Terraforming Mars

[dcmike]

TO Chief Seattle:

I agree 100% with what you say here. But also bear in mind that at one time there were no "people" of any color. As evolution dictated, we arrived on land as most insignificant, struggling little blobs. As we evolved we wandered even more, seeking - always seeking something. The 'red man' came from elsewhere as well, wandering to new lands to survive. And this will never stop until the last human succumbs to his mortality.

 

One day far in the future our beautiful island in the cosmos will lose it's beauty and become a hellish scorched cinder. I wouldn't choose to live in a capsule (as described in another post), but when that time comes and people are offered such a life - or death, only they can answer if it is worth it. "We" are planning ever more huge mega-buildings that would not only house you but remove the need to ever leave for want of anything. In Japan such things are in the works. These complexes will contain everything needed "live" - grocery stores, movie theatres, schools, ad infinitum. As we move further and further away from the natural life of the old ways, we will become more and more groomed for the ultimate condo in the sky.

 

It is a sad thing to see what we are doing with what we have now. It is sad that there is even a debate on global warming. Does it matter that some of it is natural? Would you not run from a meteor because it's natural? We are still heading for disaster, and many selfish souls are happy to palm it off on the future generation.

 

What went wrong Chief Seattle? Religion and overpopulated cities ("civilization") went wrong, and took everyone with it. People in cities have more opportunity to find mates, so they overpopulated and expanded to other areas. They were forbidden by their religion to control population by any means but war. As they crossed the oceans and landed on other people's homelands their cross was held high and millions fell beneath it. When you believe your religion makes you superior to all others you can denigrate the "unclean" and treat them as less than human - with sanctity. No guilt was felt because "God was on their side". Americans still worship this same god, never asking if he was immature then and has grown wiser now. It is still believed he was and is perfect.

 

Brutality is a human trait. Were we really created in god's image? As we gain more knowledge about the true nature of what we did to the American Indian we must also factor in the Aztecs for balance. They brutally conquered all their neighbors and made them produce gold and subjects for human sacrifice. A small number of conquistadores defeated them by making allies of their brutalized neighbors. Is it not ironic that:

• The Spaniards then exacted the gold from the Aztecs and slaughtered them too? One son of a ***** against another.
  
• The English then stole the gold from the Spaniards who had stolen it from the Aztecs who had stolen it from their neighboring tribes?
  
• The Aztecs converted easily to Christianity because both religions centered around human sacrifice!!
  

 

Why weren't the plains Indians brutal and depraved like that? Could it be because of lack of what we call civilization? Permanent dwellings and easier survival? It is getting harder to survive because we gather in cities, overpopulate and tax all resources. That's why the Mayans abandoned their magnificent cities. But they at least had somewhere to go. When they left the cities the human sacrifices disappeared.

 

As we lose our humanity more day by day and ponder our fate, remember one thing. In the Bibles the word heaven was never used in the singular, it was always "the heavens", and that referred to the entire vista upon which we gaze every night. One day all that is left of Christians, Muslims and Jews will peer out the windows of their orbiting capsules and gaze upon the desolate domain of their god - in the heavens.

[Thunderbird]

Thoughtful post, a bit depressing and misguided, but thoughtful, none the less.

 

Our collective future is one about vision, space is to explore but not for an escape rout from our problems.

 

We have all we need here and now to make a better future.

 

But you ungrateful children of men do not see it. You inherent the riches from your fore fathers and all you can do is complain.

 

Vision has to do with valuing our gifts as men, and the global community of man, then honoring theses gifts that are given to us by building on them for future generations to come.

I believe in this..... Its a good vision to have...... its a good path to take...... Its a wise path to take..... it is the only path to take.

Any ideas of leaving a mess to another to deal with or giving up, or blaming past generations, is selfish stupidly.

 

Our ancestors had it much harder than we do and they did not give up. We should be thankful for the thousand generations of people that worked and sacrificed to ensure our place on this beautiful planet

[dcmike]

To the question:

"I have read though the past threads, and everything I can find on the net, but I still do not see how we can bring a dead planet to life."

 

Although everything in theoretical physics is theoretical, it is believed that as the Sun heats up and expands - the very factor that forces us off Earth will melt Martian polar ice caps and restore liquid water to the surface. This would also retain more heat and some water would presumably go into the atmosphere as clouds, etc, etc. This would buy us another half billion years if it were feasible. Man has always wandered to find suitable habitat. Only difference - the trips and vehicles required would be on a bit grander scale.

 

I would imagine that, at this point, humanity would value environmental issues more heavily. They could tell their great, great,etc....grand children wonderful legends about oak trees, majestic feathered birds and beaches.

[Moontanman]

To the question:

"I have read though the past threads, and everything I can find on the net, but I still do not see how we can bring a dead planet to life."

 

Although everything in theoretical physics is theoretical, it is believed that as the Sun heats up and expands - the very factor that forces us off Earth will melt Martian polar ice caps and restore liquid water to the surface. This would also retain more heat and some water would presumably go into the atmosphere as clouds, etc, etc. This would buy us another half billion years if it were feasible. Man has always wandered to find suitable habitat. Only difference - the trips and vehicles required would be on a bit grander scale.

 

I would imagine that, at this point, humanity would value environmental issues more heavily. They could tell their great, great,etc....grand children wonderful legends about oak trees, majestic feathered birds and beaches.

 

You bring a dead planet to life the same way you bring a sterilized petri dish to life, you change the conditions to the point that life can survive then then transfer life to it. Life then multiplies and changes the environment further until the planet can support complex life. Genetic engineering will probably be used to speed up the process.

mars isn't too far from being able to support extremophiles now. It may even have it's own extremophiles under the crust. Changing the surface of mars to support complex life will take thousands of years at the very least, it will not be easy but it is possible. I think humans are more likely to build orbiting colonies around the sun than terra form a planet.

[Thunderbird]

You bring a dead planet to life the same way you bring a sterilized petri dish to life, you change the conditions to the point that life can survive then then transfer life to it. Life then multiplies and changes the environment further until the planet can support complex life. Genetic engineering will probably be used to speed up the process.

mars isn't too far from being able to support extremophiles now. It may even have it's own extremophiles under the crust. Changing the surface of mars to support complex life will take thousands of years at the very least, it will not be easy but it is possible. I think humans are more likely to build orbiting colonies around the sun than terra form a planet.

 

Hey, all we have to do is go get another planet from another solar system it will be just like going to the planet store, and if our sun runs out of energy we can just make another one woopeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!

[Moontanman]

Hey, all we have to do is go get another planet from another solar system it will be just like going to the planet store, and if our sun runs out of energy we can just make another one woopeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!

 

No need for a planet store, we'll live in tin cans and strangle each other for no reason at all........

[dcmike]

Here's a thought that nobody, including myself, has seemed to ponder yet.

 

Factor One:

Viruses can lie dormant for millions of years in the right medium like ice. Beyond that - viruses, many millions of years old, have been revived after being trapped in salt crystals!

 

Factor Two:

The second part involves "viral naiveté" - which should really drive a spike through Thunderbird's normally cool demeanor with us "yellow hairs". It was the concept deployed in the first major biological warfare campaign. The Meso American and North American Indians were almost totally wiped out by the tiniest army in the world - viruses. If you have any doubt about the "Christian" invader's intent, read up on the Massachussets Bay colony and the distribution of blankets to the native populace.

 

How could a small band of Spanish kill of 90% of the indigenous populace? Europeans lived in close proximity to herd animals and contracted less virulent strains of smallpox (cowpox) and were immune carriers of small pox - an army of "Typhoid Marys". The Indians were not immune - they had never experienced any of it - their bodies were virally naive.

 

 

Combine those two points for the obvious.

1. It is believed by some cosmologists that life might have developed first on Mars.
   
2. There are no currently detected life forms there
   
3. Terraforming Mars could revive any undetected, encysted (cyst = A small capsulelike sac that encloses certain organisms in their dormant or larval stage) viral life forms
   

 

We could have an even worse case of viral naiveté than the Indians. They were, at least, on their own planet (despite what the Europeans believed).

 

There could be a native virus of such a mortality rate (100%) that it could eat us alive in hours. Between ebola and the flesh eating bacteria that killed Jim Henson - we have something close to that here and now. Think of how much more robust a life form if it survived the total harshness of the present day Martian climate.

 

How totally divine we would likely taste after such a long fast!

[Moontanman]

Here's a thought that nobody, including myself, has seemed to ponder yet.

 

Factor One:

Viruses can lie dormant for millions of years in the right medium like ice. Beyond that - viruses, many millions of years old, have been revived after being trapped in salt crystals!

 

Factor Two:

The second part involves "viral naiveté" - which should really drive a spike through Thunderbird's normally cool demeanor. It was the concept deployed in the first major biological warfare campaign. The Meso American and North American Indians were almost totally wiped out by the tiniest army in the world - viruses. If you have any doubt about the "Christian" invader's intent, read up on the Massachussets Bay colony and the distribution of blankets to the native populace.

 

How could a small band of Spanish kill of 90% of the indigenous populace? Europeans lived in close proximity to herd animals and contracted less virulent strains of smallpox (cowpox) and were immune carriers of small pox - an army of "Typhoid Marys". The Indians were not immune - they had never experienced any of it - their bodies were virally naive.

 

 

Combine those two points for the obvious.

1. It is believed by some cosmologists that life might have developed first on Mars.
   
2. There are no currently detected life forms there
   
3. Terraforming Mars could revive any undetected, encysted (cyst = A small capsulelike sac that encloses certain organisms in their dormant or larval stage) viral life forms
   

 

We could have an even worse case of viral naiveté than the Indians. They were, at least, on their own planet (despite what the Europeans believed).

 

There could be a native virus of such mortality (100%) that it could eat us alive in hours. Between ebola and the flesh eating bacteria that killed Jim Henson - we have something close to that here and now. Think of how much more robust a life form if it survived the total harshness of the present day Martian climate.

 

How totally divine we would likely taste after such a long fast!

 

While what you say about the Native Americans is sadly true, we would be more likely to catch petunia wilt than catch a virus from a planet we have no evolutionary history with.

[dcmike]

RE: While what you say about the Native Americans is sadly true, we would be more likely to catch petunia wilt....

 

(

petunia wilt

a soil borne malady of

plant

life forms)than catch a virus from a planet we have no evolutionary history with.

 

Yes - I would agree that we are less likely to contract a disease that affects plants only! Duh..........

 

So - what you are saying is "before we eat a chicken wing - we need to record the donor's (a certain species of chicken) double heilix pattern". Do you do that with a pizza slice?

[dcmike]

Never argue with an idiot, people watching may not be able to tell the difference

 

This depends largely on the popular opinion of who is the idiot!

[Thunderbird]

While what you say about the Native Americans is sadly true, we would be more likely to catch petunia wilt than catch a virus from a planet we have no evolutionary history with.

 

The worst case scenario is a virus or bacteria from mars, that infects all plants for the same reason you gave.... they have no defenses against it because they never coevolved with it. The photosynthetic process coming to complete halt, all life would crash, no escape....boom dead planet..:eek:.. :doh:

[Moontanman]

You guys are so smart I don't know why lowly me bothers to argue with you but I'll try in my own idiotic way. We share more than three billion years of co-evolution with every life form on earth. We use the same chemicals, the same DNA, the same processes, every life form on this planet is related to every other life form.

 

Life on Mars would be totally different, no reason at all to believe we would have anything but carbon and water in common, maybe not even that if some scientists are correct about the possibility of Hydrogen peroxide being likely to be a liquid on mars. So Why would you expect to catch anything on mars but a bad allergy to the dust? Do you really think that life has to use identical chemicals everywhere? We have constructed DNA with different nucleic acids from the four in use here. Get the idea? Petunias are practically our brothers compared to life that has evolved with complete Independence for several billion years:evil:

[Thunderbird]

Same Chemicals, same chemical reactions no matter where you go. Eating is eating, chemical energy is chemical energy. Hydrocarbons, proteins, sugars. A smorgasbord for any alien microbe. :doh::eek:

[Moontanman]

Same Chemicals, same chemical reactions no matter where you go. Eating is eating, chemical energy is chemical energy. Hydrocarbons, proteins, sugars. A smorgasbord for any alien microbe. :doh::eek:

 

Not from the stand point of viruses and probably not from the stand point of bacteria either. You have to have similar chemicals to digest each other just a few small changes and we or they would be about as nutritious as Styrofoam.

[Little Bang]

Moon, there is a slight possibility that life on Earth was delivered here via an asteroid impact from Mars.

[Moontanman]

Moon, there is a slight possibility that life on Earth was delivered here via an asteroid impact from Mars.

 

Yeah that was going to be my next point, (I plan my arguments in advance) we receive rocks from mars on a regular basis, if microbes from Mars were going to wipe us out they have been missing a lot of chances! Lets face it microbes from Mars are not high on the list of things to wipe us out. If indeed there are microbes on Mars they are unlikely to be pre-evolved to infect any earth life. Infection by viruses depends on lots of specific things inside a specific cell and the virus has to be able to exploit these things, very few viruses infect across species lines even less across family lines, even fewer across phyla, almost none across domains. I'm betting none across evolutionary trees on different planets. Bacteria have similar limitations, the reason microbes can infect the way small pox did when it wiped out the Native Americans (Mine and T-Birds people) wasn't due to the natives being different, it was because of the similarities. You will notice humans had to kill all the buffalo by hand, not by disease.

[dcmike]

Moontanman - you aparently have not heard of Vertical Transmission (from comets) of viruses and are missing my entire point. That is the whole premise of the native American analogy. Viruses do not need to co-evolve to infect - they mutate. It is the very fact that we DID NOT co-evolve that creates the danger. Co-evolving is what creates immunity. That is exactly why the Meso American Indians were almost totally anhilated by the time the Spaniards got back for their second trip. Check out the (thriving before the missionaries came) lost civilization of the Amazon.

 

Google the flu epidemic of 1918. It hit everywhere at the same time - even remote Eskimo villages that had no contact with the outside world - even each other. Viruses can live in the frozen water of comets, fall to Earth in the water content evaporated by the Sun's heat, infect birds in our higher strata and finally make their way to us . Many cosomologists believe WE are aliens - arriving in a similar fashion.

 

You have already lost the argument. Cut your losses, go home and lick your wounds!