Hidden Energy

[HydrogenBond]

This came to me this morning. I present it not as a statement of fact but as something to think about. Take it with a grain of salt. This consideration has to do with hidden energy in wave addition.

 

The easiest to see are two electrons in an orbital. If they have opposite spin and motion, the magnetic waves cancel so there is no net magnetism coming from the orbital. Even though there is no net magnetism we still have two charges in motion generating magnetic fields. The same zero net magnetic output could also be achieved if both electrons were stationary. Starting at this stationary point, we can add energy to get the two electrons in motion. The motion of their charges generates magnetism, but the system output never changes from net zero. The wave canceling is sort of hiding the energy input.

 

If we could put up a little wall between the two electrons, so the waves can't touch and cancel, one would be able to see the hidden energy reappearing with each of the moving charges revealing magnetism that is related to the amount of energy added. The partition gets rid of wave addition so there is no way to hide the energy.

[UncleAl]

1) Oxygen,

 

Electronic States of Oxygen

 

2) http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf

Dunning-Kruger effect (2000 Ig Nobel Prize): ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge

 

1) Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill.

2) Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others.

3) Incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy.

[HydrogenBond]

This simple experiment came to me later in the day, to help show the affect I was trying to explain. Say we have a pool of water with two wave generators, one at either end of the pool. If the two wave generators are 180 degrees out of phase, the wave crests and troughs of one generator will overlap the troughs and crests of the other. The result will be a canceling of the waves. This areas where the waves cancel will look calm with no gravity potential. Next, if I place a partition in this still area, so the two waves can't cancel, the hidden energy in the stillness will come out.

 

In other words, we are adding 2X energy, X from each wave generator. But the canceling of the waves, if we didn't see the sources, would create the impression there is stillness or no energy going into the system. The 2X energy is hidden in the wave cancelation. When we add the partition, all the hidden energy will return. All of a sudden waves appear. This would be a good special effect. The frame of the camera's focus, cuts out the wave generators and focuses only a calm flat spot. We add a thin partition and the hidden energy comes out of the water.

 

If we go back to an electron orbital with two electrons, we have two wave generators. The waves sort of cancel to hide some of the energy. If we could place a partition then the energy will come back out. This is only theoretical and is easier said than done.

[UncleAl]

Crackpots are baffled by the obvious yet possess a complete understanding of the nonexistent. The greatest obstacle to reality is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge. Reality is not a peer vote.

 

HEY STOOOPID: NATURE DID IT. Bupkis.

http://www.rsbs.anu.edu.au/O2/Images/MO%20oxygen.gif

 

Read the proffered technical references.

Electronic States of Oxygen

[johnfp]

Hey Uncle, great way of promoting constructive conversation on a "public" forum....NOT!

 

Let's put the shoe on the other foot.

 

1) Arrogant individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill.

2) Arrogant individuals fail to recognize genuine skills in others.

3) Arrogant individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy.

 

While everyone may not be able to contribute everything, everyone WILL be able to contribute something.

 

The reason for my defense, is it genuinely seems he though of this on his own without reading about it. That makes him quite a thinker to me. With that, he should be encouraged to think and post not discouraged.

 

Just my humble opinion.

[UncleAl]

Elitism insists the better is preferable to the worse. Uncle Al is an elitist. Revile all you like - you cannot dispute. When a crackpot feels threatened it excretes a foul exudate forming a protective layer of disingenuous stupidity to deflect dissonant facts and beliefs damaging to said crackpot's tender underbelly of pure ignorance. Your snit is that of a child told his red blankie won't make him into Superman. Go head, jump off a roof. Let the universe decide.

 

Any statement contradicting empirical reality is wrong. Anybody who wishes to pursue that false path has no place in the physical sciences or here - and no cause for complaint for either exclusion. Italy, for instance, contains an entire nation-state wholly dedicated to Revealed Truth. Revealed Truth missed Novocaine, said anesthetic requiring a Protestant chemist in 1905.

 

Physical Sciences Forums > Physics and Mathematics

 

Save the word soup to charitably feed the stupid. Can the crap and ship it elsewhere. There is lots of elsewhere - the whole world is drowning in it. Call that a faith-based initiative.

[HydrogenBond]

Maybe the atom and electrons was not the best example. I was using a hypothetical electron s-orbital that can get bigger and bigger. The affect is better displayed in the wave pool with two wave generators.

[johnfp]

Woooaaa, I'm done.

[UncleAl]

I was using a hypothetical electron s-orbital that can get bigger and bigger.

 

IT HAS BEEN DONE

Rydberg atom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It has been done in every imaginable way from wave tanks to optical diffraction to optical hole burning to Bose-Einstein condensate matter lasers.

 

You don't need a license to think, but you do need an education to avoid making a public *** of yourself in any empirical endeavor. More than 100,000 scientists are members of the American Physical Society and the American Chemical Society as you read this. Big Science has existed for more than a half-century. DUE DILIGENCE! Read the refereed literature before, during, and after. If you make a heretical prediction it can violate existing theory but it cannot violate existing observation and be correct.

 

Newton said light falls like everything else. Einstein said it falls with twice the acceleration of local matter. Only one of them can be correct. Theory is a whore - ya gotta look.

 

The Confrontation between General Relativity and Experiment

Section 3.4.1, Figure 5

[gr-qc/9909014] Kinetic Energy and the Equivalence Principle

Amer. J. Phys. 71 770 (2003)

Phys. Rev. Lett. 92 121101 (2004)

Nature 425 374-376 (2003).

 

If going off the handle amuses you, do it in pure math. Mathematics has no empirical constraints, merely a requirement of self-consistency. (A times :) has four valid answers depending on what algebra you adopt.

[Qfwfq]

Theory is a whore - ya gotta look.

Say, Unk, I don't think this is the crucial matter at all about HB's speculation, it is au contraire wanting of more appropriate analysis.

 

Would you mind toning down a spot, especially when you are like a surgeon that amputates the wrong organ?

[HydrogenBond]

Here is how I see it. Magnetism is due to a charge in motion. The electron carries a negative charge and moves at a substantial fraction of the speed of light, within an atom. That adds up to a lot of magnetism, if we treat each electron separately. In atoms we don't see all this, because the waves are adding in such a way it is a nonevent.

 

Let me give different analogy. We have a box. We apply two forces, one on each side of the box. If these forces are equal but opposite in direction there is not net force acting on the box, so it remains stationary. Even with this zero net force there can be deformation. In this example, the difference is between the vector and scalar forces. Most of the affect we see in chemistry is analogous to the vector. We are only concerned about tweaks in the vector around the zero net. I was addressing the scalar. The built in uncertainty within the electron's position or momentum and the ability of electrons to quantum jump between energy levels might be explained with the hidden scaler.

[Qfwfq]

The electron carries a negative charge and moves at a substantial fraction of the speed of light, within an atom.

Not all of them, relativistic corrections are significative only for the innermost orbitals of high-Z atoms, but of course I'm only nitpicking here.

 

That adds up to a lot of magnetism, if we treat each electron separately. In atoms we don't see all this, because the waves are adding in such a way it is a nonevent.

Actually, the magnetic fields are necessary to explain spectrosopic data. What else removes the degeneracy of energy eigenstates? Dipole moments associated with both orbital and intrinsic angular momentum are counted, as necessary.

 

The built in uncertainty within the electron's position or momentum and the ability of electrons to quantum jump between energy levels might be explained with the hidden scaler.

I doubt it, although I still haven't been able to place my finger on which hidden scalar you are talkng about. Heisenberg's is a very fundamental thing, due to the very fact that the description is optical. The old idea that electrons "jump" between energy levels is a very crude notion from the Bohr model, the dynamics are more accurately described by the appropriate Schrödinger equation. In order to conduct a proper analysis based more firmly on fundamental QM, you might find some of the following books helpful:

 

Hypography Science Bookstore - Books - Quantum Physics of Atoms, Molecules, Solids, Nuclei, and Particles

Hypography Science Bookstore - Books - Quantum Mechanics Volumes 1 and 2

Hypography Science Bookstore - Books - Photons and Atoms - Introduction to Quantum Electrodynamics (Wiley Professional)

Hypography Science Bookstore - Books - Atom-Photon Interactions: Basic Processes and Applications (Wiley Science Paperback Series)

Hypography Science Bookstore - Books - An Introduction to Hilbert Space and Quantum Logic (Problem Books in Mathematics)

Hypography Science Bookstore - Books - Atoms In Electromagnetic Fields (World Scientific Series on Atomic, Molecular and Optical Physics)

(This channel of purchase also helps pay for the hosting and maintenance etc. to keep this site running.)

[CHADS]

I dont know if this helps!

 

 

Photons make particles with the same electric charge repel each other and particles with opposite charges attract each other. They drive particles with the same electric charge (such as two electrons, tiny negatively charged fermions) apart, because photons carry momentum.

 

The spin of the electron and proton can be in either direction - in the classical analogy they are rotating clockwise or anticlockwise around a given axis. They may both have their spin oriented in the same direction or in opposite directions. Because of magnetic interactions between the particles, a hydrogen atom that has the spins of the electron and proton aligned in the same direction (parallel) has slightly more energy than one where the spins of the electron and proton are in opposite directions (anti-parallel). The lowest orbital energy state of atomic hydrogen has hyperfine splitting arising from the spins of the proton and electron changing from a parallel to antiparallel configuration. This transition is highly forbidden with an extremely small probability of 2.9×10−15 s−1. This means that the time for a single isolated atom of neutral hydrogen to undergo this transition is around 10 million (107) years and so is unlikely to be seen in a laboratory on Earth.

 

Am i missing the point entirely?