New idea about UFO's!

[Moontanman]

I have often puzzled about the existence of UFO's, not because I am a true believer but because It's difficult for me to believe all those people could be liars or even totally mislead by a natural object. Even the sceptics often make huge blunders when trying to debunk a sighting. I like the statement that what the person actually saw was a meteor or comet. :eek_big: How can some who is seriously investigating a sighting actually say that the strange lights in the sky that were observed could be a comet?:doh: when was the last time any of you actually saw a comet go across the sky in just a few seconds or minutes?:doh: it makes me think that the debunkers are more interested in making the person believe they didn't see anything than they are about real data. so here goes with my hypothesis:hihi:

 

Yeah, I know how can there be a new idea, well here is mine, at least I hope it's new, it is new to me. I have read many times, so many times I really cannot remember who first thought of it, that even with our current level of technology we could in about 250,000 years occupy pretty much the entire galaxy. This lead to the question if there are aliens then why aren't they already here occupying earth? What "if" they are already here, colonizing the solar system possibly thousands of years ago with orbiting colonies. Small orbiting colonies could number in the hundreds or even thousands and we would never be the wiser. If we decide to colonize space terra forming would take far too long to be really practical but orbiting O'Neill type colonies could be made now. Large orbiting colonies could even make the jump to nearby stars. If another civilization was colonizing space but not the planets. They could easily hide from us and still manage to visit us routinely but not have to travel back and forth from another star.

 

This would easily explain several discrepancies that have been pointed out for the existence of UFO's.

 

First, probably my personal favorite idea as to why there are no aliens visiting earth is that star travel is so difficult that for aliens to mount even a small fraction of the number of visits that UFO reports would indicate it would take an effort much bigger than all the effort put into WW 2. If they already occupy hundreds or thousands of orbiting colonies then they could mount such an effort easily.

 

Second, why would aliens be interested in us at all? If they come from a distant star every time they visit then I wouldn't expect to ever see aliens or their craft. But if they already live in our solar system then the rise of a space fairing civilization would be very interesting to them. Their very existence might depend on how they deal with us. So checking us out on a regular basis would be necessary.

 

Third, some people think that ancient legends indicate that the gods of antiquity are really aliens that were trying to manipulate us in certain ways. Of course the why would they do that comes back into play. If they were star travelers with technology so advanced they could travel faster than light then as before I wouldn't expect this to be true. But if they are already living in our solar system then the idea to manipulate us over the centuries could be experiments to see how we can be controlled.

 

Fourth, If they made the effort to star travel then why don't they occupy the Earth? If they are indeed a civilization of orbiting colonies they would have no use for planets. This would also go along with the idea that visiting an alien planet would be dangerous due to possible disease or chemical poisons or allergens we might run into on an alien planet. Even allergens could bar humans from ever visiting a alien planet much less colonizing it.

 

I won't go any farther with this so others can voice their opinions of the possibilities. It just makes better sense to think of any aliens we might encounter would be from much closer than hundreds or even several light years away.

[Tolouse]

i'm to deny that i am a sleeper alien cell

 

jk

 

but there is always that possibility

[Moontanman]

i'm to deny that i am a sleeper alien cell

 

jk

 

but there is always that possibility

 

Always good to know "they're here!" Now how about how we could know? Give me a break.

[Tolouse]

there is always Area 51

 

now, i don't know if it is just a cover-up or not

 

but there is pretty good evidence that there is something out there

 

that's why i mentioned that it could be a pretty good possibility

[Moontanman]

there is always Area 51

 

now, i don't know if it is just a cover-up or not

 

but there is pretty good evidence that there is something out there

 

that's why i mentioned that it could be a pretty good possibility

 

Exactly what do you think is being covered up at area 51 and can you back this contention up? Area 51 gets blamed for so much and so far every one fo those contentions has been either disproved or turned out to be US secret aircraft. Area 51 is a dead horse, it would take some really good evidence to beat it back to life!

[Tolouse]

there is always that possibility lies beyond what we can see

 

i mean, the universe is one gigantic place

 

i doubt we're the only ones drifting through it

 

but unless we speed up technology, we'll never know

 

so, the big question is who or what is out there?

[Moontanman]

there is always that possibility lies beyond what we can see

 

i mean, the universe is one gigantic place

 

i doubt we're the only ones drifting through it

 

but unless we speed up technology, we'll never know

 

so, the big question is who or what is out there?

 

Yes, there are always possibilities but some are more likely than others. Some would say there are no aliens near the Earth because Star travel is too difficult. I was trying to propose a possibility that would take away that stumbling block. The wraith of debunkers and true believers is at totally opposite ends of the spectrum from each other. The truth often lies somewhere in between such extremes. If indeed we would be able to colonize the galaxy in such a short period of time with our current technology then why hasn't someone else already done it? If they have why haven't they settled on the earth? If they are here how could we detect them? No one with an idea of reality would think aliens are walking among us or breeding with us. But that doesn't mean they might not be interested. Why would they be interested is a better question and if they occupy the space around the solar system that would be a powerful reason for them to be interested.

[HydrogenBond]

The term UFO is unidentified flying object. So if an object is flying and we can't identify it, it is a UFO. People see these all the time, usually because they are not sure what it is. If the military is flying a new jet and it looks or behaves oddly, it is a UFO, because it is top secret and we can't identify it. It may not be a UFO to other people in the know.

 

The extrapolation to aliens is a different matter. The term UFO has been sort of modified in the minds of many to mean aliens. So anything that is flying, that we can't identify, now has aliens. The way you resolve all the sightings is people actually saw something they could not identify. The unknown gets the imagination going, while culture has created a stock response. The UFO part was, real and can't be denied by the person, but the extrapolation is not accepted very well.

 

What I believe, aliens have as much basis in reality as the gods of mythology. They sort of do the same thing. The gods of mythology used special god powers. Since these old time god powers cross the line of science, we give the aliens technology to make the mythology appear more credible.

 

Instead of flying free style like the gods of mythology, they now use anti-gravity technology. Instead of the hammer of Thor, they use some type of particle beam. Instead of being able to just appear out of nowhere, they now do that with time or dimensional travel. The gods of mythology also used to knock-up humans to create half breeds like Hercules. They bred the old fashion way. To modernize, the aliens now use a lab and genetic technology. Instead of the sacred MT Olympus, we visit the sacred area 51, which is also off limits to humans at risk of death or damnation in prison. Essentially, mythology has been modernized to take advantage of the latest Sc-Fi gismos and make the gods a little closer to the human race. If we could get the alien technology, then we could be like these modern gods.

 

One may argue that with the number of planets that can support life quite large one would logically expect a wide spectrum of life, some even more advanced than us. This is logical, but it suffers from the same problems faced by ancient mythology; direct proof.

[somebody]

i think the colonizing idea could work here because in this documentary, when they put the a rode out in space, it is immediately covered by small lights which could explain how they are colonized around earth.

Ufo.The.Greatest.Story.Ever.Denied.-.XviD-Mp3.avi http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5980990221766439646

 

BTW documentary is very convincing.

[Moontanman]

The term UFO is unidentified flying object. So if an object is flying and we can't identify it, it is a UFO. People see these all the time, usually because they are not sure what it is. If the military is flying a new jet and it looks or behaves oddly, it is a UFO, because it is top secret and we can't identify it. It may not be a UFO to other people in the know.

 

The extrapolation to aliens is a different matter. The term UFO has been sort of modified in the minds of many to mean aliens. So anything that is flying, that we can't identify, now has aliens. The way you resolve all the sightings is people actually saw something they could not identify. The unknown gets the imagination going, while culture has created a stock response. The UFO part was, real and can't be denied by the person, but the extrapolation is not accepted very well.

 

What I believe, aliens have as much basis in reality as the gods of mythology. They sort of do the same thing. The gods of mythology used special god powers. Since these old time god powers cross the line of science, we give the aliens technology to make the mythology appear more credible.

 

Instead of flying free style like the gods of mythology, they now use anti-gravity technology. Instead of the hammer of Thor, they use some type of particle beam. Instead of being able to just appear out of nowhere, they now do that with time or dimensional travel. The gods of mythology also used to knock-up humans to create half breeds like Hercules. They bred the old fashion way. To modernize, the aliens now use a lab and genetic technology. Instead of the sacred MT Olympus, we visit the sacred area 51, which is also off limits to humans at risk of death or damnation in prison. Essentially, mythology has been modernized to take advantage of the latest Sc-Fi gismos and make the gods a little closer to the human race. If we could get the alien technology, then we could be like these modern gods.

 

One may argue that with the number of planets that can support life quite large one would logically expect a wide spectrum of life, some even more advanced than us. This is logical, but it suffers from the same problems faced by ancient mythology; direct proof.

 

 

So you don't give any credence to sightings that cannot be explained as secrete aircraft or natural objects? There is also photographic evidence. In this day and time any photograph is immediately suspect due to photo shop and other means of faking the photos but there really are some sights, photos and even films that are really difficult to explain by simply saying they are false.

 

I am not going to tell the people who saw and photographed strange objects in the sky around the turn of the century they were fakes or tell the people who took photos before the idea of aliens was part of "pop" culture, or sightings by astronauts in space. Nor would I be willing to tell the crew of a B-52 bomber that saw a UFO, saw it's echo on radar, took pictures of the radar screen as the UFO flew along side their nuclear armed aircraft. Several military personnel on the ground also saw this craft, military radar on the ground saw it, and a commercial airline pilot. If the crew of an aircraft that carry nuclear weapons are hallucinating then we have a very big problem.

 

No doubt many if not most photos are fake or do not contain enough information to really be evidence of anything but a dark spot on film.

 

There so many discrepancies between the obvious fakes and the miss identified aircraft idea that a scientist that was hired to debunk UFO's by the military eventually came to believe that something out of the ordinary was happening. He left the military and started his own investigation. J. Allen Hynek was this scientist and he was highly critical of the Air force for not taking any investigation seriously.

 

While none of this proves anything it does raise questions that shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as fakes, lies, and mistaken identity. These things do puzzle me, then again maybe there is a giant conspiracy stretching back Hundreds of years to make people believe in alien space craft. One thing is for sure, we are getting to the place with technology that hiding in our solar system is becoming a difficult thing to do.

 

One thing I would like to at least show is that there is room for doubt, while this doesn't mean that UFO's are alien space craft. It just means the case hasn't been closed on what at least some of them are.

[Thunderbird]

So you don't give any credence to sightings that cannot be explained as secrete aircraft or natural objects? There is also photographic evidence. In this day and time any photograph is immediately suspect due to photo shop and other means of faking the photos but there really are some sights, photos and even films that are really difficult to explain by simply saying they are false.

 

I am not going to tell the people who saw and photographed strange objects in the sky around the turn of the century they were fakes or tell the people who took photos before the idea of aliens was part of "pop" culture, or sightings by astronauts in space. Nor would I be willing to tell the crew of a B-52 bomber that saw a UFO, saw it's echo on radar, took pictures of the radar screen as the UFO flew along side their nuclear armed aircraft. Several military personnel on the ground also saw this craft, military radar on the ground saw it, and a commercial airline pilot. If the crew of an aircraft that carry nuclear weapons are hallucinating then we have a very big problem.

 

No doubt many if not most photos are fake or do not contain enough information to really be evidence of anything but a dark spot on film.

 

There so many discrepancies between the obvious fakes and the miss identified aircraft idea that a scientist that was hired to debunk UFO's by the military eventually came to believe that something out of the ordinary was happening. He left the military and started his own investigation. J. Allen Hynek was this scientist and he was highly critical of the Air force for not taking any investigation seriously.

 

While none of this proves anything it does raise questions that shouldn't be dismissed out of hand as fakes, lies, and mistaken identity. These things do puzzle me, then again maybe there is a giant conspiracy stretching back Hundreds of years to make people believe in alien space craft. One thing is for sure, we are getting to the place with technology that hiding in our solar system is becoming a difficult thing to do.

 

One thing I would like to at least show is that there is room for doubt, while this doesn't mean that UFO's are alien space craft. It just means the case hasn't been closed on what at least some of them are.

I think Hydro is correct in that modern UFO is mythology. I do believe in life other than our own in the universe, but I think the biological and distance barriers preclude any physical contact.

 

One arrant bacteria or virus would wipe out all life on another planet that it did not co-evolve with.

 

We still tend to think of ourselves as traveling frontiersman, we've been doing this for thousands of years, but I believe the next evolutionary step is the getting our collective **** together here on earth.

 

When this happens mankind I believe will then find the infinite all around and right in front of his eyes, and will not deem it necessary to launch himself into space to explore the universe.

 

If you did ever communicate with one of the advanced civilizations out there they would have probably advanced though a technology stage and then progressed out, or skipped it all together and developed into super being’s. In the book dune, Frank Halbert address this advancement of mental powers, over the technology. I would Imagine any information they had would be useless to us in our primitive stage. What advise would you give to a caveman ?

[Moontanman]

I think Hydro is correct in that modern UFO is mythology. I do believe in life other than our own in the universe, but I think the biological and distance barriers preclude any physical contact.

 

One arrant bacteria or virus would wipe out all life on another planet that it did not co-evolve with.

 

We still tend to think of ourselves as traveling frontiersman, we've been doing this for thousands of years, but I believe the next evolutionary step is the getting our collective **** together here on earth.

 

When this happens mankind I believe will then find the infinite all around and right in front of his eyes, and will not deem it necessary to launch himself into space to explore the universe.

 

If you did ever communicate with one of the advanced civilizations out there they would have probably advanced though a technology stage and then progressed out, or skipped it all together and developed into super being’s. In the book dune, Frank Halbert address this advancement of mental powers, over the technology. I would Imagine any information they had would be useless to us in our primitive stage. What advise would you give to a caveman ?

 

How are your idea's of super beings any more likely than my idea of an alien species colonizing the galaxy with slow colony ships? My idea doesn't require any fantastic tecnology or any other things that beyond our understanding. Mental powers? Lets keep this in the arena of what we know is possible. Speculation about things beyond our understanding is just as bad as saying the aliens ar walking amoung us as we speak. I don't think anything is beyond the understanding of man or any other species that is creastive and intellegent enough to make space craft. What would I say to a cave man? If I new his language there would be many things we could discuss. Hunting, fishing, farming, we are not as differnt as you seem to think. Just because a speices might have high tecnology doesn't mean they will be super beings. Super beings are not much removed from the supernatural. We might appear to be super beings to a primitive but we would stil have things in common. High tecnology doesn't mean super being, it might mean an adavnced tecnology that would appear to us to be magic but if we were told it was tecnology most of us could go with that the same way we use tecnology we can't understand as individuals. how many people could make a nuclear powered aircraft carrier? We can all understand it in small parts but very few people could take in the complexity of the entire ship. Take that ship back 500 years and if it was seen by the sailing ships of that it would appear to be magic but we would still be alble to explain it was just a ship with engines that pushed rather than sails. Just because those early sailors couldn't understand nuclear energy doesn't mean they couldn't understand it wasn't magic if we told them it wasn't.

[Thunderbird]

How are your idea's of super beings any more likely than my idea of an alien species colonizing the galaxy with slow colony ships? My idea doesn't require any fantastic tecnology or any other things that beyond our understanding. Mental powers? Lets keep this in the arena of what we know is possible.

This was my point your senerio is not possible. Slow transport..it would take tens of thousands of years to go to another system and then the envionment would likely kill you and if there were beings there you would not be welcome. Colonizing, you watched one to many star treck episods my freind. These would be others beings homes.

 

Mental evolution not in the realm of possibilities? Are you kidding.

 

 

 

 

Speculation about things beyond our understanding is just as bad as saying the aliens ar walking amoung us as we speak. I don't think anything is beyond the understanding of man or any other species that is creastive and intellegent enough to make space craft. What would I say to a cave man? If I new his language there would be many things we could discuss. Hunting, fishing, farming, we are not as differnt as you seem to think. Just because a speices might have high tecnology doesn't mean they will be super beings. Super beings are not much removed from the supernatural. We might appear to be super beings to a primitive but we would stil have things in common. High tecnology doesn't mean super being, it might mean an adavnced tecnology that would appear to us to be magic but if we were told it was tecnology most of us could go with that the same way we use tecnology we can't understand as individuals. how many people could make a nuclear powered aircraft carrier? We can all understand it in small parts but very few people could take in the complexity of the entire ship. Take that ship back 500 years and if it was seen by the sailing ships of that it would appear to be magic but we would still be alble to explain it was just a ship with engines that pushed rather than sails. Just because those early sailors couldn't understand nuclear energy doesn't mean they couldn't understand it wasn't magic if we told them it wasn't.

You not reading the post this is what I said

If you did ever communicate with one of the advanced civilizations out there they would have probably advanced though a technology stage and then progressed out, or skipped it all together and developed into super being’s. In the book dune, Frank Halbert address this advancement of mental powers, over the technology.

 

 

Mabe your never read Dune or you have ADD I don't know but also my question was about what could you learn from a advanced being. The answer would be nothing.... just as you would not be able to teach a cave man anything to make him a better cave man.

[Moontanman]

This was my point your senerio is not possible. Slow transport..it would take tens of thousands of years to go to another system and then the envionment would likely kill you and if there were beings there you would not be welcome. Colonizing, you watched one to many star treck episods my freind. These would be others beings homes.

 

Mental evolution not in the realm of possibilities? Are you kidding.

 

 

 

 

You not reading the post this is what I said

 

 

Mabe your never read Dune or you have ADD I don't know but also my question was about what could you learn from a advanced being. The answer would be nothing.... just as you would not be able to teach a cave man anything to make him a better cave man.

 

 

Orbiting colonies do not occupy planets, I never said they were colonizing planets so the environment of the Earth is a moot point.

 

Tens of thousands of years to make to another star! What are you doing, crawling there? Even at one percent of the speed of light, magnetic sails could give us this speed with a little help from Nuclear energy it would just take four hundred years to go to the nearest system. Not thousands of years.

 

A civilization colonizing space would have no real use for Earth like planets, you didn't read my whole post did you? As I said using current technology we could occupy pretty much the entire galaxy in 250,000 years. Not a long time in the grand scheme of things and we wouldn't need planets. Orbiting debris would be plenty for most colonies to build more colony ships and slowly move out into space.

 

Stars like Sol would be likely targets because of the large amounts of metals in our sun. The solar system is unusual in that the sun and the rest of the solar system has a high level of heavy metals. This means planets, asteroids, and comets. That is why any aliens might come here to colonize the space around the sun, not for the earth.

 

And yes I read Dune and all the dune books several times, it's called Science Fiction dude. It's not a prophecy, it's imagination. No one has any reason to think that huge mental powers will replace technology. As for Star Trek, that's fiction as well. There will be no huge communities of humans evolving on different planets and mating with each other. If it does turn out like that then ID is real, evolution is directed by someone for sure!

 

How do you make statements like a cave man couldn't learn new things? What do you mean by caveman? The term Caveman is totally misleading to start with and it has connotations that are highly suspicious. Modern humans lived in caves, so did Neanderthals. Neanderthals had bigger brains than we do.

 

If you took a human infant from one of those caves and raised it in modern times it would have the same potential as a human born today. Just because they didn't start using nuclear power in their cave doesn't mean they were inferior in any way to us intellectually. An adult "cave man" might not be able to take in quantum mechanics but he would be just as intelegent as any normal human would be.

[Ahmabeliever]

I would Imagine any information they had would be useless to us in our primitive stage. What advise would you give to a caveman ?

 

This is assuming they are friendlies, and cave men, not cave monkeys... :)

 

This is a wheel, this is a fishing net, this is a cannabis plant, this is flint, these are earth bricks, this is an irrigation ditch, this is composting, permaculture, terra preta, wine.... I am GOD :blink:

 

If we were to colonize space the easiest way would certainly be as outlined in the initial post. Orbiting colonies.

 

Set a few up round the earth to test them out, see how they run, send one off to a further planets orbit, see how it goes there, and then off to another star...

 

It makes sense that another race could progressively do this exact same thing.

 

On the believability scale of urban legends, I'm a Sasquatch fan. :lol:

[Thunderbird]

Orbiting colonies do not occupy planets, I never said they were colonizing planets so the environment of the Earth is a moot point.

What would be the advantage of living in space? There is no air, water, food, soil, sky. There are cosmic rays, meteors, boredom, incredibly expensive, would be depressing, Closter phobic and generally unhealthy and unnatural to what a human needs to live a decent life.

 

What is the purpose? what gain is there to be had?

Tens of thousands of years to make to another star! What are you doing, crawling there? Even at one percent of the speed of light, magnetic sails could give us this speed with a little help from Nuclear energy it would just take four hundred years to go to the nearest system. Not thousands of years.

 

 

 

 

We have no such technology that you speak of, they are just ideas, I remember when I was a kid technology was about space exploration, we were in the space age. We are now in the communication age. There is a trend toward globalization, take to the next step you have a singularity, a unification. This will undoubtedly bring about a new world. This is the next evolutionary step. This idea of moving to a better pastures after we have depleted our resources can no longer be an option. Migration is the past. Integration is the future.

 

 

 

 

A civilization colonizing space would have no real use for Earth like planets, you didn't read my whole post did you? As I said using current technology we could occupy pretty much the entire galaxy in 250,000 years. Not a long time in the grand scheme of things and we wouldn't need planets. Orbiting debris would be plenty for most colonies to build more colony ships and slowly move out into space.

I assumed the reason for taking such a long trip is to visit other planets. You would need to replenish your stores. how is this possible when your light years from earth?

Stars like Sol would be likely targets because of the large amounts of metals in our sun. The solar system is unusual in that the sun and the rest of the solar system has a high level of heavy metals. This means planets, asteroids, and comets. That is why any aliens might come here to colonize the space around the sun, not for the earth.

I'm sorry that's just silly, aliens travel light years because they need metal.B)

And yes I read Dune and all the dune books several times, it's called Science Fiction dude. It's not a prophecy, it's imagination. No one has any reason to think that huge mental powers will replace technology. As for Star Trek, that's fiction as well. There will be no huge communities of humans evolving on different planets and mating with each other. If it does turn out like that then ID is real, evolution is directed by someone for sure!

 

Some Sci-Fi writers like frank's are considered futurist. His book Dune is set in the future, but is a comment on our society. You've read these books and never made that connection.

 

Maybe you should read them again and then look around at the issues of today. He may not be a prophet, but his books are definitely prophetic. They seem to have come true about society.

 

The Sci-Fi space travel part has not, this is an important point that your not seeing about our future. The space travel is just window dressing fantasy for what these books are really addressing about are future. Your making the fantasy real and leaving the practical aspect to wast.

 

 

How do you make statements like a cave man couldn't learn new things? What do you mean by caveman? The term Caveman is totally misleading to start with and it has connotations that are highly suspicious. Modern humans lived in caves, so did Neanderthals. Neanderthals had bigger brains than we do.

 

If you took a human infant from one of those caves and raised it in modern times it would have the same potential as a human born today. Just because they didn't start using nuclear power in their cave doesn't mean they were inferior in any way to us intellectually. An adult "cave man" might not be able to take in quantum mechanics but he would be just as intelegent as any normal human would be.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything at all with anything I said. My point is You cannot teach a caveman to be a better caveman. scientific nomenclatures are not necessary when one is speaking Metaphorically.

[Thunderbird]

 

On the believability scale of urban legends, I'm a Sasquatch fan. B)

 

Ok Ahmadeliever do you really belive in Sasquatch ? we may need to open a new thread.:eek: