in comparison is a revelation to me.

 

"

 

3,000,000,000 years ago the solar system was functioning much as it does today. Its members continued to grow in size as space meteors continued to pour in upon the planets and their satellites at a prodigious rate.

 

About this time your solar system was placed on the physical registry of Nebadon and given its name, Monmatia.'

 

 

Internet ?????? I think it's hard for them to stoop that low on the evolution of technology scale. We might just as well still be swinging from trees.

[Turtle]

...This, Turtle, is what the Urantia papers are about and this is what epochal revelation is about. It is not about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, what the quantity of calcium is in the universe; who seemingly plagiarized what and by who's standards, nor how many pinheads regurgitate biased; ignorant; erroneous opinions about something they haven't even scratched the surface of. If the whole idea of spiritual eternal truth is too droll or incomprehensible for you, then by all means stay just exactly where you are.

 

Maybe I'm just not Violet enough. :) :D

64:1.8 And thus it has ever been on Urantia. Civilizations of great promise have successively deteriorated and have finally been extinguished by the folly of allowing the superior freely to procreate with the inferior.

The Evolutionary Races of Color; The Urantia Book: Paper 64

[Turtle]

Maybe I'm just not Violet enough. :shrug: :(

The Evolutionary Races of Color; The Urantia Book: Paper 64

 

Or should I say I'm too Green?

64:6.17 4. The green man. The green race was one of the less able groups of primitive men, and they were greatly weakened by extensive migrations in different directions. Before their dispersion these tribes experienced a great revival of culture under the leadership of Fantad, some three hundred and fifty thousand years ago.

64:6.18 The green race split into three major divisions: The northern tribes were subdued, enslaved, and absorbed by the yellow and blue races. The eastern group were amalgamated with the Indian peoples of those days, and remnants still persist among them. The southern nation entered Africa, where they destroyed their almost equally inferior orange cousins.

64:6.19 In many ways both groups were evenly matched in this struggle since each carried strains of the giant order, many of their leaders being eight and nine feet in height. These giant strains of the green man were mostly confined to this southern or Egyptian nation.

64:6.20 The remnants of the victorious green men were subsequently absorbed by the indigo race, the last of the colored peoples to develop and emigrate from the original Sangik center of race dispersion. ...

 

I have heard of finds of giant human skeletons, particularly in the late 1800's in America. Where are any ancient giant human skeletons today?

[Majeston]

Turtle,

if you do a little bit of deep research into ancient Egypt, you just might find many references to the Green royalty.

Sadler is spelled with one "D"

 

Osiris

 

Other Names: Oser, Aser, Asar, Usire

 

Patron of: the Underworld, the dead, past Pharaohs, agriculture (old form), fertility (old form).

 

Appearance: In his original form, a green-skinned man dressed in the raiment of a pharaoh. Following the Legend of Osiris, he appears as a green-skinned man in the form of a mummified pharaoh. He is often depicted wearing the atef crown with a pair of ram horns at its base.

http://www.greatdreams.com/osiris5.jpg

http://www.greatdreams.com/osiris~1.jpg

 

Geb

Role: God of the earth

 

Appearance: Green-skinned man, with leaves all over his body and a goose on his head. Sometimes he was shown laying on his side under his wife, the sky goddess Nut.

 

Sacred animals: goose

 

Relations with other gods: Nut (wife), Shu (father), Tefnut (mother), Osiris and Set (sons), Isis and Nephthys (daughters)

 

 

 

http://www.greatdreams.com/osiris4.jpg

http://www.greatdreams.com/geb.jpg

http://www.neferchichi.com/images/godsinfo/geb.jpg

 

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/tatenen3.jpg

 

 

 

 

Hapi - God of the Nile

 

 

 

Hapi was the ancient Egyptian god of the Nile. He was depicted as green-skinned and with a woman's breasts (LOL, probably because he was a woman, Smiley ), representing the fertility and life-giving resources of the river.

 

The ancient Egyptians prayed to Hapi to ensure that the annual inundations or floods would bring s

The Egyptians worshipped Hapi more than any other Egyptian gods and goddesses. To the Egyptians, the Nile river was of the greatest importance. Without the Nile, life would not have been sustainable.

 

http://www.nekhebet.com/images/r_gods1_6.gif

 

 

 

PTAH

 

Role: God of architects and artisans, also known as a god of the creation of the earth

 

Appearance: A green-skinned mummiform man, wearing a skull cap and holding a combination djed and was scepter.

 

Center of worship: Memphis

 

Relations with other gods: husband of Sekhmet, father of Nefertem

 

Ptah was a great creator god who merely had to speak the names of things and they would exist. Ptah was credited with the creation of many things:

 

http://www.neferchichi.com/images/godsinfo/ptah.jpg

http://www.timstouse.com/images/EarthHistory/Egyptgods/EgyptianGods.jpg

 

 

Buto - "She Who is Green"

 

Cobra-goddess of Lower Egypt

 

 

Buto did not just protect Egypt, she also was an aggressive defender of the king. She was portrayed as the uraeus cobra first worn on the brow of Re, and later the pharaohs'. Her hood is spread in a threatening position and she is ready to spit poison on all of the pharaoh's enemies or burn them with her fiery glare. It is thought perhaps that her powers could be used against the pharaoh as well. Her bite may have been the deadly device used by Anubis at the appointed time of the pharaoh's death.

 

Buto was a personification of the sun's burning heat and she was called the "Lady of Heaven" and the queen of all of the gods. She was closely associated with Horus the Elder, who was the protector god of Lower Egypt. Also she was associated with Harpokrates (Horus the Younger); she protected him from Seth in the marshes of the Delta while Isis was searching for the body of Osiris.

 

Buto was depicted in art as a woman wearing the uraeus or the Red Crown of Lower Egypt. She was shown carrying a papyrus stem around which was coiled a cobra. Sometimes she was shown as just a cobra coiled in a basket and wearing the crown of Lower Egypt.

 

 

 

 

In many ways both groups were evenly matched in this struggle since each carried strains of the giant order, many of their leaders being eight and nine feet in height. These giant strains of the green man were mostly confined to this southern or Egyptian nation.

 

 

 

 

Urantia Book, Paper 64: Section 6 -- The Six Sangik Races Of Urantia

Isn't it a little more than interesting that the Urantia book not only has the history of the colored races, but their location as well.

 

 

The Blue man, as you know is very prominent in India and their paintings and tradition.

[REASON]

Turtle,

if you do a little bit of deep research into ancient Egypt, you just might find many references to the Green royalty.

 

The Blue man, as you know is very prominent in India and their paintings and tradition.

 

Can you provide anything other than your opinion as to whether the colored races mentioned in the UP are referring to the same gods or peoples described in ancient Egyptian legend?

 

Even if they are (which I would still contend is highly questionable), how does vaguely alluding to known ancient legends of colored races, royalty or gods, such as you provided examples of, establish validity with the UP? Comming up with a varied way of reiterating ancient myths does not constitute legitimate proof of anything in my estimation.

 

Besides all that nonsense. If it is so important for the people of Urantia to become aware of the true nature of the universe by way of the UP, why allow for doubt? If we are ready to receive this information, why all the secrecy? Why do we remain unworthy of a visit from the Divine Counselor, the Perfector of Wisdom, or the Mighty Messenger? Why are we continually expected to take all these godly scriptures on faith?

 

Why do you think they remain so unwilling to reveal themselves?

 

My explanation is that they can't, simply because they do not exist. The solution for those like myself would be for them to kindly show up.

 

Meanwhile, until they do, the book remains as nothing more than a tall tale of fantasy characters, vague speculation, and conjecture so easily succumbed to by those yearning to believe that they have found all of the answers, and will be protected from their own mortality.

[Turtle]

Turtle,

if you do a little bit of deep research into ancient Egypt, you just might find many references to the Green royalty.

Sadler is spelled with one "D"

Hapi - God of the Nile

 

Hapi was the ancient Egyptian god of the Nile. He was depicted as green-skinned and with a woman's breasts (LOL, probably because he was a woman, Smiley ), representing the fertility and life-giving resources of the river.

 

http://www.nekhebet.com/images/r_gods1_6.gif.

 

I'm happy to hear your humorous voice, and I appreciate the research and the Hapi imagery. :D It's at least every bit as good as the Urantia's authors. I am intimately familiar with the water spirits. :(

 

Can you [Majestron] provide anything other than your opinion as to whether the colored races mentioned in the UP are referring to the same gods or peoples described in ancient Egyptian legend?

 

I have some hearsay evidence I'd like to present on this question; if for no other reason than that I found it. :shrug:

 

I refer again to the spirit of the day surrounding the Columbian Exposition of 1893 in Chicago. Keeping in mind this is where Sadler & Kellog and their group lived, as well as the current headquarters of the Urantia Foundation. Here is a written expression of the ideals from the period & place, penned by Exposition organizers, that expresses what I believe became the purpose of the Urantia Book authors & editors.

THE VARIOUS SPECIAL MISSIONS. Besides the work of Professor Adler already mentioned at some length, and that of one or two other similar agents briefly refcn ed to in the foregoing pages, several more special missions call for a word.

Two official commissions were sent to Europe in 1891-- the first in the summer consisting of five members: Hon Benjamin Butterworth, Maj. Moses T. Handy, Ferdinand W. Peck, esq., Senator William Lindsay, and A.G. Bullock, esq. Their mission was mainly to northern Europe and was eminently successful. From their report of September 24, 1891, are extracted the following conclusions:

In their visit to the several governments of Europe the commissioners endeavored not only to explain the scope and plan of the Exposition, the ways and means provided for an exhibit of those material things which evidence the progress of civilization in the industrial arts and applied sciences, but they also called attention to the arrangements that are being made to illustrate the advancement in the moral, intellectual, and social worlds that a series of congresses would he held during the Exposition season and that at these congresses the important problems of the age, social, scientific, financial, and economic, would be discussed by the foremost thinkers and writers of the United States and other countries. ...

>World's Columbian Exposition, Chicago, Ill., 1893 By Committee on Awards, World's Columbian Commission

World's Columbian Exposition ... - Google Book Search

 

 

Even if they are (which I would still contend is highly questionable), how does vaguely alluding to known ancient legends of colored races, royalty or gods, such as you provided examples of, establish validity with the UP? Comming up with a varied way of reiterating ancient myths does not constitute legitimate proof of anything in my estimation.

 

I agree that it does not as well. Finding complications and contradictions however, is working remarkably well at rooting out the how & why of the Urantia's production. If no other thing, a fascinating historical look at a bygone age.

[Majeston]

ok

[Caligastia]

Hi All,

 

I'm a bit late in coming to this discussion, but I'd like to see it continue.

 

For me, the idea of human authorship of the UB does not jive with what I know about humans. After seriously studying the book, it's difficult to imagine that a group of self-deceived or egoistic humans could have written it. If they were self-deceived, how could they have been of sound enough mind to manage the production of such a work? If they were on an egoistic "save the world" mission, they would never have been able to resist the urge to take some credit for the book. Quite simply, I don't believe that human authors are capable of the incredible combination of wisdom, knowledge, and consistency contained in the UB papers.

 

:)

[Moontanman]

Hi All,

 

I'm a bit late in coming to this discussion, but I'd like to see it continue.

 

For me, the idea of human authorship of the UB does not jive with what I know about humans. After seriously studying the book, it's difficult to imagine that a group of self-deceived or egoistic humans could have written it. If they were self-deceived, how could they have been of sound enough mind to manage the production of such a work? If they were on an egoistic "save the world" mission, they would never have been able to resist the urge to take some credit for the book. Quite simply, I don't believe that human authors are capable of the incredible combination of wisdom, knowledge, and consistency contained in the UB papers.

 

:)

 

aww come on, lets give credit where credit is due, humans are complety capable of writing a long manuscript full of BS, lies and inuendoes. Urantia book is proof of this.

[Turtle]

Hi All,

 

I'm a bit late in coming to this discussion, but I'd like to see it continue.

 

For me, the idea of human authorship of the UB does not jive with what I know about humans. :shrug:

 

Hey Prince. :hihi: I don't know what to say other than perhaps you haven't run across the right humans yet. :P Here's some more reading at Hypography on the authorship angle of Urantia, in case you missed it. :) >> http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/3199-urantia-book-who-could-ve-hoaxed.html

[Caligastia]

Thanks Turtle, I'll check it out.

[REASON]

The fact that this time in history was characterized by the search for unification of science, religion, and social development shows that we were ready to receive our next revelation.

 

Speak for yourself. I don't buy it. I'm tired of authoritative scriptures that expect me to take their information on faith.

 

Show me a God, or a messiah, or a Divine Counselor and I'll hop right on board. Until then, these books serve only to fill some void in peoples lives, or some need they have to feel like they're "in the know."

 

As long as the Urantia Papers rely on fantastic speculation and conjecture that seems too amazing to not be true, it will in fact, continue to not be true. What you choose to believe is ultimately beside the point of this fact.

 

Whatever floats your boat, right? :confused:

[Caligastia]

Speak for yourself. I don't buy it. I'm tired of authoritative scriptures that expect me to take their information on faith.

 

Show me a God, or a messiah, or a Divine Counselor and I'll hop right on board. Until then, these books serve only to fill some void in peoples lives, or some need they have to feel like they're "in the know."

 

As long as the Urantia Papers rely on fantastic speculation and conjecture that seems too amazing to not be true, it will in fact, continue to not be true. What you choose to believe is ultimately beside the point of this fact.

 

Whatever floats your boat, right? :confused:

 

Well, the great thing about the UB is that refusing to believe without seeing is not punishable by death or eternal hellfire.:eek: I don't hold it against you in the least, and neither does God. The fact that you are willing to "hop on board" when you are shown will be more than enough to ensure your eternal survival.

 

I don't read the book in order to fulfill a psychological need to be in some special club that is "in the know" - I sincerely want to know more about deity and the universe. I'm sure you don't hold that against me.