NOVA: Car of the Future

[Moontanman]

While not quite the huge step forward many of these idea are, Hymotion has started taking orders for a module for the Prius which will bump the mileage to as much as 150mpg for short trips.

I am probably going to get 90-100mpg considering my driving habits.

On another front, Th!nk in Norway has announce US distribution (thank you Norway!) About TH!NK North America / Our Company / Home - Think.

A much more affordable car than the Tesla;)

 

No where near as sexy as the tesla but at my age sexy is somewhat less the number one priority:( Still in the top ten though:hihi:

[Zythryn]

It will be much more sexy when you are cruising the strip in your 100mpg Prius as the V12 supercharged muscle cars are sitting on the edge of the road;)

[Moontanman]

It will be much more sexy when you are cruising the strip in your 100mpg Prius as the V12 supercharged muscle cars are sitting on the edge of the road;)

 

Yeah, this is true but the people who drive those cars will still buy gas if it's $1000 dolars a liter. Driving those cars makes up for certian physical short comings:hihi:

[HydrogenBond]

ScienceDaily (Apr. 24, 2005) — Using a new electrically-assisted microbial fuel cell (MFC) that does not require oxygen, Penn State environmental engineers and a scientist at Ion Power Inc. have developed the first process that enables bacteria to coax four times as much hydrogen directly out of biomass than can be generated typically by fermentation alone

 

These bacteria make hydrogen gas from fermentation of biomass including waste. The electricity assists, making them more efficient. We have the makings of solar powered septic tanks to make hydrogen. They can be powered by leaves, grass, human waste, and other biomass.

[freeztar]

These bacteria make hydrogen gas from fermentation of biomass including waste. The electricity assists, making them more efficient. We have the makings of solar powered septic tanks to make hydrogen. They can be powered by leaves, grass, human waste, and other biomass.

 

Good find HB!

This reminds me of the very end of "Back to the Future" where Doc flies in with the DeLorian and fills up the fuel tank with trash from the garbage can. :bouquet:

 

Perhaps we're not too far from making that a reality. :(

[Boerseun]

Flywheels would be my bet...

 

Currently, flywheels have been tested as "generators" for electric-drive vehicles, at RPM's up to 150,000. Apparently, the energy density in a very low-friction flywheel turning at speed is quite a few times higher than the best batteries in production.

 

So what you do is suck energy from the flywheel when accellerating, which will drop its RPM's - you basically wrap the sucker in coils, and suck energy via induction - you have electric motors at every wheel. Then, when you're either going downhill or braking, you suck energy from the wheels and spin up the flywheel. Induction via moving shock absorbers adds some more fun to the party. Also, when you park, the flywheel keeps spinning - if you don't use energy from it, it'll literally spin for weeks. BUT, with your ride parked in the sun, solar panels keep speeding the flywheel up to partially replace lost kinetic energy. Every bit helps. For a quick charge, you can just plug in to the grid - but if you have time, you can just let your car stand in the sun for however long it takes.

 

Only snag here, is that a flywheel going at 150,000rpm is a bomb. A very nasty bomb, at that. Any manufacturing defects or cracks in the flywheel causing it to fly apart at such speed, will not only destroy the car and its passengers, but will cause considerable damage to other cars (and passengers) in the vicinity. A head-on collision between two flywheel-driven cars, both with fully sped-up flywheels, will be quite a sight - just make sure you stand very far away...

 

But that being the case, petrol-driven vehicles were also seen as driving bombs at the time of their inception. So, there probably will be a way around it. Advanced material technology could make the concept safe, or a sort of computerised "real-time X-ray analysis" of the flywheels as they turn, might simply shut down the flywheel on detecting hairline cracks or any other sort of structural problems with the flywheel, rendering it safer than they currently are.

 

But I think the energy density issue might swing the future car debate towards flywheels. Every other possible solution is also riddled with obstacles, and scientists worldwide are working in overcoming them.

[Pyrotex]

wrap the engine in a loose blanket made of Kevlar and nanotubes. If the flywheel breaks apart (and the kinetic energy at 150 Krpm is indeed awesome!), then the blanket will absorb maybe 90% of that energy before destructing.

[Buffy]

A head-on collision between two flywheel-driven cars, both with fully sped-up flywheels, will be quite a sight

Sounds like a job for the Mythbusters: I know they've been looking to top the "remove dried concrete from the concrete mixer truck" episode....

 

I reject your reality and substitute my own, :phones:

Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

So, a combination of technologies is what I'm hearing.

 

The challenge, of course, is making a change to the infrastructure as well. More than 2 billion more cars in China and India by the end of the decade. Sure would be nice if we stopped using old, outdated, detrimental technology while adding this tremendous number of new vehicles.

 

The idea being that it's easier to setup new infrastructures while they are young and more flexible, using the best ideas and approaches, than it is to completely retool and retrofit old infrastructures when their "cogs" can no longer be supported.

[InfiniteNow]

While not quite the huge step forward many of these idea are, Hymotion has started taking orders for a module for the Prius which will bump the mileage to as much as 150mpg for short trips.

 

Z... You're beautiful, baby! Thank you for sharing this!

 

 

This is the kind of thing that our government should subsidize...

[Zythryn]

Anytime Infi;)

Currently I put on my tinfoil hat and look at it this way.

People running our government are making money on oil and are too short sighted to realize we are going to be in big trouble a few years into supply being greater than demand.

I am sticking it to the 'man' by doing my best to not line their pockets buying lots of gasoline.

As a side benifit, I am helping mankinds strugle against GW;)

[Zythryn]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but electric cars do have much better performance compared to the alternatives.

 

They can, but there is no gaurentee.

What is true of more electric cars across the board is the motors require almost no mantainance compared to an ICE.

For this reason alone it is a much better technology. It is also one of the reasons many give for it's failure in the late 90s as the big three rely on repair bills for a large part of their income.

[Boerseun]

Electric cars won't achieve anything, unless charged with clean power. If your grid is fed with coal- or oil burning plants, you're simply transporting the pollution somewhere else. The powerplant now has to burn more coal because you've purchased an electric "environmentally friendly" car. Which achieves nada - the plant will have to burn more energy to produce your charge than you would have gotten in a full tank of gas, producing more pollution.

 

Switching to electric vehicles without changing our entire electricity supply source from fossil to nuclear or renewable/non-polluting is utterly pointless.

 

If an entire city were to switch to electric, and everybody parked their cars in their garages, plugged them in so they can be ready and charged for the morning commute, it will completely crash the grid. Charging an electric vehicle is no small feat, not even close to anything you charge on a daily basis. An electric vehicle is not a cellphone. Due to the energy requirements to shift a couple of tons around town for a few hundred miles, it will suck the grid to kingdom come. I bet if you plug in your car you'll hear your electric meter ticking from miles away. People are switching to energy saving lightbulbs, because they might save a few pennies on using lower Wattage per bulb, but are willing to purchase an electric vehicle that will make your meter run as if you've got ten ovens running on full blast for ten hours at a stretch, every day. If every house in every street had ten ovens running full-blast, the grid will crash.

 

Swithching to electric without re-engineering the entire electricity supply grid, from source to domestic power outlet, is futile and pointless - the grid can't handle it.

 

Hydrogen is the way to go, if we can get a cheaper and easier way of splittin' those pesky and sticky H atoms of the fat O than electrolysis - which also, once again, merely transports the pollution, making the point rather moot.

 

The most obvious answer would be to drive less. Shop over the net, telecommute, and when you actually have to go somewhere, use a bicycle if close by, or public transport.

[Moontanman]

Electric cars won't achieve anything, unless charged with clean power. If your grid is fed with coal- or oil burning plants, you're simply transporting the pollution somewhere else. The powerplant now has to burn more coal because you've purchased an electric "environmentally friendly" car. Which achieves nada - the plant will have to burn more energy to produce your charge than you would have gotten in a full tank of gas, producing more pollution.

 

Switching to electric vehicles without changing our entire electricity supply source from fossil to nuclear or renewable/non-polluting is utterly pointless.

 

If an entire city were to switch to electric, and everybody parked their cars in their garages, plugged them in so they can be ready and charged for the morning commute, it will completely crash the grid. Charging an electric vehicle is no small feat, not even close to anything you charge on a daily basis. An electric vehicle is not a cellphone. Due to the energy requirements to shift a couple of tons around town for a few hundred miles, it will suck the grid to kingdom come. I bet if you plug in your car you'll hear your electric meter ticking from miles away. People are switching to energy saving lightbulbs, because they might save a few pennies on using lower Wattage per bulb, but are willing to purchase an electric vehicle that will make your meter run as if you've got ten ovens running on full blast for ten hours at a stretch, every day. If every house in every street had ten ovens running full-blast, the grid will crash.

 

Swithching to electric without re-engineering the entire electricity supply grid, from source to domestic power outlet, is futile and pointless - the grid can't handle it.

 

Hydrogen is the way to go, if we can get a cheaper and easier way of splittin' those pesky and sticky H atoms of the fat O than electrolysis - which also, once again, merely transports the pollution, making the point rather moot.

 

The most obvious answer would be to drive less. Shop over the net, telecommute, and when you actually have to go somewhere, use a bicycle if close by, or public transport.

 

Actually, if you had watched the NOVA show you would have found out that charging an electric car at night not only costs very little (a little over a dollar a night) but since it is being charged in off peak time it actually allows the power company to maintain a more efficient power supply. I thought it was counterintuitive as well but that is what they said.

[Zythryn]

Electric cars won't achieve anything, unless charged with clean power. If your grid is fed with coal- or oil burning plants, you're simply transporting the pollution somewhere else.

 

This point has been raised and refuted before. It is simply not true as the electric engine is more efficient than the internal combustion engine (ICE) well to wheel.

 

Even if there was no efficiency gain, coal and oil only accounts for 53% of electricity generation in the US. So 47% of it is 'cleaner'.

 

The powerplant now has to burn more coal because you've purchased an electric "environmentally friendly" car.

 

Not true if you are charging at night (when most people would). At night many power plants continue operations even though demand has dropped below the rate they supply the energy. Basically wasting some of that energy. This way it has a use:)

 

Switching to electric vehicles without changing our entire electricity supply source from fossil to nuclear or renewable/non-polluting is utterly pointless.

 

This seems a bit of a straw man argument. Do you expect the entire transportation fleet to switch to EVs in one day? What if I am the only one to switch, would it still be entirely pointless?

 

If an entire city were to switch to electric, and everybody parked their cars in their garages, plugged them in so they can be ready and charged for the morning commute, it will completely crash the grid.

 

Good thing no one thinks that would be possible to do;)

Adoption of EVs will not occur overnight. It will start slow and grow over time giving the grid time to grow.

In addition, with the wasted energy now there is a lot of slack which the early adopters can use with NO additional power production needed.

 

Charging an electric vehicle is no small feat, not even close to anything you charge on a daily basis.

 

I think you overstate the magnitude of this. How much energy is required to heat a swimming pool?

 

People are switching to energy saving lightbulbs, because they might save a few pennies on using lower Wattage per bulb, but are willing to purchase an electric vehicle that will make your meter run as if you've got ten ovens running on full blast for ten hours at a stretch, every day. If every house in every street had ten ovens running full-blast, the grid will crash.

 

Interesting position, lets try it out:

Measuring my oven on 'full blast' it uses 2.5Kw. So 10 ovens on 'full blast' would be 25Kw. For 10 hours a day that would be 250Kwh.

For now, lets stick to one house on the block.

Now, if I could afford one, my Tesla Roadster would have a 52Kw battery. So if I had to charge it from empty to full every day that would be a total of... 52Kwh. A tad less than you 250Kwh.

But wait, there's more!

Since the average travel distance per day is less than 220miles (the range) the amount needed to charge is not the full 52Kw. For me I would need to recharge every 4 or 5 days. Lets give your position the benifit and say 4 days. So 52Kw/4=... 13Kw. (Hey, that is about the maximum return on my solar panels!!:confused:).

 

Swithching to electric without re-engineering the entire electricity supply grid, from source to domestic power outlet, is futile and pointless - the grid can't handle it.

 

I think I have shown it can. As for everyone driving an EV, it will never happen. And as more people use EVs the grid can grow. It won't happen overnight.

 

The most obvious answer would be to drive less. Shop over the net, telecommute, and when you actually have to go somewhere, use a bicycle if close by, or public transport.

 

Here I agree with you completely. These are wonderful and helpful ideas. Combined with EVs I think the whole picture gets even better.

[InfiniteNow]

In addition to "charging at night," it sure is a lot simpler to replace one centralized grid with clean energy than to replace the petrol station infrastructure, each gas station on each corner of each street in every town...

 

It then becomes an issue of building one single new power plant, instead of replacing millions of gas stations.

 

Also, if someone has renewable energy available at home, like solar panels on the roof, the cars can just as easily be charged with that.

 

I appreciate the need for clear and critical logic, but there are pretty real and simple solutions already available for many, if not most, of these "obstacles."

[Zythryn]

In addition to "charging at night," it sure is a lot simpler to replace one centralized grid with clean energy than to replace the petrol station infrastructure, each gas station on each corner of each street in every town...

 

It then becomes an issue of building one single new power plant, instead of replacing millions of gas stations.

 

Also, if someone has renewable energy available at home, like solar panels on the roof, the cars can just as easily be charged with that.

 

I appreciate the need for clear and critical logic, but there are pretty real and simple solutions already available for many, if not most, of these "obstacles."

 

Excellent points Infi. As the grid gradually gets cleaner, the 'fuel' for EVs automatically does so as well.

No reformulations needed, no annual reformulations for winter/summer blends and the infrastructure is in place right now. Yes, it will eventually need to be beefed up, but the structure exists.