Ahmabeliever Posted March 10, 2008 Report Posted March 10, 2008 Before I begin my initial thread... Two things. 1. Michealangelica - THANK YOU!!! The collation of information here in the TP section is outstanding! I am very grateful for what you are doing here. I hope my contributions in turn may add to the picture, help others, and of course, myself. 2. Steam is barely touched in this idea (as it scalds ;)) but steam knowledge could be very valuable with all these TP fires making charcoal to utilise it. Any steam engineers around here? Your time to shine has come again! OK, here's a sketchy outline. The Terra Beta... A stove the size of an outdoor brick home BBQ. Externally it resembles and functions like a large brick BBQ with hotplate, and brick chimney. Aesthetics are important to introduce technology, people are prissy. You could add a pizza oven too. The working parts. This is where I need to get a lot of bricks and play around with them to get it all to fit, and function. I'm working with a sketchup model but my comp lags badly once I get past 100 components (bricks). Terra Beta includes... Firepit, fuel entry, and ash retrieval.Long airways in to warm the air before it reaches the fire.Charcoal retort and outgassing for secondary burn. Can pre-heat gas too, if it helps?BBQ hotplate is the top of the retort.Boiler. With pressure valve, once correct pressure is met would want to harness this power to run a pump. Here's where I know the dots can be connected but am yet to do so, need input..... More 'parts' follow. Basically, my thoughts behind this/my approach is .... It's for everyone, but aimed at western countries - we're the ones making the mess, clean up our own backyards there's plenty of tropical research going on. Gas technology - a lot of farmers will put it in the too hard basket. And homeowners... I want people to be able to DIY even if they need one or two special parts delivered. So I'm sticking to fire and using the gas to boil water, it seems easier... (I know I know, steam is gas...) Power storage - if you're going green, a bank of batteries in every home isn't going to impress many. Use a water tower. It works for hydro-power (which is what we will end up with) and it will work for us. So, the rest of the parts. The easiest assembly of bits that utilise steam - then pump water. A water tower. A generator. A holding tank on ground level (or below). Imagine, if you will.... Fill retort and start fire. After a while gas begins to burn and hotplate is ready to cook on. You enjoy bbq while steam drives pump and pump pumps water from a reservoir up into your water tower. One 'BBQ' hopefully, can lift enough water for 2 or more days home supply. Water tower water runs down constantly, harnessing a small generator that powers your home. That's the basics. Could also leave the hotplate out and harness more heat, it depends what the sums are ie: How much water does it take to power an (average) house in this manner? How much wood fuel to send this volume of water up to the tower? This I figure is all to do with how to easily run a pump off steam. Steam is very powerful, and should do the job handily...?? Sure I've had plenty more thoughts on this, but that's the basic idea. Quote
Roadam Posted March 12, 2008 Report Posted March 12, 2008 Water tower for energy storage? I doubt it. Steam powered water pump? Even less likely. The problem is that steam engines are typically quite inefficient, say 10% for typical steam engine, about 30-40 percent for a turbine. And even if you drive the water up with this mechanical pump is bout 70% efficient and a little less when you let it down and drive a generator. So in fact you are only using bout 5% of the wood energy (having a turbine is costly). Its generally a better idea to somehow get a turbine or a stirling engine and drive generator directly. Quote
Ahmabeliever Posted March 12, 2008 Author Report Posted March 12, 2008 Water tower for energy storage? I doubt it. What is hydro power, if not this same principle for energy storage. A dam is just a big battery, a water tower a smaller version. And inefficient or not, harnessing the power instead of just burning the charcoal makes a lot of sense to me. If you have any idea how I can do this please chime in. Your doubts are duly noted ;) Been looking at steam engines lately, might take a wee trip out to the museum and see how many enthusiasts are still around these parts. 1 KA steam engine pulls a hundred odd 2 ton wagons loaded with goods up slight grades for hundreds of miles. Used to be my Dads job. I have no doubt steam will pump some water uphill, just how to do it 'efficiently'. Quote
Ahmabeliever Posted March 16, 2008 Author Report Posted March 16, 2008 OK. I've found wee steam engines, steam dredges (steam pump, that is!), steam engines designed for household power (standby power, but close to what I want already!) Some beautiful wee motors with unbelievable pulling power. I'm dead keen to hear from folks with ideas about this. I'm not interested in 'can't be done'. It can. Several problematic areas, all to do with safety around steam, and maintenance to keep safety high. Also interested in TP/steam power for greenhousing. Dream time... I think you could set up an orchard/fish farm/greenhouse/mushroom farm/TP generator. All running on each others wastes. One day this type of idea will be standard, and isolated mono-product farms will be history. There is, for those inclined, vast money to be made finding applications for industry trash. It's become very trendy to do so as well. Free materials, just add funding, knowledge, and initiative. Im about bored with waiting for science to tell us the 'secret of TP' which over 2 years ago they said would take 2 years..... What I see happening - Govts and Corporations will tie up TP in legal mumbo jumbo and all the pioneers will be shat upon. Govts and corporations will cash in, fuel will remain expensive in any form, and people will remain stuck in parkinsons law - spending as much or slightly more than they earn. JOB = just over broke, how they like us to be. Regulations will abound on steam, bio-gas, syngas, any form of fuel we can make for ourselves. Scaremongers (govt funded science) will publish lengthy reports on the dangers of these fuels and the neccessity for professional supervision. Govts will heed these reports well, for the greater good, and control fuel production, whilst sleeping with Mobil and others. Our own officiousness will be our undoing as 3rd world countries will freely power themselves up using many of the latest green techs, and we will be too busy making new laws to govern new power, justifying dinosaurs, waiting for science to green light things, and increasing our debts. I'll see how it pans out, I'll be most interested to read this again in 20 years. Quote
Turtle Posted March 16, 2008 Report Posted March 16, 2008 What is hydro power, if not this same principle for energy storage. A dam is just a big battery, a water tower a smaller version. And inefficient or not, harnessing the power instead of just burning the charcoal makes a lot of sense to me. ... The problem I think is that a water tower is a much much smaller version of a dam, and wheras the dam collects rainwater and runoff (essentially filled free by gravity), one has to expend energy to pump the water up into the tower. At 8 pounds/gallon, the expense & size of a water tower sufficient to drive a generator for any usable length of time seems unjustified. I do think a small water tower is a good idea for storing emergency water, as well as providing enough hydraulic head to use it with a hose for irrigation. Using 32 gallon plastic garbage cans on platforms that raise them just below the roof line, and diverting the gutter downspout to fill them is an idea I have muddled over, but as I rent I haven't the opportunity to build platforms, and my current landlkord frowns on me modifying the downspouts. I do keep a 32 gallon emergency water barrel outside. If your stove is a wood-gasifier retort, then you can use the heat or not for a number of things green. Putting a closed vessel full of wood over the fire, with a port to a condenser coil, turns the wood to charcoal and delivers wood gas. Then there is the obvious cooking. Or using the same setup as used for the woodgas, fill the vessel with unpotable water and make distilled water. That's all I got right now. :( :evil: Quote
Ahmabeliever Posted March 16, 2008 Author Report Posted March 16, 2008 Thanks for that reply. I think my problem with gas technology is that regulations don't allow the average Joe to install or maintain it. I also am phobic about it being explosive, but steam is gas, and highly volatile itself. Dry steam occupies sixteen hundred times the volume of the same weight of water at atmospheric pressure! There's more than enough steam explosions recorded... Why I think steam is overlooked is having heard my Father bemoan ever moving away from steam. He always maintained diesel engines had 'no grunt' and were poor imitations of steam. I've been reading... "Engines of this type (steam) turn fairly slowly. 600 rpm is not an unusual or "slow" turning speed. Don’t let the speed mislead you. 600 rpm in a steam engine isn’t comparable to 600 rpm in a gasoline engine. 600 rpm in a gas engine is an "idle speed" that produces very little torque (or twisting force). A steam engine can produce maximum torque at almost 0 rpm. If you have ever seen an old 10 to 16 horsepower steam tractor at a "tractor pull" pulling against our modern 400+ horsepower gas engines, you will understand. The steam tractor always wins." Torque is cheap :evil: Steam never left industry. It just became immobile. "Steam engines are cheaper, simpler, quieter, and more reliable than many other kinds of engine. But a steam engine needs large quantities of water, in addition to fuel and all the parts it has in common with a gas-powered engine. As a result the power-to-weight ratio of steam engines (plus supplies) is low. That's why we rarely see steam engines used in applications where the weight matters" No steam jets :doh: But then I see this.... :( http://www.tinypower.com/images/products/air.jpg Half model of an early 1900s three-cylinder airplane steam engine in the Warner Robins Air Force Museum in Warner Robins, Georgia. Anyhoo, for stationary applications, I think steam has much merit, and was another industry, like the wood chemical industry, overshadowed by the arrival of petrochemicals. I will be talking to practising steam engineers in the near future and see what they make of it. I'm also interested in seeing how simply a woodgas unit could be made, ie gas you can use safely without corroding parts - clean.... How much equipment needed to use this for fuel, wouldn't every wood have different chemicals that may need addressing/scrubbing? Quote
Turtle Posted March 16, 2008 Report Posted March 16, 2008 Thanks for that reply. I think my problem with gas technology is that regulations don't allow the average Joe to install or maintain it. ..."Steam engines are cheaper, simpler, quieter, and more reliable than many other kinds of engine. But a steam engine needs large quantities of water, in addition to fuel and all the parts it has in common with a gas-powered engine. As a result the power-to-weight ratio of steam engines (plus supplies) is low. That's why we rarely see steam engines used in applications where the weight matters"...I'm also interested in seeing how simply a woodgas unit could be made, ie gas you can use safely without corroding parts - clean.... How much equipment needed to use this for fuel, wouldn't every wood have different chemicals that may need addressing/scrubbing? I don't know about modern steam engines, but the old ones took a lot of oil & oiling for moving parts; not sure if that's a drawback for you or not. You can power any gasoline internal combustion engine with woodgas.Here's a video & link you might find helpful & fun: >> Wood gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia YouTube - Wood gas car http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4n_OaCIQ-s freeztar 1 Quote
Ahmabeliever Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Posted March 17, 2008 I really liked the car. I followed the address at the end of the clip and found journals of the cars journeys. It has run into many complications none of them major, just prototype stuff really. This, from Wikipedia I really liked... "Staged gasifiers, where pyrolysis and gasification occur separately (instead of in the same reaction zone as was the case in e.g. the WWII gasifiers) can be engineered to produce essentially tar-free gas (<1 mg/m³)." So, if it's engineered right, it's all go! I would love a car like that, still want a steam whistle on it though, just to piss off the neighbours. Seems pyrolysis is not only the best for TP, it's also the cleanest way to do it. And the rest of the tars must be somewhere aka resins in the charcoal. I have a free tp supply, well, the wood. I have large leaved evergreen natives that I topped about a year ago to let light in. The regrowth is 2-4 cm thick sticks 3 - 4 metres in length. Soon, the largest can be taken and cut into chunks with pruners, the smaller allowed to 'grow to size' (diameter required). A perpetual supply provided I look after the trees. Prunings are a great size for tp, I think smaller compostables should be just that, compost, various stick sizes for char, and wood to build with... Increases income streams for orchardists, forestry, basically anyone with trees requiring maintenance. Quote
Turtle Posted March 17, 2008 Report Posted March 17, 2008 I really liked the car. I followed the address at the end of the clip and found journals of the cars journeys. It has run into many complications none of them major, just prototype stuff really. This, from Wikipedia I really liked... "Staged gasifiers, where pyrolysis and gasification occur separately (instead of in the same reaction zone as was the case in e.g. the WWII gasifiers) can be engineered to produce essentially tar-free gas (<1 mg/m³)." So, if it's engineered right, it's all go! I would love a car like that, still want a steam whistle on it though, just to piss off the neighbours. ... The staged version is what I meant in refernce to an addition to your brick stove. Sounds like some filtering is in order, but I didn't find any specifics on that. I don't see an advantage to brick, and a disadvantage is no portability. An all metal multi-function outfit could go in the bed of a truck to run it, or in the yard to make charcoal or power a gas engine running a generator. You can use the electricity to power a siren to alert the neighbors to a coming steam whistle. :doh::evil::( Here's another interesting video that refers to a FEMA design plan. If you search the YouTube site for 'wood gas', you find dozens if not hundreds of vids. >> YouTube - Gasifier Stove http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBsG32n_8oc&feature=related Quote
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