New idea about UFO's!

[Moontanman]

What would be the advantage of living in space? There is no air, water, food, soil, sky. There are cosmic rays, meteors, boredom, incredibly expensive, would be depressing, Closter phobic and generally unhealthy and unnatural to what a human needs to live a decent life.

 

What is the purpose? what gain is there to be had?

 

Have you read about O'Neill type colonies? very large rotating objects you live on the inside surface of? they are big enough to contain their own ecosystems. Plenty of room and large enough to shield from meteors and radiation. Not to expensive if you make them assembly line from the materials at hand in the asteroid belt and from comets and small ice moons. the advantage is a plethora of the very things you say they would not have!

 

 

We have no such technology that you speak of, they are just ideas, I remember when I was a kid technology was about space exploration, we were in the space age. We are now in the communication age. There is a trend toward globalization, take to the next step you have a singularity, a unification. This will undoubtedly bring about a new world. This is the next evolutionary step. This idea of moving to a better pastures after we have depleted our resources can no longer be an option. Migration is the past. Integration is the future.

 

Integration is the road to extinction, no tecnological civilization can survive if it cannot expand. The Earth will not support us indefinitly. No matter how hard we try the Earth will die under our load. Fast, slow or in between the trend is always down. We are already using the last of the resources that can be had with out totally destroying the planet. Population does nothing but go up, even if the industrial nations stop their population climb the third world is increasing it's population exponentially. Orbiting colonies are the only way the human race can expand in a reasonable amount of time. Magnetic sails and nuclear power are current technology taken to a reasonable level. Super human mental powers are fantasy

 

I assumed the reason for taking such a long trip is to visit other planets. You would need to replenish your stores. how is this possible when your light years from earth?

I'm sorry that's just silly, aliens travel light years because they need metal.B)

 

You take enough along with you to replace the little that is lost from an ecosystem that recycles as much as possible. Metals, in astronomical terms, is any element heavier than hydrogen and helium. If would make sense to seek out stars with high metal content to make sure you would have enough orbiting debris to make copies of your colonies when you got there

 

Some Sci-Fi writers like frank's are considered futurist. His book Dune is set in the future, but is a comment on our society. You've read these books and never made that connection.

 

I've made all the connections in Frank's books. There is still no reason to expect mental powers to replace technology. No indication at all, this part of his futurist writing is completely unfounded and absolutely nothing has happened to make anyone think is will come true at all. I can't believe you are so far disconnected from reality you would think that just because a science fiction writer says it in a book it must come true.

 

Maybe you should read them again and then look around at the issues of today. He may not be a prophet, but his books are definitely prophetic. They seem to have come true about society.

 

Please be specific about what parts of dune have come true. Has the human race colonized hundreds of other planets? Does anyone star travel by folding space with their minds? where is my personal force field?

 

The Sci-Fi space travel part has not, this is an important point that your not seeing about our future. The space travel is just window dressing fantasy for what these books are really addressing about are future. Your making the fantasy real and leaving the practical aspect to wast.

 

I beg your pardon, we have traveled to the moon. Only spending too much money on war and fear of nuclear power has kept us from exploring the entire solar system. We have sent robots to many places in the solar system. that is the first step. The US is making plans as we speak to return to the Moon and to go to Mars. Other countries are doing the same. How fast does humanity have to do this to make you see it's possible? We don't want any more astronauts to die needlessly so we go slowly. Accidents will still happen but there is no need to go so fast we make them happen when we could have prevented them. How are superhuman mental powers more likely that space travel we already have the basic technology to do?

 

I have no idea what this has to do with anything at all with anything I said. My point is You cannot teach a caveman to be a better caveman. scientific nomenclatures are not necessary when one is speaking Metaphorically.

 

I beg to disagree, primitive humans would more than capable of learning new things, that is how we got to where we are. civilization didn't just start because humans suddenly got smart a few thousand years ago. it really start fifty thousand or more years ago. a phase change did occur but a great deal of tiny steps were necessary before we could capitalize on that change. A human "caveman" and suspect an Neanderthal "caveman" as well could be taught many things if you started simple with concepts he understood. A stone age hunter gatherer could easily be taught farming as long as you didn't insist he start out with the type of complex farming we do today. he could be taught to smelt and use metals. once you had these things to build on in just a few generations he could be taught to build houses out of native materials, taught to domesticate animals, taught the importance of cleanliness, to build cities. No you couldn't teach one individual these things anymore than I could be taught to colonize space but these things would be with in the grasp of his comprehension if taught slowly in incremental steps.

 

So

[Thunderbird]

Your misrepresentations of my points are growing exponentially on every post, and is getting old. Communications is about understanding the issues raised on both sides, then going from there.

 

Work on it.

[Moontanman]

Your misrepresentations of my points are growing exponentially on every post, and is getting old. Communications is about understanding the issues raised on both sides, then going from there.

 

Work on it.

 

Please tell me point for point how I have misrepresented what you are saying. I am a reassonable man and quick to admit my mistakes but I don't see it that way in this case. Show me different and I'll apologize. but don't expect me to believe you are correct just because you say so. I have countered every point you made, please do me the same with out simply telling me I am wrong.

[Thunderbird]

Please tell me point for point how I have misrepresented what you are saying. I am a reassonable man and quick to admit my mistakes but I don't see it that way in this case. Show me different and I'll apologize. but don't expect me to believe you are correct just because you say so. I have countered every point you made, please do me the same with out simply telling me I am wrong.

 

You cannot teach a caveman to be better at being a caveman. anymore than an alien is going to teach you how to be a better human.

 

An advanced race of aliens would however know this simple fact.

 

This below correct, but is not relevant to my point.

 

I beg to disagree, primitive humans would more than capable of learning new things, that is how we got to where we are. civilization didn't just start because humans suddenly got smart a few thousand years ago. it really start fifty thousand or more years ago. a phase change did occur but a great deal of tiny steps were necessary before we could capitalize on that change. A human "caveman" and suspect an Neanderthal "caveman" as well could be taught many things if you started simple with concepts he understood. A stone age hunter gatherer could easily be taught farming as long as you didn't insist he start out with the type of complex farming we do today. he could be taught to smelt and use metals. once you had these things to build on in just a few generations he could be taught to build houses out of native materials, taught to domesticate animals, taught the importance of cleanliness, to build cities. No you couldn't teach one individual these things anymore than I could be taught to colonize space but these things would be with in the grasp of his comprehension if taught slowly in incremental steps.

[Thunderbird]

Integration is the road to extinction, no tecnological civilization can survive if it cannot expand. The Earth will not support us indefinitly. No matter how hard we try the Earth will die under our load. Fast, slow or in between the trend is always down. We are already using the last of the resources that can be had with out totally destroying the planet. Population does nothing but go up, even if the industrial nations stop their population climb the third world is increasing it's population exponentially. Orbiting colonies are the only way the human race can expand in a reasonable amount of time. Magnetic sails and nuclear power are current technology taken to a reasonable level. Super human mental powers are fantasy

 

 

You have given perfect discription of a metastasizing cancer cell, not evolution.

 

Evolution are cycles of diversity and integration.

[Ahmabeliever]

I'm following both sides here and you are both lucid, perhaps not to each other?

 

Teaching cavemen, come on, I am teachable, you are teachable... cavemen are teachable. One step at a time, that's how we climb mountains, teach children, colonise the universe.

 

I'm for the evolution of mankind, integration, AND exploration. I can see no alternative unless Jesus comes back to save us all. My money's on space colonisation. :)

 

Let's say we can build giant tubes in space. I'm betting we can, I use as an example the space station. This is not what we want but there it is, in space and in orbit. If we were to add an ecosystem to this, we would have the initial, but very rough, prototype for living in space.

 

What do we need.

 

Energy - Solar and nuclear, between stars solar energy is bound to suck.

Water - Recycled, and replenished from space.

Nutrition - Recirculating zero waste aquaponic gardens, hell, even I can make these. Protein and veg.

Air - Use the gardens and trees to produce oxygen.

Err, I think that's it for requirements to keep humans alive. Of course, we need to supply these things inside a ship.

 

So you put 10 000 people in a pod. That population can only breed at rate of 1 child per death. All the nutrients and water and air are recycled in an on ship eco system that provides nutrition, oxygen, and water purification.

 

The biggest problem I foresee living in space is cabin fever. Thing is, humans adjust to all sorts of environments, space is merely another one.

 

We could make eden in space, or a sh**hole.

[Moontanman]

I'm following both sides here and you are both lucid, perhaps not to each other?

 

Teaching cavemen, come on, I am teachable, you are teachable... cavemen are teachable. One step at a time, that's how we climb mountains, teach children, colonise the universe.

 

I'm for the evolution of mankind, integration, AND exploration. I can see no alternative unless Jesus comes back to save us all. My money's on space colonisation. :)

 

Let's say we can build giant tubes in space. I'm betting we can, I use as an example the space station. This is not what we want but there it is, in space and in orbit. If we were to add an ecosystem to this, we would have the initial, but very rough, prototype for living in space.

 

What do we need.

 

Energy - Solar and nuclear, between stars solar energy is bound to suck.

Water - Recycled, and replenished from space.

Nutrition - Recirculating zero waste aquaponic gardens, hell, even I can make these. Protein and veg.

Air - Use the gardens and trees to produce oxygen.

Err, I think that's it for requirements to keep humans alive. Of course, we need to supply these things inside a ship.

 

So you put 10 000 people in a pod. That population can only breed at rate of 1 child per death. All the nutrients and water and air are recycled in an on ship eco system that provides nutrition, oxygen, and water purification.

 

The biggest problem I foresee living in space is cabin fever. Thing is, humans adjust to all sorts of environments, space is merely another one.

 

We could make eden in space, or a sh**hole.

 

It depends on how big you make it, depending on how much gravity is required to keep humans healthy and the strenth of matrials. I envision a torus miles across and miles thick. you spin it to obtian the right gravity and live on the inside surface. You light the inside surface with fiber optics, funneling sunlight into the interior and the interior becomes forests lakes even rivers. You could even have several layers with humans living inside in large areas that with optical effects would seem to be outside under the sun. It would be built like a endless suspension bridge with the support cables wraping around the outside. It's size would be limited only by the strenth of available materials. Carbon micro tubes spin into cables should allow it to be of significant size. such a colony say six mile across and two miles thick, like a pudgy donut, should be able to support several thousand humans in great comfort. this shape would also make sense for magnetic sails.

[Moontanman]

You have given perfect discription of a metastasizing cancer cell, not evolution.

 

Evolution are cycles of diversity and integration.

 

that's exactly what humans have become in relation to the earth's ecosystem. No amount of control will change this. Eventually the earth will become uninhabitable no matter what we do, it would be much better for us to leave teh Earth fallow long before this happens. We don't own the earth there are other inhabitants we share it with. we should leave and give them a chance. If we wait too long things will degrade to teh point that we will not be able to leave and we will go down like all other species before us.

[Moontanman]

You cannot teach a caveman to be better at being a caveman. anymore than an alien is going to teach you how to be a better human.

 

An advanced race of aliens would however know this simple fact.

 

This below correct, but is not relevant to my point.

 

Cavemen as you call them were just as human as we are and had just as much potintial. To say they were some how inferior and not able to learn as we do is simply wrong.

[Moontanman]

You cannot teach a caveman to be better at being a caveman. anymore than an alien is going to teach you how to be a better human.

 

An advanced race of aliens would however know this simple fact.

 

This below correct, but is not relevant to my point.

 

I wouldn't want to teach them to be a better cave man, I would want to teach them to better their situation. they were already doing the best they could with the accumulated knowledge they had up to that point.

[Thunderbird]

I'm following both sides here and you are both lucid, perhaps not to each other?

 

Teaching cavemen, come on, I am teachable, you are teachable... cavemen are teachable. One step at a time, that's how we climb mountains, teach children, colonise the universe.

Who said a cave man was not teachable ?

 

 

I'm for the evolution of mankind, integration, AND exploration. I can see no alternative unless Jesus comes back to save us all. My money's on space colonisation. :)

 

Let's say we can build giant tubes in space. I'm betting we can, I use as an example the space station. This is not what we want but there it is, in space and in orbit. If we were to add an ecosystem to this, we would have the initial, but very rough, prototype for living in space.

 

What do we need.

 

Energy - Solar and nuclear, between stars solar energy is bound to suck.

Water - Recycled, and replenished from space.

Nutrition - Recirculating zero waste aquaponic gardens, hell, even I can make these. Protein and veg.

Air - Use the gardens and trees to produce oxygen.

Err, I think that's it for requirements to keep humans alive. Of course, we need to supply these things inside a ship.

 

So you put 10 000 people in a pod. That population can only breed at rate of 1 child per death. All the nutrients and water and air are recycled in an on ship eco system that provides nutrition, oxygen, and water purification.

 

The biggest problem I foresee living in space is cabin fever. Thing is, humans adjust to all sorts of environments, space is merely another one.

 

We could make eden in space, or a sh**hole.

 

Maybe part of mankind will evolve to live in cans in a lifeless vacume, just not me. I need my beloved earth and I will try to make it into an eden.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Thunderbird

You cannot teach a caveman to be better at being a caveman. anymore than an alien is going to teach you how to be a better human.

 

An advanced race of aliens would however know this simple fact.

 

 

 

 

Cavemen as you call them were just as human as we are and had just as much potintial. To say they were some how inferior and not able to learn as we do is simply wrong.

You.... cannot..... teach...... a caveman........ to be better..... at...... being a.......... caveman

 

How in any way does what your saying have anything at to do with what I said.

[Moontanman]

Who said a cave man was not teachable ?

 

 

 

 

Maybe part of mankind will evolve to live in cans in a lifeless vacume, just not me. I need my beloved earth and I will try to make it into an eden.

 

You have eyes but you will not see, cans in a vacuum, I wouldn't do that either but a colony like I discribed would be like a little chunk of Earth in the sky. As for who said cave men couldn't learn, you did. I hope you do turn the Earth into an eden, just remember eden only had two people in it. Now none of this has anything to do with the thread topic.

 

If UFO's were already inside our solar system using O'Neil type colonies many of the things we use to deny the possibility that UFO are aeins space craft would not be applicable. How could we find them if they are using our solar system?

[Thunderbird]

Cavemen as you call them were just as human as we are and had just as much potintial. To say they were some how inferior and not able to learn as we do is simply wrong.

 

I wouldn't want to teach them to be a better cave man, I would want to teach them to better their situation. they were already doing the best they could with the accumulated knowledge they had up to that point.

 

So you think you could better them as cave men :) maybe you could go back in time and teach an native American how to survive off the land.

 

Or better their situation. You are the one that is saying we are some how superior to them. I would Imagine if you did go back you could tell them nothing and you would learn nothing.

[Thunderbird]

As for who said cave men couldn't learn, you did.

 

 

Show me.

[Moontanman]

So you think you could better them as cave men :) maybe you could go back in time and teach an native American how to survive off the land.

 

Or better their situation. You are the one that is saying we are some how superior to them. I would Imagine if you did go back you could tell them nothing and you would learn nothing.

 

Thunderbird, you are splitting hairs to try and annoy me. teach him to be a better cave man, that's nonsensical. Being a native american I think I have a better slant on what they could be taught and what they couldn't. Please leave my thread.

[Thunderbird]

Thunderbird, you are splitting hairs to try and annoy me. teach him to be a better cave man, that's nonsensical. Being a native american I think I have a better slant on what they could be taught and what they couldn't. Please leave my thread.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moontanman

As for who said cave men couldn't learn, you did.

 

 

 

Show me.

 

Back it up.