Reason died with Socrates

[nutronjon]

The days of Pericles of Athens, were the height of Athenian democracy. By the time of Socrates, Athens was decaying, and he warned with his death, Athens would die and it did. What happened? One thing that happened is power went to the Athenians' heads, and they changed public education to teach technological correctness, replicating the power structure and enlarging it to rule over growing colonies. This tends to split cultures into different classes, a ruling elite and ignorant subjects. It also results in the entropy of knowledge.

 

Even in modern, industrial countries with mass media, the ignorant subjects outnumber those who fit into the ruling elite circles. For Athenians and Socrates, this meant passionate superstition verses learned reasoning. Socrates was ordered to drink hemlock for questioning the gods and misleading youth. They feared angering the gods, and what the people would do if they no longer feared the gods. While Socrates was offering them something much better. He was offering them the power of reason.

 

It has been said, reason did not die with Socrates. I will argue it did. Athens fell and never regained its glory. It would have been completely forgotten if Arabs had not preserved both Greek and Roman documents. Because men like Cicero studied in Athens and brought the reasoning to Rome, it was preserved awhile longer, and was mixed with superior Roman political organization. But Romans never did embrace philosophy as the men of Athens had embraced philosophy. Rome was more practical, like the US, and pursued things that made a profit, not philosophy and learning for the sake of learning, not knowledge for the making of prophets.

 

As we know, when Rome became weak, Christianity became strong, and the technology of past civilizations was almost completely lost. The bible is not a book preserving science and math. The wisdom of the bible is transmitted through parables and myths, and unfortunately is transmitted in such a way as to prevent progress, with warnings against learning too much, and claims that all we need to know is in the bible, and encouraging fear of supernatural beings of good and evil. When Rome fell all that was left to civilize the barbaric frontier, was Christianity and it came with ignorance and superstition, not the technology, science and math, that was lost.

 

Had it not been for the crusades and warriors returning to Romanized Europe with the ancient Greek and Roman documents, and the increased knowledge that was the work of Arabs in astrology, math and science, humanity might not be where it is today. For hundreds of years Aristotle and Plato played a very strong role in the Christian domination of Europe. Literate meant literate in Greek and Roman classics from this period through the early years of the US democracy. So, we can be thankful, reason was resurrected, but for hundreds of years, its was dead in the superstitious Christian realm. It was men such as Galileo and Newton who finally revived reason enough to bring us to where we are today.

[Tormod]

There have been slightly more than two philosophers in this world.

 

Here is an incomplete list of Greek and Roman philosophers up to the 5th century.

[nutronjon]

There have been slightly more than two philosophers in this world.

 

Here is an incomplete list of Greek and Roman philosophers up to the 5th century.

 

Were you meaning to contribute information or start an argument (discussion)? (This is an incerted after thought. Whatever your intentions I am thrilled about how it has effected my thinking.)

 

I mentioned 3 Greek philosophers, Aristotle and Plato who played important roles in our Christian understanding of God, and Plato, Aristotle and Socrates who played important roles in our understanding of democracy. Of course Pythagoras is extremely important in helping us get to scientific, rather then superstitious thinking, although he did have some strange ideas.

 

Atomism is a philosophical view that developed in Greece during the 400's B.C. and Socrates refused to get caught up in these discussions of things that get smaller and smaller. Socrates lived from around 469 to 399 B.C. and Cicero lived from 106 to 43 B.C.. Athens fell under Sparta rule in 404 B.C. but remained the cultural center until Austinains closed the schools of philosophy in 529 A.D.. That is a long time after the death of Socrates, but Athens under Sparta rule was no longer the democracy Athens once was. Oh, dear- this is getting complicated as the Athens democracy was an imitation of Sparta, but different from Sparta in very important ways.

 

Now I have to say the US was once the Athens of the modern world, and Germany was the Sparta of the modern world, and today the US is the Sparta of the modern world. Now everything I said is so complex comprehension is lost. :Exclamati

[nutronjon]

This is one of many times when my writing takes me to unintended places. If Socrates was born in 469 B.C. he would have been 65 when Athens fell under Sparta rule and 70 when he was ordered to drink the hemlock, right? That means for those last 5 years, he was not living in the democracy that existed when he was born, and this makes his death very political doesn't it? I have read nothing explaining this, so figure my difficulty with math, has led me to figure wrongly. If I didn't figure wrongly, there is a book to be written explaining what happened to Athens from the time Socrates was born to the day he died.

[freeztar]

That's quite a stretch for a comparison, imho.

 

What about Diogenes?

 

Diogenes believed human beings live artificially and hypocritically and would do well to study the dog. Besides performing natural bodily functions in public without unease, a dog will eat anything, and make no fuss about where to sleep. Dogs live in the present without anxiety, and have no use for the pretensions of abstract philosophy. In addition to these virtues, dogs are thought to know instinctively who is friend and who is foe. Unlike human beings who either dupe others or are duped, dogs will give an honest bark at the truth.

[nutronjon]

That's quite a stretch for a comparison, imho.

 

What about Diogenes?

 

Well I think Diogenes opinion of dogs is excessive. I walk a dog daily, and it does not instinctively know friend from foe. Some dogs attack and others don't. Some dogs attempt to dominate and others tend towards submission, and some are just more tolerant than others. The lack of reasoning ability is surely problematic and provides the reasoning for keeping dogs on leashes. I have trained my dog to stay to the right of the bike path, but I am sure my dog does not understand the reasoning for this, and has not decided to stay to the right to avoid being hit by a bike. It just knows I am displeased when it goes to the left and almost gets hit by a bike, and it wants to please me. It is this pleasing quality in dogs that has resulted in so many of us owning them. In the dog pack, this submision plays an important role in survival.

 

The human ability to reason is very slow in developing and our opinion of our intelligence is greatly exagerated. I can remember vividly trying to teach my daughter the rules for her own protection and her rebellious attitude towards "my rules and attempts to control her". When the police reported they had picked her up because she was passed out drunk in front of a 7/11 store, and appeared to have been raped, I am afraid I was not as compassionate as she would have liked. I used this moment to impress upon her the importance of understanding the rules as her own rules for her own protection, and took to a doctor who gave her medication to induse her menstral flow before a sperm has a chance to attach to her. Unlike the dog that can not understand the reasoning of the rules, humans can, but that understanding sure takes a long, long time to develop. In fact little progress is made, until the human becomes a parent of rebellious teenagers, and then a light begins to turn on.

 

What is the "stretch for a comparison"? I have no clue what you are refering to.

[freeztar]

Oh, I wasn't ready for that. I'm so sorry to hear that Nutronjon. :Exclamati

It saddens me very deeply to hear of these travesties committed by humans. :thumbs_do

 

In regards to the stretch of comparison, I was referring to this statement you made:

 

Now I have to say the US was once the Athens of the modern world, and Germany was the Sparta of the modern world, and today the US is the Sparta of the modern world.

[nutronjon]

Oh that, I am referring to the change in public education and the cultural ramifications. Interestingly the democracy of Athens and the democracy of the US progressed about the same in the same period of time. With defensive wars, flipping into aggressive wars and the misuse of military might.

There is also the progression from diversified power in the beginning of the democracies, to concentrated power at the end. The economic drive also has parallels, from rapidly flourishing economies, to economic systems dependent on military might that lead to the down fall of Athens and could lead to the down fall of the US. A technological break through in energy would be a blessing right now, and I am hoping the development of algae based fuel is the solution. But I digress from the subject.

 

Back on subject is education being focused on technological correctness and the expansion of power over new regions. Cultures are kind of like amoebas. The grow and consume what is around them and that which can not be consumed is rejected as foreign to the amoeba. The amoeba and culture has organize information essential to replicating self. Neither Athens nor the US began with that, because democracy is a new species in the process of being shaped by its environment, until its identity is organized and consolidated and confirmed by its own existence. Winning a major war against a strong opponent is very confirming. It is during this time of conflict that self identity becomes, and then something to defend and replicate through education for technological correctness. Unfortunately this destroys the amoeba of democracy, because it causes entropy, and you get a strong defense system, but not spirit, the essence of the organism, is not the same.

 

This involves Sparta and Germany, because Athens democracy is an imitation of Sparta's political organization with serious differences. Sparta was the first military/socialist state. All males had to enlist in the military and these people shared decision making. However, their only responsibility was to the military. This organization determined all Spartan needs and provided all of the needs, by enslaving their neighbors, and outsoursing their labor. Unlike Athens which diversified political power for military reasons, but never so completely organized around military service, Athens never did so much to provide individual needs or control individual decisions. This explanation is toooo long...fast forward- The Prussians organized Germany around the military, and when the US adopted Prussian military bureaucracy applied to citizens and the German model of education for technology for military and industrial purpose, it became the new Sparta.

[nutronjon]

Good greif sometimes an idea drops flat and sometimes it sparks several other ideas. I want to return to Diogenes and this should perhaps be a new thread? Just the other day I was wondering if we harm our children's natural development when you push language on them. You know how our minds chatter and how we can be overwhelmed by this constant chattering, most of it pretty useless worrying about tomorrow, or about what someone will think, or what all do we need to consider before buying a house and using the new towel set we are saving for that new house, or whatever, just chatter. If we didn't have language our minds couldn't chatter so much, but would be as a dog's response to immediate environmental stimulations. Perhaps an extended period of not having language is an important phase of brain development that should not be shut down with language?

[modest]

While I like the analogy of your OP, I think there are good examples of reasoned enlightenment after Socrates. Particularly after Alexander the Great there are examples like Alexandria with its library and lighthouse. Yes - I'd say there are fine examples of social reason in the Hellenistic period.

 

I don't think I'm disagreeing with you exactly. Particularly on the point of how the fall of Rome and the rise of Christianity caused the loss of not only Roman understanding (which is often talked about) but Greek philosophy and science as well. But, I think a lot of what was lost came from the Hellenistic age. That era was instrumental to skepticism and stoicism - and yes, even neoplatonism.

 

-modest

[nutronjon]

While I like the analogy of your OP, I think there are good examples of reasoned enlightenment after Socrates. Particularly after Alexander the Great there are examples like Alexandria with its library and lighthouse. Yes - I'd say there are fine examples of social reason in the Hellenistic period.

 

I don't think I'm disagreeing with you exactly. Particularly on the point of how the fall of Rome and the rise of Christianity caused the loss of not only Roman understanding (which is often talked about) but Greek philosophy and science as well. But, I think a lot of what was lost came from the Hellenistic age. That era was instrumental to skepticism and stoicism - and yes, even neoplatonism.

 

-modest

 

Okay, I really appreciate your comments. Now we have something to discuss, but unfortunately, my great grandson is with me, and he is too demanding of attention for me to concentrate on deep subjects. And to be honest, I have to look into what you said, because I really don't know much, except the Greeks got us on the path of science, and off the path of superstitious despots, and our democracy is at risk if we do not start remembering the past. Science has taken some people to an extreme that is dangerous. Being technological smart but unwise, is not a good thing. I think it is a serious mistake to limit our thinking to science, and not add to that, history and philosophy.