Terraforming Mars

[CraigD]

It would be like pouring water into a leaky bucket.

Yes, but a planet-size, slowly leaking bucket. Best current data and theory suggest that in its distant past (the Noachian era, 3.8 to 3.5 billion years ago), Mars had significant amounts of liquid water, for on the order of 100 million years.

 

Again, the conventional goal of terraforming is not making an Earth-like world that will last long enough to recreate billions of years of terrestrial biological evolution, but to make other planets and moons human habitable for periods of time long by human standards – thousands, not hundreds of millions of years.

[LaurieAG]

Given that an ionosphere, which Mars currently has, even with its thin (about 0.01 Earth’s pressure) atmosphere, provides most of the habitability benefits that a magnetic field contributes to, why would you want to spend effort to give it a magnetic field?

 

Hi CraigD,

 

If you used a non ice object (your new moon) to gather and lead all the KBO's to Mars you could save multiple trips and get the moon/staging post for free.

 

In short, I remain of the opinion that, while with much greater space engineering capabilities than are currently available to humankind, terraforming Mars is technically possible, I doubt it will be economically or esthetically attractive at any time in the next 100 years.

 

Lets hope our societies can last that long.

[modest]

Liquid water cannot exist on the surface of Mars with its present low atmospheric pressure, except at the lowest elevations for short periods

 

 

Mars lost its magnetosphere 4 billion years ago, so the solar wind interacts directly with the Martian ionosphere, keeping the atmosphere thinner than it would otherwise be by stripping away atoms from the outer layer. Both Mars Global Surveyor and Mars Express have detected these ionised atmospheric particles trailing off into space behind Mars.

 

It would be like pouring water into a leaky bucket.

 

You may be wrong about that - and I think you are - Craig makes an excellent point.

 

Nevertheless, I think I may agree that it is slightly futile to bombard mars with comets in hopes of habitation. I fail to see how putting ice on an iceberg will help you grow an apple tree. Mars is frozen. It will remain so until it has an atmosphere and quite a substantial atmosphere at that. There's probably a clever way to overcome that problem, I just can't think of it.

 

-modest

[freeztar]

You may be wrong about that - and I think you are - Craig makes an excellent point.

 

Nevertheless, I think I may agree that it is slightly futile to bombard mars with comets in hopes of habitation. I fail to see how putting ice on an iceberg will help you grow an apple tree. Mars is frozen. It will remain so until it has an atmosphere and quite a substantial atmosphere at that. There's probably a clever way to overcome that problem, I just can't think of it.

 

-modest

 

Given my penchant for abiogenesis, I believe that bacteria could be excellent atmosphere formers, given the right starting conditions. This could warm up the "icy ball" much faster than trying to inject an artificial atmosphere, imho. Nonetheless, comets would seem to help the situation by providing more water and organic compounds.

 

On Earth, many extremophiles do quite well in icy conditions. Perhaps we should setup an experimental tardigrade station on Mars. :hyper:

[Zythryn]

While we can create atmosphere, over time, on Mars, don't we still have the issue of not enough mass to stop the atmosphere from escaping?

[modest]

Given my penchant for abiogenesis, I believe that bacteria could be excellent atmosphere formers, given the right starting conditions. This could warm up the "icy ball" much faster than trying to inject an artificial atmosphere, imho. Nonetheless, comets would seem to help the situation by providing more water and organic compounds.

 

On Earth, many extremophiles do quite well in icy conditions. Perhaps we should setup an experimental tardigrade station on Mars. :hyper:

 

I think bacteria would be better atmosphere transformers than instigators. And, I'm not sure I think they could do well on mars in anything like its current conditions. Antarctica - or the south pole I should say - doesn't really have any liquid water. It is a cold desert for all intents and purposes. Mars is much more so. We could expect bacteria to do worse on mars than the south pole.

 

Perhaps we could engineer little warm-blooded bacteria that could survive in a vacuum and eat minerals and release oxygen. Not too far fetched - not really. That might be the quickest way to get things done. So, yes, I think you could be right. But, our bacteria is going to need some major upgrading.

 

-modest

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Liquid water cannot exist on the surface of Mars with its present low atmospheric pressure, except at the lowest elevations for short periods

 

 

Mars lost its magnetosphere 4 billion years ago, so the solar wind interacts directly with the Martian ionosphere, keeping the atmosphere thinner than it would otherwise be by stripping away atoms from the outer layer. Both Mars Global Surveyor and Mars Express have detected these ionised atmospheric particles trailing off into space behind Mars.

 

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

It would be like pouring water into a leaky bucket.

 

 

You may be wrong about that - and I think you are - Craig makes an excellent point.

 

 

 

-modest

May be wrong about what? that mars is a leaky bucket.

Even if you could raise the temp on mars, which you cannot, to get liquid water, the water would quickly evaporate into space.

[Thunderbird]

I think bacteria would be better atmosphere transformers than instigators. And, I'm not sure I think they could do well on mars in anything like its current conditions. Antarctica - or the south pole I should say - doesn't really have any liquid water. It is a cold desert for all intents and purposes. Mars is much more so. We could expect bacteria to do worse on mars than the south pole.

 

Perhaps we could engineer little warm-blooded bacteria that could survive in a vacuum and eat minerals and release oxygen. Not too far fetched - not really. That might be the quickest way to get things done. So, yes, I think you could be right. But, our bacteria is going to need some major upgrading.

 

-modest

The south pole is on earth, its part of our bioshpere and is nothing like mars.

There is liquid water in the south pole.

 

Even if you could you start out with some freaky genetically engineered little warm-blooded, mineral eating, oxgen releasing bacteria, which you cannot, giving the fact that the surface is constantly bombarded with radiation and cosmic rays it would more than likly die, or worse yet become a deadly pathogen rather than a teraforming agent.

[modest]

It would be like pouring water into a leaky bucket.

 

You may be wrong about that - and I think you are - Craig makes an excellent point.

 

May be wrong about what? that mars is a leaky bucket.

 

I should have been more clear. You may be wrong that it is impossible to form an atmosphere in the first place. I assume this is what you're saying. Once you form an atmosphere presumably you have the ability to sustain it. In other words, if you have the ability to fill a leaky bucket then you should have the ability to keep the leaky bucket full. The ladder requires less work. Once you have an atmosphere and have raised pressure and temperature enough to keep water liquid on the surface then your next comment is not immediately clear:

 

Even if you could raise the temp on mars, which you cannot, to get liquid water, the water would quickly evaporate into space.

 

As Craig pointed out, mars once had an atmosphere substantial enough to sustain liquid water - so we know it's possible, yes?

 

The south pole is on earth, its part of our bioshpere and is nothing like mars.

There is liquid water in the south pole.

 

My point was that the driest and coldest place on earth is still better for bacteria than Mars.

 

Even if you could you start out with some freaky genetically engineered little warm-blooded, mineral eating, oxgen releasing bacteria, which you cannot,

 

Not with current technology and not with that attitude, no.

 

giving the fact that the surface is constantly bombarded with radiation and cosmic rays it would more than likly die,

 

There exist bacteria on the control rods of nuclear reactors.

 

//edit

 

While I've heard this, I am unable to find a source for it. Bactera nevertheless can survive highly radioactive situations (more radioactive by far than Mars):

Bugs in the Reactor - TIME

 

and scientists are studying bacteria that manage well:

SpringerLink - Journal Article

 

//edit

 

or worse yet become a deadly pathogen rather than a teraforming agent.

 

Once again, if we overcome the problem of engineering bacteria that do our bidding on mars then it will be less of a problem to keep the little buggers from mutating into something harmful to us. The ladder takes less work and understanding.

[Moontanman]

Terraforming Mars

 

 

NASA has on occasion suggested that the human race could one day colonize Mars, and also initiate life to take hold on the surface. I understand that there have been nigh Sayers in the past about the limits of science, and I hate to be one, but I do not believe this at all feasible. It is a dead planet, and always will be, period.... What do you think ? Does NASA know something about Geophysics that I do not? ;)

 

Smack mars with a few dozen large comets, or broken pieces of large objects from the area that Pluto occupies should bring enough volatile compounds in to make an atmosphere. The greenhouse effects from those gases would raise the temps and then you could introduce extremeophile organisms from the earth, eventually even oxygen producing bacteria. Then you could introduce higher organisms. It would only take a few thousand to tens of thousand years. The atmosphere should last for few million years before it became necessary to bring in more volatile compounds. It is feasible but it would a very long term project. As for the whole planet needing to be alive from the core outward. Not necessary to transplant life from the Earth to Mars, the whole active Earth thing makes life more likely to exist here for longer periods of time but eventually the Earth will die when the earth looses it's magnetic field and then looses it's atmosphere. Even the Earth will die but it could be resuscitated by adding the volatile compounds that will be lost over time.

[modest]

Earth will die when the earth looses it's magnetic field and then looses it's atmosphere.

 

Why assume Earth would loose its atmosphere? I don't think it would - at least not quickly. Venus has no magnetic field, more solar wind, and less mass. All that, and more atmosphere than it knows what to do with.

 

This makes me think, could we more easily terraform Venus by stripping away its atmosphere than terraforming mars?

 

-modest

 

[Moderator note: responses to this post were split off into the thread 14540, because the two subjects are literally worlds apart]

[dcmike]

In answer to the critics on the obviously distant time frame and complication of terraforming Mars I say:

 

Man has been on a loooong journey from our beginnings in the oceans to where we are now. "We" obviously worked our way up on land because the only life form that was safe in the oceans then was kelp {kelp now fears only the Japanese!) - everything else was a predator! The marine environment is the most violent and hazardous place I know of on this planet.

 

We did this over millions of years and the next escape might take thousands, but patience always wins - if we don't destroy the planet first. As the Sun heats up and enlarges to ultimately fry us like an omlet, Mars may buy us a few thousand years - if we start now in our efforts to "fertilize" it. If we don't we are surely doomed. If we survive long enough to reside on Mars as residents (no green card)our technology will be advanced to the point that we may be on the horizon of discovering ways to travel fast enough to seek out the many possibilities that surely exist in the vast universe.

 

ON THE DOWN SIDE:

1 - I ponder that we (humans) are literally tailored to this planet and may be doomed with it. Our bodies need salt because of our origins in the sea, minerals, calcium etc. Although we are fabricated of the five most common elements in the universe we may not be able to adapt and evolve quickly enough to inhabit a new world.

 

2- If a new world were already inhabited we would be as welcome as the Haitian boat people were in the eighties, or even considered so below them they would "welcome" us as nearly slave labor like we Americans do with the Mexicans. There's always hope. Maybe with our quaint ways some of us could do something "Earthy" like play guitar, and be an exception like Carlos Santana is here!

 

3- In view of the way we have conquered, enslaved and even destroyed what we considered lower forms - even of our own species - maybe we should reconsider transmitting radio signals into space that say "here we are!" We have no way of knowing how good we may taste to them!!

[Moontanman]

In answer to the critics on the obviously distant time frame and complication of terraforming Mars I say:

 

Man has been on a loooong journey from our beginnings in the oceans to where we are now. "We" obviously worked our way up on land because the only life form that was safe in the oceans then was kelp {kelp now fears only the Japanese!) - everything else was a predator! The marine environment is the most violent and hazardous place I know of on this planet.

 

We did this over millions of years and the next escape might take thousands, but patience always wins - if we don't destroy the planet first. As the Sun heats up and enlarges to ultimately fry us like an omlet, Mars may buy us a few thousand years - if we start now in our efforts to "fertilize" it. If we don't we are surely doomed. If we survive long enough to reside on Mars as residents (no green card)our technology will be advanced to the point that we may be on the horizon of discovering ways to travel fast enough to seek out the many possibilities that surely exist in the vast universe.

 

ON THE DOWN SIDE:

1 - I ponder that we (humans) are literally tailored to this planet and may be doomed with it. Our bodies need salt because of our origins in the sea, minerals, calcium etc. Although we are fabricated of the five most common elements in the universe we may not be able to adapt and evolve quickly enough to inhabit a new world.

 

2- If a new world were already inhabited we would be as welcome as the Haitian boat people were in the eighties, or even considered so below them they would "welcome" us as nearly slave labor like we Americans do with the Mexicans. There's always hope. Maybe with our quaint ways some of us could do something "Earthy" like play guitar, and be an exception like Carlos Santana is here!

 

3- In view of the way we have conquered, enslaved and even destroyed what we considered lower forms - even of our own species - maybe we should reconsider transmitting radio signals into space that say "here we are!" We have no way of knowing how good we may taste to them!!

 

Way before we are able to colonise other planets we will be able to make orbiting colonies like the O'Neil cylinders. these large orbiting colonies will make the need for planets obsolet. Once we are able to build these colonies the way we build manufactured housing now we can build hundreds of thousands if not millions and slowly spread through out the galaxy. Only using planetary systems for raw materials and leaving the planets alone.

[Thunderbird]

Way before we are able to colonise other planets we will be able to make orbiting colonies like the O'Neil cylinders. these large orbiting colonies will make the need for planets obsolet. Once we are able to build these colonies the way we build manufactured housing now we can build hundreds of thousands if not millions and slowly spread through out the galaxy. Only using planetary systems for raw materials and leaving the planets alone.

 

 

Billions of years of evolution to live in a metal can floating in a lifeless vacuum.

What a beautiful visionary you are.:)

[Moontanman]

Billions of years of evolution to live in a metal can floating in a lifeless vacuum.

What a beautiful visionary you are.:)

 

Thunderbird, you know that is not what I am talking about. Your ignorance of what an O'Neill type of colony is doesn't excuse your harassment of me. I don't follow your posts looking to take cheap shots at you. Give it a rest.

[Thunderbird]

Thunderbird, you know that is not what I am talking about. Your ignorance of what an O'Neill type of colony is doesn't excuse your harassment of me. I don't follow your posts looking to take cheap shots at you. Give it a rest.

 

I believe this is my thread, here's some wisdom from an earthling such as I.

 

 

THIS EARTH IS PRECIOUS

How can you buy or sell the sky, the warmth of the land? The idea is strange to us. If we do not own the freshness of the air and sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?

 

Every part of this earth is sacred to my people.

Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every clearing and humming insect is holy in the memory and experience of my people. The sap which courses through the trees carries the memories of the red man.

The white man's dead forget the country of their birth when they go to walk among the stars. Our dead never forget this beautiful earth, for it is the mother of the red man.

 

We are part of the earth and it is part of us.

 

The perfumed flowers are our sisters; the deer, the horse, the great eagle, these are our brothers.

 

The rocky crests, the juices in the meadows, the body heat of the pony, and man--all belong to the same family.

 

 

So, when the Great Chief in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy land, he asks much of us. The Great Chief sends word he will reserve us a place so that we can live comfortably to ourselves.

He will be our father and we will be his children. So we will consider your offer to buy our land.

 

But it will not be easy. For this land is sacred to us.

 

This shining water that moves in the streams and rivers is not just water but the blood of our ancestors.

 

If we sell you land, you must remember that it is sacred, and you must teach your children that it is sacred and that each ghostly reflection in the clear water of the lakes tells of events and memories in the life of my people.

 

The water's murmur is the voice of my father's father.

 

 

The rivers are our brothers, they quench our thirst. The rivers carry our canoes, and feed our children. If we sell you our land, you must remember, and teach your children, that the rivers are our brothers, and yours, and you must henceforth give the rivers the kindness you would give any brother.

We know that the white man does not understand our ways. One portion of land is the same to him as the next, for he is a stranger who comes in the night and takes from the land whatever he needs.

 

The earth is not his brother, but his enemy, and when he has conquered it, he moves on.He leaves his father's graves behind, and he does not care.

 

He kidnaps the earth from his children, and he does not care.

 

His father's grave, and his children's birthright, are forgotten. He treats his mother, the earth, and his brother, the sky, as things to be bought, plundered, sold like sheep or bright beads.

 

His appetite will devour the earth and leave behind only a desert.

 

I do not know. Our ways are different from your ways.

The sight of your cities pains the eyes of the red man. But perhaps it is because the red man is a savage and does not understand.

 

There is no quiet place in the white man's cities. No place to hear the unfurling of leaves in spring, or the rustle of an insect's wings.

 

But perhaps it is because I am a savage and do not understand.

 

The clatter only seems to insult the ears. And what is there to life if a man cannot hear the lonely cry of the whippoorwill or the arguments of the frogs around a pond at night? I am a red man and do not understand.

 

The Indian prefers the soft sound of the wind darting over the face of a pond, and the smell of the wind itself, cleaned by a midday rain, or scented with the pinion pine.

 

 

The air is precious to the red man, for all things share the same breath--the beast, the tree, the man, they all share the same breath.

The white man does not seem to notice the air he breathes.

 

Like a man dying for many days, he is numb to the stench.

 

But if we sell you our land, you must remember that the air is precious to us, that the air shares its spirit with all the life it supports. The wind that gave our grandfather his first breath also receives his last sigh.

 

And if we sell you our land, you must keep it apart and sacred, as a place where even the white man can go to taste the wind that is sweetened by the meadow's flowers.

 

 

So we will consider your offer to buy our land. If we decide to accept, I will make one condition: The white man must treat the beasts of this land as his brothers.

I am a savage and I do not understand any other way.

 

I've seen a thousand rotting buffaloes on the prairie, left by the white man who shot them from a passing train.

 

I am a savage and I do not understand how the smoking iron horse can be more important than the buffalo that we kill only to stay alive.

 

What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, man would die from a great loneliness of spirit.

 

For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

 

You must teach your children that the ground beneath their feet is the ashes of your grandfathers. So that they will respect the land, tell your children that the earth is rich with the lives of our kin.

Teach your children what we have taught our children, that the earth is our mother.

 

Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of the earth. If men spit upon the ground, they spit upon themselves.

 

This we know: The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth. This we know.

 

All things are connected like the blood which unites one family. All things are connected.

 

Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of the earth.

 

Man did not weave the web of life: he is merely a strand in it.

 

Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself.

 

Even the white man, whose God walks and talks with him as friend to friend, cannot be exempt from the common destiny.

 

We may be brothers after all.

 

We shall see.

 

One thing we know, which the white man may one day discover, our God is the same God. You may think now that you own Him as you wish to own our land; but you cannot. He is the God of man, and His compassion is equal for the red man and the white.

 

This earth is precious to Him, and to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its Creator.

 

The whites too shall pass; perhaps sooner than all other tribes. Contaminate your bed, and you will one night suffocate in your own waste.

But in your perishing you will shine brightly, fired by the strength of God who brought you to this land and for some special purpose gave you dominion over this land and over the red man.

 

That destiny is a mystery to us, for we do not understand when the buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses are tamed, the secret corners of the forest heavy with scent of many men, and the view of the ripe hills blotted by talking wires.

 

Where is the thicket? Gone.

Where is the eagle? Gone.

The end of living and the beginning of survival.

 

Chief Seattle

[Thunderbird]

Thunderbird, you know that is not what I am talking about. Your ignorance of what an O'Neill type of colony is doesn't excuse your harassment of me. I don't follow your posts looking to take cheap shots at you. Give it a rest.

Its called a drawing.