On the cusp

[paigetheoracle]

Lying in bed the other day, I caught a sensation that set off a series of insights into similar conditions. Here is the list:-

 

Eyelid fluttering, when on the verge of sleep/waking up

Tinnitus ear flapping sound, when on the verge of unconsciousness

Heart fibrillation, when contemplating action

Juddering of plane on take-off

Vibration

Stuttering

Hiccups

Gurgling of drains (air/ water alternation)

Tickly throat

Pulsar

Rapid panting after running

Blood pulsing through veins

 

All of these states/ conditions seem to occur (and more?) on the cusp of slipping between two states or stages of being. I call this Threshold Phenomena/ Two Worlds Exchange.

 

My question is 'Has anyone else noticed this phenomena and made the same connection and noticed other examples or am I the only person to cognite on it?

[paigetheoracle]

I also call this The Accumulation/ Discharge Cycle or bound matter/energy release (dispersed and concentrated states). It's like a gas cylinder or a can of worms/ rubber bands - open it up and the contents expand to fill a newer and larger space, moving outwards as it does. This falls in with my 'SAD isn't it?' thread because this explains seeds as coiled and contracted matter that explodes outwards under the right conditions for growth.

 

This connection with this thread is that Threshold Phenomena are like trains rumbling into and out of a station and our perception is of them shrinking to fit a smaller space or expanding to fit a larger one, and the displacement, I believe, leads to awareness/perception of an exchange going on (something going in to replace something coming out: I believe the universe doesn't so much 'change' as 'ex-change' bits and pieces of itself and like that 'Eureka!' moment, our awareness can catch sight of this change, if we're very lucky, very still and very observant).:hihi:

[Thunderbird]

The vibratory or effect of not feeling your body is the point were you can transition out of body. I takes practice. First of all you have to become aware when you reach this state, not easy. Then you need to gently roll out of you body, again not easy, you will tend to activate a muscle responce and the body will wake up. If you can gently extract yourself by a light feeling of letting go of the phisical body you will find your self OOB!

[CraigD]

My question is 'Has anyone else noticed this phenomena and made the same connection and noticed other examples or am I the only person to cognite on it?

John Lilly wrote a lot about a roaring sound accompanying changes in states of consciousness in “The Centre of the Cyclone” and “The Mind of the Dolphin”.

 

I noticed the sensation Lilly describes both before and after reading his books, not only as a disembodied roar, as he describes it, but sometimes as a (rather alarming) sensation seeming to travel over my skin, similar to the sensation one has when one get dangerously close of a source of heat, and one’s head and body hair begins to singe. (accompanied )

 

I don’t think these sensations are accurate perceptions of objective reality.

 

The “roaring threshold” Lilly reports, for instance, I think is due to opening ones Eustachian tubes while ones sense of sound is distorted, a hunch that seemed confirmed by my ability to control the sensation by consciously opening and closing them via the “clearing your ears” maneuver most people know how to do to relieve discomfort when changing altitude.

The vibratory or effect of not feeling your body is the point were you can transition out of body. I takes practice. First of all you have to become aware when you reach this state, not easy. Then you need to gently roll out of you body, again not easy, you will tend to activate a muscle responce and the body will wake back up. If you can gently extract yourself by a light feeling of letting go of the phisical body you will find your self OOB!

Though I practiced the technique of finding and looking at my sleeping body in dreams, I’ve never experienced the sensation of “rolling out of my body” while dreaming, but always found myself already dreaming, and had to make my way to where I found my sleeping body.

 

I did hear of and successfully reproduce several times a (fairly complicated, and in many jurisdictions, illegal) technique for producing “looking down on yourself” OBEs while awake. I was interested at the time in determining if the perception was objectively, physically real – that is, when OOB, is one actually perceiving objective external reality from a “locus” other than the usual “behind the eyes” – so made many attempts to read numbers from cards placed (with proper blinding) on high ledges. Though I found it very hard to remember to look for a card while in such a strange state of mind, I did manage it, with negative results: in every case, I either got the numbers wrong, couldn’t find the card or read the numbers, found objectively unreal objects in their places, or, in one startling case, found a hole leading into the inside of a freestanding wall where the ledge bearing the card was, as if someone had removed the ceramic tile from its top.

 

This led me to the conclusion that OBEs are imaginative experiences, like ordinary dreaming, not techniques that could be employed usefully for things like reading hard-to-see serial numbers from the insides of PC cases without first taking them off, or sending and receiving messages to and from distant friends. In all of the literature I’ve reviewed, no well-controlled experiment has supported any other conclusion.

[Thunderbird]

John Lilly wrote a lot about a roaring sound accompanying changes in states of consciousness in “The Centre of the Cyclone” and “The Mind of the Dolphin”.

 

I noticed the sensation Lilly describes both before and after reading his books, not only as a disembodied roar, as he describes it, but sometimes as a (rather alarming) sensation seeming to travel over my skin, similar to the sensation one has when one get dangerously close of a source of heat, and one’s head and body hair begins to singe. (accompanied )

 

I don’t think these sensations are accurate perceptions of objective reality.

 

The “roaring threshold” Lilly reports, for instance, I think is due to opening ones Eustachian tubes while ones sense of sound is distorted, a hunch that seemed confirmed by my ability to control the sensation by consciously opening and closing them via the “clearing your ears” maneuver most people know how to do to relieve discomfort when changing altitude.Though I practiced the technique of finding and looking at my sleeping body in dreams, I’ve never experienced the sensation of “rolling out of my body” while dreaming, but always found myself already dreaming, and had to make my way to where I found my sleeping body.

 

I did hear of and successfully reproduce several times a (fairly complicated, and in many jurisdictions, illegal) technique for producing “looking down on yourself” OBEs while awake. I was interested at the time in determining if the perception was objectively, physically real – that is, when OOB, is one actually perceiving objective external reality from a “locus” other than the usual “behind the eyes” – so made many attempts to read numbers from cards placed (with proper blinding) on high ledges. Though I found it very hard to remember to look for a card while in such a strange state of mind, I did manage it, with negative results: in every case, I either got the numbers wrong, couldn’t find the card or read the numbers, found objectively unreal objects in their places, or, in one startling case, found a hole leading into the inside of a freestanding wall where the ledge bearing the card was, as if someone had removed the ceramic tile from its top.

 

This led me to the conclusion that OBEs are imaginative experiences, like ordinary dreaming, not techniques that could be employed usefully for things like reading hard-to-see serial numbers from the insides of PC cases without first taking them off, or sending and receiving messages to and from distant friends. In all of the literature I’ve reviewed, no well-controlled experiment has supported any other conclusion.

First thing is I never go out of body from a dream state. You are fully awake. Secondly this can only be experienced from the inside and cannot be quantified if you have not experienced it first hand. It is nothing at all like dreaming. I have done lucid dreaming, they are not the same state, but separate states. Anyone that has experience with oob can tell you that.

 

I have had these experiences since childhood, when I read others accounts of there experiences, one thing is was certain is that these experiences are very very specific to this state.

 

If you have not had an oob there is no context to relate to.

 

experiances like looking though your eyelids across the room fully awake. Seeing your arm dead asleep one place, a moving your oob arm around, even though the wall feeling sawdust on the cross beams though the dry wall. This is totally in the realm of experience Craig.

[Thunderbird]

I don’t think these sensations are accurate perceptions of objective reality.

 

On thing is for sure when you spend enough time OOB it may be a separate reality, But it is still an objective reality in that there are alternate set of rules, but consistent rules all the same. Rules that govern movement perception, physics, etc...

[freeztar]

but consistent rules all the same. Rules that govern movement perception, physics, etc...

 

Can you elaborate?

What sort of consistent rules govern the physics of OOB objective reality?

[CraigD]

On thing is for sure when you spend enough time OOB it may be a separate reality, But it is still an objective reality in that there are alternate set of rules, but consistent rules all the same. Rules that govern movement perception, physics, etc...

This claim – that the “separate realities” described by various writers and magickal practitioners are objectively real – is one I spent years attempting to validate, largely because so many people whose company I greatly enjoyed believed it to be true. Like everyone who’s conducted a documented, well-controlled experiment to do so, I failed.

 

An essential feature of objective reality, and a principle one that can be used to distinguish it from “realities” that most people agree are not objective, such as ordinary dreams, either lucid or illucid, is its ability to communicate information between individuals. For example, in ordinary, consensual reality, we effect object outside ourselves to communicate with one another – writing notes on paper, noteboards, walls, etc, or, as we’re doing now, microscopically altering the ferromagnetic surfaces of spinning platters on hypography’s servers’ disk drives to exchange posts. An essential feature of this is that regardless of who “makes the marks”, anyone can read them, with, barring accidents (eg; your dog eating you letter, a disk drive crash) effectively 100% accuracy. This works regardless of who observes and documents it, or how often they or others repeat the experiment. A “skeptic” will confirm it as readily as a believer, as will a rigorously controlled experiment or ordinary, casual use.

 

In no well-controlled, repeated experiment, has such an ordinary test of objectivity been successfully performed in a “non-ordinary reality”. Despite claims by various people – from traditional mystics to “psychic warfare experts” in the intelligence communities of major world powers – no one has ever successfully passes the smallest amount of data with greater accuracy than predicted by chance.

 

One can argue that no two individuals can share the same non-ordinary reality (though most writers of whom I’m aware, such as Castaneda, explicitly deny this), or that all non-ordinary realities are “fluidic”, in a way that expressly prevents the transmission of data, or that data from different realities are somehow incompatibly, but a far simpler explanation is that these non-ordinary realities exist entirely within the minds of their observers.

[REASON]

I was born at 10:10 pm on the night of July 22. I am told that means I am on the cusp of Cancer and Leo. :phones:

 

IMHO, any perceived out of body experience is nothing more than a cognitive illusion.

[Thunderbird]

but a far simpler explanation is that these non-ordinary realities exist entirely within the minds of their observers.

 

 

 

I agree, but so is any reality. Can’t you see your fundamental assumption is flawed here? They exist; using Castanadian terminology as an assemblage point of perception within us. An important point I need to make here is that my child hood was one of living in the natural world. Spending time alone in the streams and woods studying animals, farming in the fields. I begin to experience this separate reality very young . I lived it in my childhood, and kept it as memories. Many books helped later on by providing an understanding of these experiences and terminologies enabling me construct a paradigm for a world that most forget, or do not take time to construct. This construct BTW has been around for thousands of years, also as I stated in another thread I had an experience when I was eleven that open me up to these non ordinary realities. These types of encounters happened to our ancestors, and were recognized in those times as serving a propose. The realization that there is more to the world than just immediate needs.

 

These worlds are real but ultimate mysteries, as we have seen in the field of quantum mechanics. Sometimes things happen for reasons beyond our understanding, and the only thing that we should expect is an opening of our perception. This opening is important, we see though it

It enables us to drop the map and look around. Modern man does not seek this state usually, like you, he expects nice tidy explanations, it is your intent to find nice tidy explanations that can be agreed on. It is a pity but that is all your intent will allow.

Let me be clear these practices will not work in reductionist environment. They well up from deep within our perception, it is a realm of perspective, experience, and moreover extremely hard to download into some kind of useful “modern paradigm” that one can referenced. In my experience this exploration takes the sobriety of the hunter, the eye of an artist, and the curiosity of a child. Keep in mind ones nature is key to your intent, if you intend or expect to be seen by your fellow man as someone who has gone beyond to see something that they have not you will fail. I too have had friends that thought they were going to do magic of some kind, they were just wasting time and energy on foolish notions promoted by mass media. The only thing that I saw on the mass media close to this was Colombo, there was a character I could admire from the mass media.

 

If they did succeed in experiencing a world separate from their fellow man they would have realized early on that any actual success would have been personal, and if they did make it that far, they would also find out they no longer found any value in it, so goes intent. To seek freedom of perception can be a more conducive intent to intent, thus making it a self organizing and spontaneous system. The only way this is possible is to give up the goal of capturing what you see. This is the intent of an animal, not a human spirit.

[Thunderbird]

I was born at 10:10 pm on the night of July 22. I am told that means I am on the cusp of Cancer and Leo. :hihi:

 

IMHO, any perceived out of body experience is nothing more than a cognitive illusion.

 

Define "cognitive illusion."

[Thunderbird]

Can you elaborate?

What sort of consistent rules govern the physics of OOB objective reality?

 

 

 

When you move it is about focusing and concentration, and sobriety, you can only sustain this for a period of time. One thing for sure is you are not dreaming, you can however lapse into a dream state. just as you can daydream in a waken state. The focus needs to be held on the surroundings.

The out of body world does not seem to rely on reflective light. objects seem to have their own substance that you perceive. This makes sense since, you are not using your normal eyeballs. What is even more strange than being out of body is being partially out of body. Several times in my life I have woken completely up, with my body still dead asleep. You can see right though your eyelids, and what is weirder than that, I could see my out from my head and see my chest arms and legs, but feel an arm or leg disengaged from my physical body. When you have had these experiences and then read others accounts of the same type you realize they or more normal than you once thought. I could at times, when i remembered to try, feel the texture of the bed or couch, though the couch, touch the wall. One instance I open my eyes with out waking up my physical eyes, not an easy thing to do, and actually saw my out physical eyes in an out of body state and saw my oob arm above my physical arm. it was partially transparent with what looked like myriads of tiny soap bubbles circulating around in it.

[REASON]

Define "cognitive illusion."

 

Fair request.

 

How about - Mental deception, erroneous perception, false impression, or imaginary.

[Thunderbird]

Fair request.

 

How about - Mental deception, erroneous perception, false impression, or imaginary.

 

Then you would say that any experience that is not verifiable by you personally, must be delusional.

[REASON]

Then you would say that any experience that is not verifiable by you personally, must be delusional.

 

Why of course not. :hihi:

 

I'm just talking about what is likely to be reality versus what can be perceived to be reality. I believe our minds are amazing, highly complex organs producing thoughts and feelings we are not always able to completely comprehend, and I feel that we spend much of our lives trying to reconcile our thoughts in an effort to distinguish that which is real, and that which we perceive to be real. We don't always know the difference. This is an important reason why we employ the tools of science.

 

What you are asking us (those in the world who may read this) to consider is whether our consciousness can exist apart, or detached, from our brains. Since I am settled in my belief that consciousness requires a functioning brain, the notion of a conscious out of body experience is one that is not consistent with reality, but rather conceptual.

 

It is not my intention to appear judgemental of your individual experiences and your perception of what they have meant to you. I believe I have had similar sensations as you describe, but I have tended to ascribe them to figments of my imagination. You may find this to be closed minded, but it is consistent with my perception of reality.

[Thunderbird]

Why of course not. :hihi:

 

I'm just talking about what is likely to be reality versus what can be perceived to be reality

These experiences are apart of my reality. do you know that our reality is based first on our memory rather than perception. What can you derive from this.

 

 

I believe our minds are amazing, highly complex organs producing thoughts and feelings we are not always able to completely comprehend, and I feel that we spend much of our lives trying to reconcile our thoughts in an effort to distinguish that which is real, and that which we perceive to be real. We don't always know the difference. This is an important reason why we employ the tools of science.

Do you keep up with the latest discoveries in science on the nature of conciseness and quantum physics, or even the older ones like the Heisenberg principle. Particle/waves dualities, superposition of particles. If one particle can be in two places at once, or a photon can be both a wave and a particle, then why not our bodies and minds.

 

 

What you are asking us (those in the world who may read this) to consider is whether our consciousness can exist apart, or detached, from our brains. Since I am settled in my belief that consciousness requires a functioning brain, the notion of a conscious out of body experience is one that is not consistent with reality, but rather conceptual.

 

These statements are presumptive, what is conciseness ? Were is it located in the biological system? What is reality? This is the same as a religious person talking about god. These are not objects... these are concepts that are only defined by experiences.

 

 

 

It is not my intention to appear judgemental of your individual experiences and your perception of what they have meant to you.

Sorry that's complete BS... BTW its ok to be Judgmental. My intent is to be judgmental, on your judgments of things you no not of. My concern and intent is to be honest with myself and others.

 

 

 

I believe I have had similar sensations as you describe, but I have tended to ascribe them to figments of my imagination. You may find this to be closed minded, but it is consistent with my perception of reality.

 

Your reality is a figment of your imagination, and so is mine.;)

[REASON]

Your reality is a figment of your imagination, and so is mine.:hihi:

 

So then you agree with me.