Why do UFO's spin?

[Moontanman]

Moontanman and Paigetheoracle I want to thank ya ll for a honest and open statement from both of you that is all I ask for is for somebody just to have a honest conversation between people about all kinds of different sup jests and still be nice to each other even though we might not agree with each other.We could get so much done in this world if we just try and be nice for a change.If you have never seen a UFO you might be incline not believe but let me clear up something a UFO is that I could not identified the object in front of me that dose not mean it is from another world but I have never seen this before. I have never seen it again but in some UFO pictures I have saw. Thank You for given me this opportunity to tell you how I fell.

 

Thanks wddycus, I am a strange type of skeptic, I would love to see aliens land, I would love to know if there is intelligent life on other planets. On the other hand I see many people making claims that cannot be backed up and insisting on things that are obviously not UFOs as being aliens. I also see some skeptics suggesting silly crap like the UFO that some saw as being a comet! I've been lucky enough to be alive and in a good viewing area to see comets. No matter what any one would like to think comets do not flash across the sky in a few seconds, total silliness! I like to discuss the issue in a calm and scientific manner. If more people approached the subject eyes open and hearts closed we might see something really amazing.

[freeztar]

One night, I was driving down I-5 from Seattle to Olympia. A bright blue ball lit up in the sky and traveled at an angle that bemused me. Furthermore, It moved between the low-lying clouds and took an arc that suggested something other than falling. I was taking Astronomy/Cosmology full-time at this point, so it made for an interesting class discussion. My teacher asked me to make a list of explainable reasons why I would see this. I whittled it down and the only peg I was left with was the bright blue color. My prof explained that meteors can be blue. I asked her if she has ever seen something like I described. She said no.

 

I was trumped. She called me out in front of the whole class.

Years later...

I was driving along GA-316 towards Athens and I saw a brilliant blue meteor fall *all the way across the sky*. I smiled, because my experience years before was visually repeated. My prof was right!!

 

I agree that most people don't look up, but those that do *seriously* have not reported UFO sightings. When I visited Chacos Canyon's observatory with my Astronomy/Cosmology class, both Astronomers teaching and guiding the instruments were absolute in their answers when one of my classmates asked about UFOs and ET. They shook their heads and explained that if there were UFOs, they would be the one's to see it. These people spend their whole life watching the sky.

[Moontanman]

One night, I was driving down I-5 from Seattle to Olympia. A bright blue ball lit up in the sky and traveled at an angle that bemused me. Furthermore, It moved between the low-lying clouds and took an arc that suggested something other than falling. I was taking Astronomy/Cosmology full-time at this point, so it made for an interesting class discussion. My teacher asked me to make a list of explainable reasons why I would see this. I whittled it down and the only peg I was left with was the bright blue color. My prof explained that meteors can be blue. I asked her if she has ever seen something like I described. She said no.

 

I was trumped. She called me out in front of the whole class.

Years later...

I was driving along GA-316 towards Athens and I saw a brilliant blue meteor fall *all the way across the sky*. I smiled, because my experience years before was visually repeated. My prof was right!!

 

I agree that most people don't look up, but those that do *seriously* have not reported UFO sightings. When I visited Chacos Canyon's observatory with my Astronomy/Cosmology class, both Astronomers teaching and guiding the instruments were absolute in their answers when one of my classmates asked about UFOs and ET. They shook their heads and explained that if there were UFOs, they would be the one's to see it. These people spend their whole life watching the sky.

 

Actually there are astronomers who have seen inexplicable things in the sky but no for sure nuts and bolts alien space ships. having said that it is sad that many sighting do indeed start out as things that if the person who saw it had the knowledge or the need to explain it in some other way it probably could be explained that way. On the other hand there are sighting that not only defy explanation but point very strongly in the direction of some type of unknown craft under intelligent control. I'm not sure how to reconcile the reports of this type with the reports of things that if more information was available it would be explained. All I know for sure is they do exist and no reasonable explanation exists for them.

[TheBigDog]

There is no question of the existence of unidentified ______ _______ (Fill in the blanks). It is the debate over the hypothesized explanations that causes the controversy. The human imagination is so powerful that it is difficult to take eyewitness accounts unless they are from large groups. Bigfoot, alien abduction, UFO, Nessie... take the cause of your choice, but be prepared to meet a burden of proof. I have seen many strange things. I am often convinced at first glance that there is something very weird happening, but after further consideration I often realize how wrong that first glance was. Still, there are things that are just too weird and defy any reasonable explanation based on the data I have. But that does not mean I have to leap to a far fetched solution dictated by pop-culture. I think many see these things because they want them to be true, so their brain works on explanations to fit that want. Logical leaps are made to fill the gaps. We all do it, just some of us are more passionate about fulfilling the myth than others; many choose to leap to the non-myth explanation. Call this closed minded, it is much like the logical conclusion to be an atheist.

 

I have seen UFO's, but strictly defined they were flying objects that I could not identify. I am one of the only people I know who had plane silhouette cards for practicing spotting as a teen, so I hold myself to a high standard of spotting flying things.

 

Bill

[Moontanman]

There is no question of the existence of unidentified ______ _______ (Fill in the blanks). It is the debate over the hypothesized explanations that causes the controversy. The human imagination is so powerful that it is difficult to take eyewitness accounts unless they are from large groups. Bigfoot, alien abduction, UFO, Nessie... take the cause of your choice, but be prepared to meet a burden of proof. I have seen many strange things. I am often convinced at first glance that there is something very weird happening, but after further consideration I often realize how wrong that first glance was. Still, there are things that are just too weird and defy any reasonable explanation based on the data I have. But that does not mean I have to leap to a far fetched solution dictated by pop-culture. I think many see these things because they want them to be true, so their brain works on explanations to fit that want. Logical leaps are made to fill the gaps. We all do it, just some of us are more passionate about fulfilling the myth than others; many choose to leap to the non-myth explanation. Call this closed minded, it is much like the logical conclusion to be an atheist.

 

I have seen UFOs, but strictly defined they were flying objects that I could not identify. I am one of the only people I know who had plane silhouette cards for practicing spotting as a teen, so I hold myself to a high standard of spotting flying things.

 

Bill

 

I like to stick with the sightings that are totally inexplicable. Lots of witnesses, radar, professional pilots, military on the ground and in the air. Nuts and bolts craft, no way it could be one of ours, that sort of thing. Yes they are out there but most skeptics don't allow themselves to get caught up in such sightings, too difficult to explain away as comets or thrown hub caps. I too am pretty good at spotting aircraft and that has served me well in avoiding actually seeing something I couldn't explain. Lights in the sky mean nothing either. I would like to see a real investigation of these inexplicable sightings with so much information they are embarrassing. too often they are swept under the rug and never discussed in favor of sightings that are easier to dismiss.

[paigetheoracle]

Be nice Paige, I happen to be very interested in UFOs but making the assumption they all spin or even that some of them spin is not very accurate. Spinning is a trait associated with only a small number of craft. Even the disk shape is not part of all or even most sightings. Many are cigar shaped triangle shaped but most are random lights and glowing globe shapes that don't conform to the spinning disk at all.

 

I am being nice! Some people took the Mickey and I've just returned the compliment: No harm done I would have thought unless you're thinking of a few bruised egos.

[paigetheoracle]

Seeing something does not necessarily make it real. What looks like an oasis in the dessert may be a mirage.

 

 

 

I have. Furthermore, you could test to see if the people in this forum are real. You could get their addresses, go to their house, and talk with them. We can't say the same for UFOs.

 

According to the evidence what can we say but that 'some' spin (filmed/ reported doing so). Looking at known flying objects - birds and insects have wings or membranes for gliding. Man made objects have rotors (helicopters/ autogiro's), jets and propellers plus wings or gas filled skins (balloons). Then of course there are rockets. So why should UFO's (If they are vehicles) not have different methods of propulsion and appearance as well?

 

The question is not do UFO's exist but what are they and are they physically real? (More than just visual projections like mirages). I remember hearing that mirages are actually based upon real but distant objects that appear close by because the heat haze acts as a magnification device. That this could also be true for UFO's has also been put forward as a theory (From other dimensions/ across vast distances of space as probes because the distance is too great for living things to traverse).

 

A lot of things exist that are not physically real (Lacking 3-D form/ touchable) but we don't dismiss them: Emotions and thoughts for instance are subjectively real, even if not objectively real - take them away and you would have no conversation or entertainment etc. What proof is there that a layman could accept that planets have now been discovered in outer space or that atoms exist? They take these things on 'trust' another subjective reality. If it wasn't for technology, the only evidence that the man in the street has that science exists is theory they can't personally verify (Gobbledygook - words, words, words).

 

All the evidence through films and eye witness accounts indicate a visual phenomena (light on film or on the eye) and on the ground with close encounters, some kind of electro-magnetic phenomena, that distorts reality as in a dream (The Oz Factor, Jenny Randles/ The Electric Universe Theory - Wally Thornhill amongst others (including Albert Buddens work too): I mention him as he's got a website on it that I know of, so it can be followed up by interested parties/ Quantam reality as opposed to Newtonian physics, which is always thrown up as a defence against this non meat and potatoes reality or matter versus energy, yet where does matter come from where dos energy go? (The attraction of opposites)).

 

All I'm trying to say is what does the phenomena tell us about itself, if we accept it at face value as scientists, engineers and other interested and 'reasoning' parties.

 

From my own personal experience I see a link between my own 'SEP' episode (mentioned on another thread in the Strange claims forum), Bedroom visitors (Hypnopompic and hypnogogic visitations) and lucid dreams (hyper-real/emotionally charged). It's like a chain leading into and out of my world into this one. Interestingly sleep deprivation leads to hallucinations or projection into the outer world, what has not been allowed to develop within. This whole thing leads to the question of what is real, especially when psychosis and imagination comes into the equation. This world is solid mass but could this other one that impinges on it but just pure energy? (potential as opposed to actual).

 

Anyway what I have to say about this site is that you have to prove with your mind, what you've experienced with your body (Ground it in reality, like an errant balloon floating off in any direction the wind takes it).:thumbs_up

[wddycus]

It is not that hard not to believe in UFO at this time in history. We have learn so much in just the past 50 years. If another world started 1 billion years ahead of us just think where they would be. Some of our Universes are 1 to 5 billion years older then us and maybe they did not have to start over 2 or 3 times like we did. Their are so much of the unknown still to be Discover and so little time for each person to contribute to this melting pot we are all in. This UFO that I saw was a object it was silver in color it look like a very big round air plane that we could not hear even though we were so close to it. I hope one day they will contact us and let us be able to communicate with them but I believe they will wait until we grow up and stop killing each other over Power and Money.

[paigetheoracle]

It is not that hard not to believe in UFO at this time in history. We have learn so much in just the past 50 years. If another world started 1 billion years ahead of us just think where they would be. Some of our Universes are 1 to 5 billion years older then us and maybe they did not have to start over 2 or 3 times like we did. Their are so much of the unknown still to be Discover and so little time for each person to contribute to this melting pot we are all in. This UFO that I saw was a object it was silver in color it look like a very big round air plane that we could not hear even though we were so close to it. I hope one day they will contact us and let us be able to communicate with them but I believe they will wait until we grow up and stop killing each other over Power and Money.

 

You might like to look at my pictures in the social groups, under 'Who else believes in UFO's?' (Yours I believe)

[alexander]

I was reading through, figured i'd express my opinion on some of these things :)

 

It is not that hard not to believe in UFO at this time in history

You know, it's not that hard to believe in god at this time in history either, doesn't make it any more real, nor does it mean that we should readily believe in anything. Honestly, i don't have a problem with either people, but if you are trying to keep an "open" mind, then you can not discount the possibility that UFOs may not quite be real either...

 

Having that said my view on this phenomenon:

 

There there are over 100 billion galaxies in our visible universe, each contains anywhere from 10 million to 1 trillion stars, each star may have up to, and probably over 10 planets. This means that there are, for sake of discussion, using average amount of stars in a cluster: [math]10^{11}*10^{9}[/math] solar systems out there... thats 10^20 systems that may potentially have at least one planet that is capable of sustaining life, we are one of 10^20, and admit it, there is a hell of a chance there fore being more then one more earthy planets out there. And that is a hell of a chance... Having that said, touching on the topic of this "UFO" phenomenon. Why do we always assume that "alien" means that they are a supremely more intelligent then us? Why do we think that some bored out of their mind aliens will jump into a circular UFO and fly a gazillion light years to observe us? Do you really think we are THAT special? and why is it most of the time around object that spins? we send lots of crap to space, do you recall anything being disk-like? wait, oh right, we tend to send missile-like things up there, because of air friction, and such.... And another thing, why do we assume that they are always a superior race that can easily wipe us off the earth, but they just dont want to intervene in our development. If there were other civilizations out there, that frequently visit, don't you think that by now we woulda gotten enslaved or something, or are all aliens somehow nice? And lastly, if you give them the kinds of technologies that change the physics, such as antigravity, why then do we still see their craft. It would seem to be a hell of a lot easier for them to stay totally invisible to us, and one would assume that that kind of tech would be developed quicker then the antigravity ray...

 

My take on sightings: 9/8 the sightings are faked, 3/4 of what is left, are experimental earthly craft, and 3/4 of what is left from that, are equipment malfunction and products of imagination, what is left, i would leave as UFO investigation-worthy, but still it nowhere near guarantees that those wont be a physical phenomenon, or won't fall in another otherwise explicable phenomenon.

[freeztar]

Anyway what I have to say about this site is that you have to prove with your mind, what you've experienced with your body (Ground it in reality, like an errant balloon floating off in any direction the wind takes it).:shrug:

 

Which is exactly what I was getting at. ;)

There are hundreds of sites out there where people believe in UFOs. A science site is not a likely place to find those people.

 

It is not that hard not to believe in UFO at this time in history. We have learn so much in just the past 50 years. If another world started 1 billion years ahead of us just think where they would be. Some of our Universes are 1 to 5 billion years older then us and maybe they did not have to start over 2 or 3 times like we did. Their are so much of the unknown still to be Discover and so little time for each person to contribute to this melting pot we are all in.

 

If you do the math, you might not find it as likely. Just to contact a planet 1 million light years away would take...1 million light years. Realistic travel time would take much, much longer than that. Are humans even going to be around in 1 million years?

[Moontanman]

While I like this thread i have already addressed many of the reasons UFOs cannot be real alien space craft or that they require technology far in advance of our own in another thread. If we are to study this or any phenomenon you first have to find information. Sightings that contain very little information other than I saw something odd in the sky cannot be investigated with any real certainty. But there are sightings that defy any real explanation and have an embarrassing amount of information. These sightings are what we need to really be investigating. As for spinning UFOs, the first reported UFOs were not characterized as even being disk shaped much less spinning. I think the idea of throwing a hub cap or a Frisbee is the root of the spinning UFO. When I hear the UFO was spinning I immediately become cautious as to the veracity of the sighting. I don't discount it completely but it does raise flags. Too bad I can't make a living investigating UFOs, at the very least I would be totally impartial.

[paigetheoracle]

I was reading through, figured i'd express my opinion on some of these things :)

 

 

You know, it's not that hard to believe in god at this time in history either, doesn't make it any more real, nor does it mean that we should readily believe in anything. Honestly, i don't have a problem with either people, but if you are trying to keep an "open" mind, then you can not discount the possibility that UFOs may not quite be real either...

 

Having that said my view on this phenomenon:

 

There there are over 100 billion galaxies in our visible universe, each contains anywhere from 10 million to 1 trillion stars, each star may have up to, and probably over 10 planets. This means that there are, for sake of discussion, using average amount of stars in a cluster: [math]10^{11}*10^{9}[/math] solar systems out there... thats 10^20 systems that may potentially have at least one planet that is capable of sustaining life, we are one of 10^20, and admit it, there is a hell of a chance there fore being more then one more earthy planets out there. And that is a hell of a chance... Having that said, touching on the topic of this "UFO" phenomenon. Why do we always assume that "alien" means that they are a supremely more intelligent then us? Why do we think that some bored out of their mind aliens will jump into a circular UFO and fly a gazillion light years to observe us? Do you really think we are THAT special? and why is it most of the time around object that spins? we send lots of crap to space, do you recall anything being disk-like? wait, oh right, we tend to send missile-like things up there, because of air friction, and such.... And another thing, why do we assume that they are always a superior race that can easily wipe us off the earth, but they just dont want to intervene in our development. If there were other civilizations out there, that frequently visit, don't you think that by now we woulda gotten enslaved or something, or are all aliens somehow nice? And lastly, if you give them the kinds of technologies that change the physics, such as antigravity, why then do we still see their craft. It would seem to be a hell of a lot easier for them to stay totally invisible to us, and one would assume that that kind of tech would be developed quicker then the antigravity ray...

 

My take on sightings: 9/8 the sightings are faked, 3/4 of what is left, are experimental earthly craft, and 3/4 of what is left from that, are equipment malfunction and products of imagination, what is left, i would leave as UFO investigation-worthy, but still it nowhere near guarantees that those wont be a physical phenomenon, or won't fall in another otherwise explicable phenomenon.

 

With regards to not seeing UFO's, scientists in Pune (India Daily report from February 16th, 2005)from the Indian Defence Research Organization, state that they could be invisible through electromagnetic flux influences, which slip on exit and entry to the atmosphere (According to the report the Russians are working on similar stealth technology at present).

 

As for coming here - life draws life (If we conquer space, then dead planets won't be our objective, except as hopping off points to other places or for resources and then not large scale colonization). What propulsion they use to get here is as likely to be understandable to us as plane mechanics are to people living in mud huts - please don't be so arrogant as to believe our primitive knowledge and technology is the greatest thing since sliced bread because it isn't and stops us advancing as much as the inquisition stopped people like Gallileo.

 

Perhaps we are enslaved but like in The Matrix, maybe the control is so subtle we miss it. Other scenarios exist apart from large scale invasion - for instance scientific investigation that leaves the majority of the population ignorant and a small amount prodded and mystified as to what is going on (Do bird watchers paint themselves dayglo pink and jump up and down shouting at the birds to show themselves? No, because it doesn't work: Do weekend hunters? Yes because they want to be seen by fellow humans, not mistaken for game and shot). Motive leads to certain actions and away from others. Would the Klingons have developed their own technology for space travel? No, they would have probably stolen it unlike more advanced races but being technologically advanced doesn't stop warfare, just makes it more sophisticated).

 

As for God - it depends upon what you define it or him/her as. If it's all existence, then God is within you and all around you. If you think of God as some external force, then you're on the way to avoiding responsibility for your own life and becoming a follower, not self-led (Someone to blame for your own failures). Well that's my opinion anyway.

[alexander]

As for God - it depends upon what you define it or him/her as. If it's all existence, then God is within you and all around you. If you think of God as some external force, then you're on the way to avoiding responsibility for your own life and becoming a follower, not self-led (Someone to blame for your own failures). Well that's my opinion anyway.

 

I won't discuss this topic, like politics, unless you are going to approach it with an open mind, if you really want to go into it, pm me.

 

Russians are working on similar stealth technology at present

lol, i assure you they are not the only ones who are

 

The again, Russians picked up the scram jet project, they are still developing ekranoplans, hopefully still developing ever-more reliable rocket boosters, and still make some of the most innovative and, call me byist, best, in terms of reliability and performance, weapons, in the world.... Those crazy bastards :hihi:

 

What propulsion they use to get here is as likely to be understandable to us as plane mechanics are to people living in mud huts

lol, perhaps, though practice shows, sometimes the solution so much simpler then it has ever believed to have to be... also, whoever says that they propell themselves with advanced systems anyways? they could just jump from one point in the universe to another (according to quantum mechanics, its possible and apparently happens on the quantum level all the time anyways)

 

instance scientific investigation that leaves the majority of the population ignorant

yes, well problem is that science describes things, if a scientiffic investigation explained the phenomenon, perhaps it was not, as those open minded people may think, what it was though to be... I find more open minded people believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories, and it seems that you can make them believe those theories rather easily. You are talking about the same group of open minded people, who believe that the twin towers were a covered up CIA operation, and that somebody paid Princes Diana's driver to crash...

 

And once again, don't take me wrong on this, i am not a pro anything person, i like to look at things rationally, and sometimes find myself pondering the rationality of those decisions to not be too byist(sp?), for hours, till my nose starts bleeding... (literaly)

So, i try not to be too byist in this thread, i did start off by attempting to describe that there is more likely then not, another planet with creatures of a sort there. But first of all, when i read the name of this thread, i could not help to think

"Why do UFOs spin?" .... "maybe aliens are trying to get that spinning sensation?".

 

I see your frustration of not being taken seriously, but you have to understand that this is a science forum, we don't believe anything until proven, by default, not a case of innocent till proven guilty, no; guilty, until mathematically proven that innocent makes sense, and guilty just does not work in the current model...

[paigetheoracle]

I won't discuss this topic, like politics, unless you are going to approach it with an open mind, if you really want to go into it, pm me.

 

(1) I might just do that.

 

lol, i assure you they are not the only ones who are :shrug:

 

(2) I know that too.

 

The again, Russians picked up the scram jet project, they are still developing ekranoplans, hopefully still developing ever-more reliable rocket boosters, and still make some of the most innovative and, call me byist, best, in terms of reliability and performance, weapons, in the world.... Those crazy bastards ;)

 

(3) Yes they are because , like every military dictatorship, they ruin their own economy by pursuing defence, to the detriment of nearly everything else in their economy. Look at Burma's fear of letting in aid at the moment - they'd rather let the whole country die from the disaster, than risk it being exploited by outsiders.

 

lol, perhaps, though practice shows, sometimes the solution so much simpler then it has ever believed to have to be... also, whoever says that they propell themselves with advanced systems anyways? they could just jump from one point in the universe to another (according to quantum mechanics, its possible and apparently happens on the quantum level all the time anyways)

 

(4) Both these points are brilliant - the latter has been proposed before in UFO circles and as for the former, the blindingly obvious is usually the answer and missed because people are expecting/ wanting something else (You can lead Horst to slaughter but you cannot make him think). To me, I always found rockets fired straight up into space primitive (since the sixties at least) and am amazed that spiral trajectories are not used for vehicles going up (like planes) as well as coming down: Think of the fuel needed to defy gravity by this method, compared to what a conventional craft uses to reach the upper atmosphere as in test flights to the outer edges of space (Reasonable people will give you excuses why it has to be this way (defence of the old) and why the novel (new/pioneering) way is impractical but only experience belies the truth).

 

 

yes, well problem is that science describes things, if a scientiffic investigation explained the phenomenon, perhaps it was not, as those open minded people may think, what it was though to be... I find more open minded people believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories, and it seems that you can make them believe those theories rather easily. You are talking about the same group of open minded people, who believe that the twin towers were a covered up CIA operation, and that somebody paid Princes Diana's driver to crash...

 

(5) Well that's not me - I believe in human foibles (pilot error) and folly in most cases (drunk driver/ poorly designed building) and it is in the interest of those involved to cover up their mistakes, to keep up public belief in their abilities (George Bush/ The original Brinks Mat robbery).

 

And once again, don't take me wrong on this, i am not a pro anything person, i like to look at things rationally, and sometimes find myself pondering the rationality of those decisions to not be too byist(sp?), for hours, till my nose starts bleeding... (literaly)

So, i try not to be too byist in this thread, i did start off by attempting to describe that there is more likely then not, another planet with creatures of a sort there. But first of all, when i read the name of this thread, i could not help to think

"Why do UFOs spin?" .... "maybe aliens are trying to get that spinning sensation?".

 

(6) Maybe I should have entitled the thread "Why do 5.4% of UFO's appear to spin?"

 

I see your frustration of not being taken seriously, but you have to understand that this is a science forum, we don't believe anything until proven, by default, not a case of innocent till proven guilty, no; guilty, until mathematically proven that innocent makes sense, and guilty just does not work in the current model...

 

(7) That's certainly how it should be but see the human foible quote above. Also this applies to the mind or subjective reality as well as nuts and bolts reality - what tactics work and how? Are we kidding ourselves/ being kidded? Does the car work or have we been sold a lemon? In society the equivalent of scientific thinking is lawful, reasoned thought as opposed to criminal (Does this idea and its execution work, making society a better place or is it a fallacy, the equivalent of a rickety bridge, once stood on that will collapse, revealing nothing underneath to support the proposition? Engineering of the mind - creative or destructive, progressive or regressive?).:)

 

[paigetheoracle]

To finish off this subject, I shall make some odd points.

 

Firstly, science is about analysis, not reaction. it is easy to dismiss an argument by saying it doesn't make sense because it means you don't have to search further for answers. Reaction is shutting the door on enquiry (ignoring the facts). To quote Sherlock Holmes ' When you've eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, 'no matter how improbable', must be the truth'. Reaction stops you learning as analysis is being open and letting in the light of experience (fresh ideas/ data). Innocense allows progress (creativity/ discovery/ invention)), guilt (knowledge) stops it - Alexander please note: Scientific method or defence of the faith? (The Inquisition and Gallileo).

 

All we can be sure of is effect. The cause of things can be many and various in appearance (All roads lead to Rome/ You have the corpse or injury but who or what caused the condition/ situation, how, when, where and why have yet to be disclosed and proven - that is the (forensic) science of it/ the scientific detective story that must be unearthed ('And yet it moves' Gallileo).

 

Experiencers 'know' there is something in the subject - armchair critics don't because their data is second hand. ('Any truth is better than indefinite doubt' Sherlock Holmes again): Theory versus reality. 'It is easier to know it than to explain why I know it. If you were asked to prove that 2 and 2 made 4, you might find some difficulty, and yet you are quite sure of the fact' (Sherlock Holmes). 'It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts'.

 

Conspiracy theorists doubt man landed on the moon and how are you going to convince them otherwise, unless you stick them in a rocket and blast them up there yourselves, and even then they could convince themselves it was a trick, done to deceive them (It's all belief): The photo's shown to the public could be fakes, made in a studio, either because the quality of the ones shot in the lunar landscape weren't very good or didn't come out. The photographic arguments, like those for Lee Harvey Oswald's shot of him holding a rifle sound convincing (shadows in wrong direction for his face when compared to rest of picture).

 

With regards to the magnetic flux argument, Linda Crystal in her books, insist only hers are genuine because of this force field effect, saying only fogged pictures are real because of this effect (If it's clear, it's faked being her argument).

 

You say this is a science site and physical proof needs to be provided. What I and others like me are saying is that the nuts and bolts argument misses the philosophical one and that is that 'belief' holds a prominent part in what is held up as true or dismissed as false, which has nothing to do with the facts of the case but is surely behind what people do with them.

 

The effect of UFO interaction leaves people overawed or traumatized, like a car accident. To ask them to prove something genuine occurred is like a policeman trying to get the facts from a witness. They may be so thrown by the incident that they can't give you the details and maybe not even recall them because of the way such things throw the mind into confusion. Clear thought is the prerogative of the calm and unruffled, not the worn torn or shocked.

 

As for the effects generated by such sitings - immersive thrill rides or Imax 3-D screenings of films, could explain why they seem so real but may not be or even tell us something about what we assume reality truly is (The Matrix/ Hindu 'Maya'). For all we know, we could just be reality junkies, lost in the illusion that the tricks our minds are playing, actually mean what we are perceiving is genuine, when it isn't:evil:

[Moontanman]

I think the question "Why do UFOs spin" is a flawed question to begin with. I am not a true believer but I do think the UFO phenomenon needs to be investigated. Why is it a flawed question? Mainly I see no evidence in UFOs that they all spin or that even a majority spin. Even the ones that are described as disk or oval shaped seldom are described as spinning. I can think of a reason for disk shaped craft to spin but that doesn't mean they all spin or even most.

 

I do think the UFO phenomenon is so full of BS and people who are also filled with BS it's difficult to winnow out the wheat from the chaff. The is the main reason it's so difficult to take a fleeting sighting at face value.

 

Having said that there are indeed some sightings that flat out defy explanation, they have a huge amount of data from impeccable witnesses and are detected on radar, have pics, multiple witnesses in the air on the ground and some trained military observers.

 

While the fleeting lone person type sighting may really be true it's impossible to really make a call on such a sighting. Far to many skeptics concentrate on any sighting than can be explained away easily or resort to ridicule to destroy the credibility of the witness.

 

Far to many skeptics are so ignorant about celestial objects I rate them on the same level as the guys who see very light in the night sky as alien visitors.

 

I am almost completely sure something important has to be at the root of UFOs, it may indeed be alien visitors or something natural or even something about the human mind, but something is going on. We need to give it serious study to find out. Pointing fingers and making claims and accusations will not prove anything.