"Electromagnetic waves" do NOT EXIST!!!

[martillo]

"Electromagnetic waves" do NOT EXIST!!!

 

Demonstration: Electromagnetic waves do not exist

 

NOTE:

The "waves equation" is a linear differential equation of second order and so only two solutions are possible: infinite planes with constant electric and magnetic fields in the entire plane! Not any other kind of solution is accepted.

[Jay-qu]

This is just silly and wrong.

 

The solutions give spherical plane waves that move with velocity c.

 

This is a classical theory, which works very well when considering macroscopic (and some microscopic systems if you are careful). It isnt until you get down to a small level that the nature of the discreteness of the EM field becomes evident.

 

Moving to strange claims.

[martillo]

Sorry but you are totally wrong and being silly.

The possible solutions to the second order differential equation for the "electromagnetic waves" derived from Maxwell's equations are two plane waves one moving in one direction and the other in the opposit direction:

E(x,t) = E(kx-vt)

B(x,t) = B(kx-vt)

 

Actually (kx +/- vt)

 

Review the math of them!

 

Now, if I'm right are you going to move the thread back to the Physics and Math forum?

[ronthepon]

Sorry but you are totally wrong and being silly.

The possible solutions to the second order differential equation for the "electromagnetic waves" derived from Maxwell's equations are two plane waves one moving in one direction and the other in the opposit direction:

E(x,t) = E(kx-vt)

B(x,t) = B(kx-vt)

 

Actually (kx +/- vt)

 

Review the math of them!

 

Now, if I'm right are you going to move the thread back to the Physics and Math forum?

Um, Isn't that for a... like... one-D consideration only?

 

:hihi:

[martillo]

ronthepon:

 

Um, Isn't that for a... like... one-D consideration only?

No, they are the general solutions wich are independent of the "y" and "z" coordinates what means infinite plane waves.

 

Come on, haven't you ever heard about "plane electromagnetic waves"?

 

I can't believe this...

[ronthepon]

Let me take a moment to get to wiki about this.

 

Electromagnetic radiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

They've got a derivation similar to the one I'd studied.

 

What they get to after some derivation is:

[math]\nabla^2 E = \mu_0 \epsilon_0 \frac {\partial^2}{\partial t^2}E[/math]

and

[math]\nabla^2 B = \mu_0 \epsilon_0 \frac {\partial^2}{\partial t^2}B[/math]

 

your solution:

E(x,t) = E(kx-vt)

B(x,t) = B(kx-vt)

 

applies if we consider only the x coordinate.

 

Try applying the thing in polar, with 'r'. What do you get? Take a moment to derive the result yourself.

 

 

Come on, haven't you ever heard about "plane electromagnetic waves"?

 

I can't believe this...

Whaile yeah, I have heard... I really don't know what's unbelieveable. :D

[Jay-qu]

I ask you to consider Ron's post carefully, this is what I am getting at.

[CraigD]

"Electromagnetic waves" do NOT EXIST!!!

 

Demonstration: Electromagnetic waves do not exist

 

NOTE:

The "waves equation" is a linear differential equation of second order and so only two solutions are possible: infinite planes with constant electric and magnetic fields in the entire plane! Not any other kind of solution is accepted.

Rather than approach this claim by suggesting an error in Maxwell's equations and other generally accepted descriptions of electromagnetism, I think it’s more useful to consider the proposed alternative.

 

 

The offered webpage Electromagnetic waves do not exist is part of a larger document, “A New Light in Physics”. With regards to light, this document proposes a simple Emission theory of light, in which the speed of light in vacuum is not constant, but depends of the speed of its emitter relative to its receiver.

 

As the preceding wikipedia link summarizes, despite the long history of emission theories (Newton’s ca. 1700 “corpuscle theory” being among the best known), by around 1920, their failure when compared to experimental data largely eliminated them from serious scientific consideration.

 

Most sources describing the history and present-day rejection of emission theories summarize objections to them in terms of experimental data available around 1900 and earlier. IMHO, an easier to understand set of data is available to us now, via the GPS, which, using very sensitive timing devices not available a century ago, routinely performs direct light travel time measurments. GPS satellites have ground-relative speeds on the order of 4000 m/s, and light travel times on the order of 0.09 sec. If, as predicted by emission theory, the speed of a photon was c + v, where v is the speed of its emitter, we would expect GPS positions involving certain ground positions, satellites, and times to be inaccurate by a few hundred meters, unless adjusted for by the system. However, according to every source I’ve read (I’ve not actually directly examined GPS satellite or receiver software) the system makes no such adjustment, and typical GPS equipment is accurate to within about 15 m.

 

Given the large amount of high-precision experimental data supporting the constant speed of light predicted by classical electromagnetism and postulated by special relativity, and contradicting emission theory, I don’t think a convincing argument can be made for the emission theory of light. :)

[martillo]

ronthepon and jay-qu:

 

Try applying the thing in polar, with 'r'. What do you get? Take a moment to derive the result yourself.

I don't need to make this. A linear differential equation of second order can have only two solutions. If you try other sistems of coordinates you will get the same solutions expressed in the new systems of coordinates. The natural system for a plane is the carthesian system (x,y,z), in a polar system the results appear much more complicated.

[martillo]

CraigD:

First of all I don't suggest an error in Maxwell's equations, I propose that the conclusion of the existency of the electromagnetic waves which start from Maxwell's equations is wrong. This is very different.

Second, you are deviating the scope of this thread, which is to discuss the existency of the electromagnetic waves, to a discussion if light velocity is constant or not. This is not my intention and may be you woud like to open a new thread for this.

You haven't presented any rationat refutation to my demonstration that "electromagnetic waves" do not exist.

[CraigD]

First of all I don't suggest an error in Maxwell's equations, I propose that the conclusion of the existency of the electromagnetic waves which start from Maxwell's equations is wrong. This is very different.

…

You haven't presented any rationat refutation to my demonstration that "electromagnetic waves" do not exist.

My apologies, but I have never personally derived the electromagnetic wave equation from either the modern 4 or historical 8 Maxwell’s equations. Rather, I’ve simply accepted the assertion found in many textbooks and encyclopedias, such as the wikipedia article “Maxwell’s equations”’s:

Maxwell used the equations to show that

light

is an

electromagnetic wave

.

I’ll make an effort to, but expect this will take me at least several days. Until then, martillo, I won’t be able to address your specific claim.

Second, you are deviating the scope of this thread, which is to discuss the existency of the electromagnetic waves, to a discussion if light velocity is constant or not. This is not my intention and may be you woud like to open a new thread for this.

Again, my apologies. I was attempting to proceed directly to the alternative offered in 8.1 THE EMISSION THEORY, of your “A New Light in Physics”, which I found more conventional and easier to discuss, rather than 7.1 ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVES DO NOT EXIST, which I found unconventional and confusing.

 

However, I believe the claim “electromagnetic waves do not exist” can be restated “light is not an electromagnetic wave”. If this is further restated to “light is not wavelike”, a wealth of relevant, easy to understand experimental data is available for discussion, leading ultimately to modern demonstrations of wave-particle duality, which I think are very relevant to the your claims.

 

:rolleyes: Martillo, is your goal to write a theory based on an alternative to Maxwell’s equations that makes exactly the same predictions as classical electromagnetism? Or are you seeking to make different experimental predictions? If so, what? If you intend neither of these goals, what do you intend?

[ronthepon]

ronthepon and jay-qu:

 

 

I don't need to make this. A linear differential equation of second order can have only two solutions. If you try other sistems of coordinates you will get the same solutions expressed in the new systems of coordinates. The natural system for a plane is the carthesian system (x,y,z), in a polar system the results appear much more complicated.

:confused:

 

 

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't write it explicitly.

 

Since you're not striking out the other dimensions, as in writing:

[math]\frac {\partial^2}{\partial x^2} + \frac {\partial^2}{\partial y^2} + \frac {\partial^2}{\partial z^2} = \frac {\partial^2}{\partial x^2}[/math] You won't get a plane wave. Having not neglected the x and y dimensions, you won't get the same result. Doing it in radial will actually make the 3-D analysis more simple.

 

Is this rational enough yet?

[modest]

CraigD:

First of all I don't suggest an error in Maxwell's equations, I propose that the conclusion of the existency of the electromagnetic waves which start from Maxwell's equations is wrong. This is very different.

 

So you're saying maxwell's equations work. It would be impossible to make the claim that they don't describe what is observed in the classical limit - so what is your point?

 

I assume you'd rather describe everything with photon particles. But, what would be the point of that? It is possible for the ocean to both be made of water particles and have waves. The waves are real - they exist - it is very useful to consider them.

 

-modest

[martillo]

CraigD:

Those suggestions for a different title in the thread seem fine but this thread considers not only light but any kind of radiation in the "electromagnetic spectrum" including radio-waves (AM, FM, TV, etc) X-rays, Y-rays and even heat-radiation.

 

Martillo, is your goal to write a theory based on an alternative to Maxwell’s equations that makes exactly the same predictions as classical electromagnetism? Or are you seeking to make different experimental predictions? If so, what? If you intend neither of these goals, what do you intend?

No, not at all, I'm not against Maxwell's equations. I sustain the particles' approach that any kind of "electromagnetic radiation" is a photons' radiation and hs nothing to do with waves.

Maxwell's equations are fine, just the deduction of the existence of "electromagnetic waves" is what I consider wrong, for me they cannot exist and this is what I present in my page.

 

Wht I intend? I think it is to recover the old particles' approach for light and any kind of "electromagnetic radiation" presenting a totally new model for the elementary particles which describe very well all known Physics' experiments, the particles' model ones and the "wave-like" behaviors ones, determining that the "wave-particle duality" proposition is not a right "theory", that in reality there are no such waves but only particles.

 

I don't have new predictions for the new "model", I didn't have time for this and I still don't have time for it now but I don't discard that in the future new predictions could come as the theory would be developed further (may be with the help of otherones).

[martillo]

Ronthepon:

 

You won't get a plane wave. Having not neglected the x and y dimensions, you won't get the same result. Doing it in radial will actually make the 3-D analysis more simple.

 

Is this rational enough yet?

Sorry but the solutions to an equation does not anyway depend on the system of coordinates choosen to solve it. The solution will be the same just expressed in another system of coordinates.

[martillo]

Modest:

So you're saying maxwell's equations work. It would be impossible to make the claim that they don't describe what is observed in the classical limit - so what is your point?

I don't understand why Maxwell's equation are so associated with electromagnetic waves as if they were the same thing.

Maxwell's equations are the set of equations any electric and magnetic field must satisfy. "Electromagnetic waves" existency is just a (wrong) prediction of a possible thing the electric and magnetic fields could produce because in principle the equations allow the existency of such plane waves. What I sustain is that that prediction is wrong because it is impossible to generate such things, I mean there is no possible source for those things, not practical and not theoretical ones.

 

I assume you'd rather describe everything with photon particles. But, what would be the point of that? It is possible for the ocean to both be made of water particles and have waves. The waves are real - they exist - it is very useful to consider them.

The point is taht is not true, is not real, is not right and I think nobody wants to believe in wrong things mainly because it could leave sooner or later to wrong conclusions.

Isn't this enough for you?

[InfiniteNow]

The point is taht is not true, is not real, is not right and I think nobody wants to believe in wrong things mainly because it could leave sooner or later to wrong conclusions.

Isn't this enough for you?

 

No. They've held up extremely well so far, so your handwaving, frankly, is NOT enough. You either need to show something which explains the same things and also works better or shut up.