"God Bless America!"

[Queso]

i have a question.

whenever i accidently get into arguements with religious believers, they always tell me...

"there is biblical proof"

what EXACTLY is that??

from what i understand, isn't it just a bunch of documented stories passed down from generation to generation?

it's like that game telephone, ever played it?

a bunch of kids sit around in a circle. one kid tells a sentence to the kid next to him, and they pass it on in a circle. and once the sentence gets to the end of the kids, it's completely mangled.

every kid represents a generation.

the sentence represents the truth, or whatever it was in the first place.

but seriously, what "biblical proof" do they have? this has always boggled my mind.

[Fishteacher73]

Many of religion's early tennets wre based on sanitaion and health issues. Many of the "taboos" involved potentially harmful actions (food poisoning, etc.). The use of an all powerful god figure I think was useful in helping re-inforce these ideals. Just as we say today, "Wait until your father gets home!" , they used god/s as a dominant enforcer of the rules. Much of the backbone of many religions is basically the same, "Don't be a dick to your neighbor". As a general whole these are not bad ideals. The problem stems from when people highjack this vehicle of persuasion and use it for their own ends; ie devine right, the crusades, send me your money to get into heaven, etc.

 

There are many religions (many are Buddhist based) that take religion as a philosophyas opposed to a rigid system. The "religion" is a path to gain enlightement. Many look at other attempts as incorrect, not worng. Just as it would be incorrect to forget to carry-over in a addition problem, not a mortal sin. The believer has just chosen an incorect path.

 

I say this not to promote religion (Its not my cup of tea either), but to look at how and why much of the early teachings were the way they were. A look at the practical side, and not so much as the "God farted on the 4th day and there was light" stuff.

[pgrmdave]

Show us ANYTHING that religion has EVER done

 

FT - you know the fallacy in this argument - religion has NEVER done anything, any more than atheism has ever done anything. People do things, not belief systems.

[pgrmdave]

And of course religion justifies more bad than atheism does. Atheism cannot support anything, as it is a lack of belief, not a belief itself.

[Fishteacher73]

Atheism justifies nothing, neither good nor bad. Religion has bee nused to justify just about anything someone could do at one point in time or another.

[Aquagem]

Show us an example of ANYTHING in which religion has a more positive outcome than non-religion.

 

I can't resist this one.

 

Religion is masterful and unparalleled in its ability to make us feel good about ourselves because there's somebody upstairs who just thinks we're ducky, no matter how badly we screw things up. Science, with its devotion to facing the truth, shrieks, "You're blowing it! You're melting the polar ice cap! You're driving life to extinction! You're overpopulating the planet!" Not at all good for soothing those uncomfortable thoughts that you really should be doing something about these problems. But religion -- religion is just MADE for that kind of thing.

[Freethinker]

FT - you know the fallacy in this argument - religion has NEVER done anything, any more than atheism has ever done anything. People do things, not belief systems.

OK, perhaps I should rephrase it. But it really is difficult because so many people want to play games with words like "religion". As in "I believe in Christ, but not religion". Thus claiming that being a Christian is not following a religion. Absurd I know, but getting more common. So trying to frame the question (as you demonstrate) is very difficult. But here goes.

 

Show us any example of a proactive effort by an individual or group which has resulted in a net positive gain or advancement to society and/ or the human race in areas such as general knowledge, scientific or medical science, longevity, comfort, social interaction, societal diversity, general human advancement , ... which can be shown to be primarily driven by specific religious motivation based on a specific religious structure, dogma and/ or source of revelation, which can not be shown to be done more effectively in a Secular fashion and does not conflict with other specific religious structure, dogma or source of revelation of that same religious orientation.

 

Does this help cover it?

[Freethinker]

And of course religion justifies more bad than atheism does. Atheism cannot support anything, as it is a lack of belief, not a belief itself.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg,

[Freethinker]

Atheism justifies nothing, neither good nor bad. Religion has bee nused to justify just about anything someone could do at one point in time or another.

The trick is showing that in fact the religious tenets of the person is actually the motivating factor. That they did not predetermin, based on Secular tenets, what they would do. And then alter find ways to credit their religious leanings. And to do so in contradiction to actual tenets of that religion.

[Freethinker]

I can't resist this one.

 

Religion is masterful and unparalleled in its ability to make us feel good about ourselves

Please show us factual data to support this claim.

 

The data I have shows this to be wrong.

[motherengine]

Show us any example of a proactive effort by an individual or group which has resulted in a net positive gain or advancement to society and/ or the human race in areas such as general knowledge, scientific or medical science, longevity, comfort, social interaction, societal diversity, general human advancement , ... which can be shown to be primarily driven by specific religious motivation based on a specific religious structure, dogma and/ or source of revelation, which can not be shown to be done more effectively in a Secular fashion and does not conflict with other specific religious structure, dogma or source of revelation of that same religious orientation.

 

doesn't all of this apply to the idea that science is superior to religion socially. through the use of science people live longer and far more comfortable lives yes. through the use of science the human population is growing out of control [the lives saved by immunization far out weigh those prevented by contraceptives] and weapons exist that jeopardize all human existance. not that i don't i enjoy flushing my waste away at the flip of a switch and the avalibility of water and medicine. i am just not ready to worship at the alter of scientific methodology because i have been raised to be reliant on some of its results. technology has given rise to escapist fantasy to distract the sheep from revolution but this is just a crass substitute for religious poetics. you may not like religion personally and you may think science is the best thing going but this is an OPINION not a fact. the fact is that science (indirectly or directly the end result is the same) is responsible for more destruction and varied sufferance than a thousand religions could be misinterpreted to inspire. compare those abused at the hands of the inquisitions to those abused by nazi doctors during ww3 and tell me exactly what the differance is. i have no real issue with the scientific method or with religious text but arrogance and violence can be found in the practitioners of both. whether it be tomas torquemada or eduard wirths the end result is the same. attack religion all you want but its need has kept it alive and will continue to do so. if what you hate is ignorance than be prepared to acknowledge scientists as well as clergymen for the problem lies in human nature not in books or beliefs.

[Freethinker]

I can't resist this one.

 

Religion is masterful and unparalleled in its ability to make us feel good about ourselves

Please show us factual data to support this claim.

 

The data I have shows this to be wrong.

I won't bother waiting. But I will live up to my side. I will provide some of the data I referred to:

 

Argyle and Beit-Hallahmi ("The Psychology of Religious Belief")- religion fosters greater authoritarianism, dogmatism, suggestability, dependance, inadequecy and anxiety.

 

C.D. Batson & W.L. Ventis ("The Religious Experience: A Social- Psychological Religion" Oxford University Press)- "the relationship between religious involvement and mental health is negative rather than positive."

 

J.E. Dittes (The Psychology of Religion" Addison Wesley)- religion is associated with a weak and constricted ego.

 

L.B. Brown ("The Psychology of Religious Belief")- confidence about religion correlates with conservatism, dogmatism and authoritarianism.

[Freethinker]

doesn't all of this apply to the idea that science is superior to religion socially.

Depends on how you define "science". "Science" is a process. One that is based on logical reasoning of verifyable data. As such yes it is a superior approach.

through the use of science people live longer and far more comfortable lives yes. through the use of science the human population is growing out of control [the lives saved by immunization far out weigh those prevented by contraceptives]

Nice start, then you just start making it up as you go. The nmore Secular the nation, the greater level of population control you will find. The more religious the population, the higher the preganacy rate. Third world coountries which are heavily infested by religious missionaries that enforce intentional ignorance of birth control have the highest population growth rate.

 

It is RELIGIOUS influences that are causing the uncontrolled population growth. And in geography that can least handle it, but is most strangled by religious influence. Look at Latin America!

and weapons exist that jeopardize all human existance.

Yes and built and under the control of those that openly state a Crusade or fatwa.

not that i don't i enjoy flushing my waste away at the flip of a switch and the avalibility of water and medicine. i am just not ready to worship at the alter of scientific methodology

Simple minded bifurcation. Only a religious addiction would promote the concept of a need for worshipping something. Openminded, er, .. Freethinkers, do not have that problem.

you may not like religion personally and you may think science is the best thing going but this is an OPINION not a fact.

Empty claims, easy to make, but lets see you stand behind it. Where should we start the comparison and find which side FACT is on? Let's see which side offers unsupportable opinion and which has facts behind it.

the fact is that science (indirectly or directly the end result is the same) is responsible for more destruction and varied sufferance than a thousand religions could be misinterpreted to inspire.

I see, so when religious superstition casued a reduction in cats, which increased the rat population and thus fleas, and poof the plague, when Science came along with a solution religion failed to provide, after religion caused it and could not solve it at all, it was still better for society that religion then tried to stop the scientific solution from being implemented because it would interefer with it's god's will.

compare those abused at the hands of the inquisitions to those abused by nazi doctors during ww3 and tell me exactly what the differance is.

Oh, you mean the ones that wore "Gott mitt uns" (God is with us) belt buckles? (And I believe it was WW2, not 3) The one's whose leader, Hitler, wrote “(man )has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.” and "By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord,"

[lindagarrette]

 

It is RELIGIOUS influences that are causing the uncontrolled population growth. And in geography that can least handle it, but is most strangled by religious influence. Look at Latin America!

 

Overpopulation is caused by poverty. It is not the problem one heralded by Paul Erlich in 1968. The current worry is aging of the population, more people needing more care longer. That's caused by technological progress.

[whoa182]

Im really starting to hate the world " god " its said so much these days and im thinking to myself... :D I dont know what to think, I also dont like " God bless america "

 

I wish this whole GOD thing would just GO AWAY

 

* cries..

 

is the whole human race delusional!! We may aswell believe in tooth fairys and santa clause too... they are just as real as god lol

 

Sorry for my :)

[Freethinker]

Overpopulation is caused by poverty.

Yes and poverty can easily been shown to be part of the religious mentality, specifically Christian. The specific promotion of sheep following their religios authority and relgating their worldly possessions to their god. Or more accurately to the self proclaimed representitive authorities of their supposed god. The bible flatly states that it is easier to get a camel tru the eye of a needle than a rich person getting to heaven. And it's Jesus stated that his followers were to sell everything and give the money away. The very beginning of the bible spends a lot of time explaining how it's followers should be willing to give up everything, including killing their own children, if it's god so declares. Lots of sacrifice of each's best (crop, cattle, ...).

 

Of course we find few claimed Christians that follow these parts of the bible.

 

But poverty of the masses while tithing to authority has long been a well ingrained Christian tradition. We all have heard how much better it is to suffer on earth to reach heaven.

The current worry is aging of the population, more people needing more care longer. That's caused by technological progress.

But the progress of technology has not just increased life span, but it has increased PRODUCTIVE life span. The ability to be a productive member of society has increased more than just pure life span has.

 

If technology has had a potentially negative affect on the productivity of the population, it has been more from increasing the longevity of those with more extreme handicaps.

[Freethinker]

Im really starting to hate the world " god " its said so much these days and im thinking to myself...

is the whole human race delusional!! We may aswell believe in tooth fairys and santa clause too... they are just as real as god lol

You are probably a US citizen. Most other parts of the world do not have the same % of delisional Christians. It is more the US population than the whole human race.