Why Does It Happen?

[nutronjon]

This thread is of another way of looking at, "reason, is the controlling force of the universe". This includes concepts of God and morals that I believe are essential to understanding the ideology of democracy. I add this, because of the emotional reaction to the words, "God" and "moral", that distorts our thinking when they are mentioned.

 

I think we agree, in general people believed things happened because the gods and goddesses made them happen. A lot of effort went into figuring out how to please the gods and goddesses and get desired results. Those who had claim to such information, had high prestege, and often could get a lot of money playing the information they had about such matters. Especially where religion was an established organization, and the priest made a good living, they wanted to protect their ideas and position. Then a long came some Greeks who claimed it wasn't the god and goddesses that made things happen, but everything happened for a reason, and they proceeded to look into the reason things happened as they did, with a scientific point of view.

 

Now we our proud of our sciences, and an unnamed person, argued things happen because they can. Is this a scientific answer? Things fall to the ground because they can? Can they fall up if they want to? I know as a child I did my best to fly, but for some reason, I kept falling to the ground, instead of sailing into the sky. I think there is a reason things full to the ground. I think, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, and that we can call this organizing ? God, and the better we understand of the reasons of cause and effect, they better our moral judgement is.

 

The really big question is how much choice is there? Are we really making choices, or do all things react to the moment in predictable ways?

[Moontanman]

 

Now we our proud of our sciences, and an unnamed person, argued things happen because they can. Is this a scientific answer? Things fall to the ground because they can? Can they fall up if they want to? I know as a child I did my best to fly, but for some reason, I kept falling to the ground, instead of sailing into the sky. I think there is a reason things full to the ground. I think, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, and that we can call this organizing ? God, and the better we understand of the reasons of cause and effect, they better our moral judgement is.

 

The really big question is how much choice is there? Are we really making choices, or do all things react to the moment in predictable ways?

 

I am that unnamed person and no things cannot fall up simply because they cannot do so, "things" do not choose to do anything, only beings with free will can choose. You left out an important part of what I said, things happen because they can, things do not happen because they cannot. There are things in between that might happen due to chance but even chance cannot make something that is impossible happen. What I was trying to say is that we can only choose what is possible, we cannot make the impossible happen no matter how hard we want it to or reason it to. Thats why you could not fly, its physically impossible for you to fly by flapping your arms, reason didn't have anything to do with it. There is only a limited way things can happen. the laws of the universe determine what can and cannot happen, not god, not reason, nothing can happen that is not allowed by he laws of the universe.

[nutronjon]

I am that unnamed person and no things cannot fall up simply because they cannot do so, "things" do not choose to do anything, only beings with free will can choose. You left out an important part of what I said, things happen because they can, things do not happen because they cannot. There are things in between that might happen due to chance but even chance cannot make something that is impossible happen. What I was trying to say is that we can only choose what is possible, we cannot make the impossible happen no matter how hard we want it to or reason it to. Thats why you could not fly, its physically impossible for you to fly by flapping your arms, reason didn't have anything to do with it. There is only a limited way things can happen. the laws of the universe determine what can and cannot happen, not god, not reason, nothing can happen that is not allowed by he laws of the universe.

 

:) And, what determines what things can not do, a scientifically determined reason or the gods?

 

Even chance can not make something impossible happen

Let us look at this and see if we can figure out, if chance does not make something impossible happen, how does the impossible happen? The first example of the impossible I can think of, is things flying ;). There are these things swimming in the sea, and then climbing on earth and not dying :eek:, and even more amazing, some of these things start flying:eek2:. Wow, what is happening here? Is there a reason for these impossible things things to happen? What can it be, if it isn't the gods making these things happen?

[nutronjon]

nothing can happen that is not allowed by he laws of the universe.

 

I want to argue this point. ;) Humans are like the gods, because they can make the impossible possible. They submerge themselves in the sea and go exploring. They fly high in the sky and even landed on the moon for goodness sake. :eek: They move across the earth extremely fast, traveling in hours the distances that once took many days. They have hot and cold water coming out their walls, and stars that light up their rooms, turning night into day, and little people in boxes. They have made so many impossible things happens, they think they don't need the gods. :) Is there a reason, they have been able to do this? Do they fly because they think of flying, or is it because they understand the laws of gravity and the laws of flight, that are the reason (cause) made manifest by the universe?

 

I want to take your argument in a far more important direction. According to the bible, only Hebrews can not be slaves, because of their special relationship with God, but they can own slaves. That means, if I am a Hebrew, I can own slaves and nothing bad will happen, because God is okay with me owning slaves, right? Not, if you favor the arguments of Socrates and Cicero. If we important Black slaves from Africa, bad things are going to happen, if we are Hebrew of not, because the effect of doing this is bad. When we understand the reasoning of cause and effect, we have better moral judgement. And if you do things against the laws of cause and effect, bad things will happen. It may take three generations before the bad effect is noticably a problem to us, but sooner or later, the **** is going to hit the fan.

 

For many decades the US prepared their young for citizenship, but preparing them to make good moral judgements. Thanks to education for technology, and leaving moral education to the church, we now think Christians have the sole right to define God and morals. Oh a few argue, we all have a vioce in determining moral, or that morality comes in our genes as we evolve from social animals, but our ability to discuss such things is a chaotic mess, because we have lost the understanding that, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, and bad **** will happen when our reasoning is wrong. Capitalism and exploitation of finite resources such as water, farm land and oil, has thrown the whole world into a mess, while human beings are expecting their leaders to do the impossible. Good job folks, hang in there with your argument that, reason, is not the controlling force of the universe, and continue your expectations for the impossible to be done, and blame people when the impossible is not done fast enough. You are as the gods, and can do anything you please, right? What limits us if not that, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, not human beings or gods. What is in your brain is valuable only when it is compatable with universal laws.

[Moontanman]

I want to argue this point. :wink: Humans are like the gods, because they can make the impossible possible. They submerge themselves in the sea and go exploring. They fly high in the sky and even landed on the moon for goodness sake. :eek2: They move across the earth extremely fast, traveling in hours the distances that once took many days. They have hot and cold water coming out their walls, and stars that light up their rooms, turning night into day, and little people in boxes. They have made so many impossible things happens, they think they don't need the gods. :evil: Is there a reason, they have been able to do this? Do they fly because they think of flying, or is it because they understand the laws of gravity and the laws of flight, that are the reason (cause) made manifest by the universe?

 

I want to take your argument in a far more important direction. According to the bible, only Hebrews can not be slaves, because of their special relationship with God, but they can own slaves. That means, if I am a Hebrew, I can own slaves and nothing bad will happen, because God is okay with me owning slaves, right? Not, if you favor the arguments of Socrates and Cicero. If we important Black slaves from Africa, bad things are going to happen, if we are Hebrew of not, because the effect of doing this is bad. When we understand the reasoning of cause and effect, we have better moral judgement. And if you do things against the laws of cause and effect, bad things will happen. It may take three generations before the bad effect is noticably a problem to us, but sooner or later, the **** is going to hit the fan.

 

For many decades the US prepared their young for citizenship, but preparing them to make good moral judgements. Thanks to education for technology, and leaving moral education to the church, we now think Christians have the sole right to define God and morals. Oh a few argue, we all have a vioce in determining moral, or that morality comes in our genes as we evolve from social animals, but our ability to discuss such things is a chaotic mess, because we have lost the understanding that, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, and bad **** will happen when our reasoning is wrong. Capitalism and exploitation of finite resources such as water, farm land and oil, has thrown the whole world into a mess, while human beings are expecting their leaders to do the impossible. Good job folks, hang in there with your argument that, reason, is not the controlling force of the universe, and continue your expectations for the impossible to be done, and blame people when the impossible is not done fast enough. You are as the gods, and can do anything you please, right? What limits us if not that, reason, is the controlling force of the universe, not human beings or gods. What is in your brain is valuable only when it is compatable with universal laws.

 

Humans have not and will never cause or make the impossible happen, none of the things you mention are really impossible. Technology allows us to do the difficult but not the impossible. flying is not impossible if you have wings, walking on land is not impossible if you have legs and lungs to breath air. Evolution has brought these things about gradually through natural selection. You do not see giant iron constructs with steam engines evolving in the natural world because its' impossible. we might make such a thing but for it to evolve from life with out technology will not happen in our universe. Why would you try to ridicule my post Carol? You know that flying, swimming , walking or any of the things that have naturally evolved are not impossible. Impossible would be for you to fly by flapping your arms. None of the things humans have done with technology are impossible, just difficult. Do not confuse difficult with impossible. Natural laws are the controlling force of the universe, not a concept like reason or a fantasy like gods. Nothing that violates natural laws will ever happen no matter what the "reason"

[Grains]

None of the things humans have done with technology are impossible, just difficult. Do not confuse difficult with impossible. Natural laws are the controlling force of the universe, not a concept like reason or a fantasy like gods. Nothing that violates natural laws will ever happen no matter what the "reason"

 

Nicely said....

[nutronjon]

Humans have not and will never cause or make the impossible happen, none of the things you mention are really impossible. Technology allows us to do the difficult but not the impossible. flying is not impossible if you have wings, walking on land is not impossible if you have legs and lungs to breath air. Evolution has brought these things about gradually through natural selection. You do not see giant iron constructs with steam engines evolving in the natural world because its' impossible. we might make such a thing but for it to evolve from life with out technology will not happen in our universe. Why would you try to ridicule my post Carol? You know that flying, swimming , walking or any of the things that have naturally evolved are not impossible. Impossible would be for you to fly by flapping your arms. None of the things humans have done with technology are impossible, just difficult. Do not confuse difficult with impossible. Natural laws are the controlling force of the universe, not a concept like reason or a fantasy like gods. Nothing that violates natural laws will ever happen no matter what the "reason"

 

Forget it. Everything I try to do here seems to go sour. There is not an once of fun, here.

[InfiniteNow]

Does that mean that you are unwilling or does it mean that you are unable to address the criticisms of your ideas?

[modest]

Forget it. Everything I try to do here seems to go sour. There is not an once of fun, here.

 

Consider the crowd you're playing to. There is an argument you could make which would go something like this:

The believers of an autocratic, Abrahamic God would do better thinking of God as nature or reason. Like the ancient Greeks, this would allow them to find accord with science. It would advance society.

That would be a fine argument to make but you must consider who you're making that argument towards. We are not many theists here. The idea of 'nature as God' may be an improvement for someone who is extremely dogmatic in some tradition-religion, but not for the agnostic. Not for the scientist.

 

You've often said you wish people could first accept that there is a God then further debate this issue with you. Once again, wrong crowd. There are forums full of people to whom I believe your argument could be and would be nicely made. Have you considered that?

[sanctus]

Forget it. Everything I try to do here seems to go sour. There is not an once of fun, here.

????

I read through this thread and thought it was a very interesting discussion and then you come up with this? It was just a real discussion arguments against arguments, if you think that is no fun then you are at wrong place...

 

Don't take it as an attack, with the above I just want to show you my surprise of your post

[nutronjon]

Does that mean that you are unwilling or does it mean that you are unable to address the criticisms of your ideas?

 

It means I thought moontanman knew me better. I wasn't ridiculing him, but expressing dilight and wonder. Each step of evolution, was the beginning of the impossible becoming possible. Recently we have made some really awesome discoveries about how the impossible became possible.

 

If I understand things correctly, it all began with electrons and protrons, and somehow these atomic particles continued to increase, than we get hydrogen, and the numbers of elements continue to increase, we get planets and at least one with plant and animal life. All that life began as simple celled plants and animals and became more complex. Finally there is man, who takes over the creative force, and with technology, makes the preivously impossble possible. That is pretty awesome in my book. And I don't think the best answer is that this happens because it can. It happens in steps and following laws of organization.

 

And no InfiniteNow, I can not explain why this evolution happened. It was something I wanted to explore with people who know a whole lot more than I do. But I thinking I do not belong here. I come from a completely different space. I still have the wonder and delight of a child, and this is resulting in many problems. This time it resulted in someone I have counted on, to think I was ridiculing him, and I can't leap over that gulf in understanding. I fell in the void of dispair.

[nutronjon]

Consider the crowd you're playing to. There is an argument you could make which would go something like this:

The believers of an autocratic, Abrahamic God would do better thinking of God as nature or reason. Like the ancient Greeks, this would allow them to find accord with science. It would advance society.

That would be a fine argument to make but you must consider who you're making that argument towards. We are not many theists here. The idea of 'nature as God' may be an improvement for someone who is extremely dogmatic in some tradition-religion, but not for the agnostic. Not for the scientist.

 

You've often said you wish people could first accept that there is a God then further debate this issue with you. Once again, wrong crowd. There are forums full of people to whom I believe your argument could be and would be nicely made. Have you considered that?

 

 

Oh yes, but they are lacking in science and therefore can not build that bridge. Here are well informed intelligent people who can build that bridge and possibly bring the world to peace- but there is an attitude thing, as bad as the church rejecting science, that prevents the bridge being built.

 

The first step to building that bridge, is stop the fight against the possibility of a God. Why fight the idea? If I were pushing the bible as literal truth, I centainly could see points to argue against. A God does everything on a whim, is not such a good idea. However, the Stoic idea that God has substance, and quantum physics is about the substance, and that by studying nature we can learn of this God, intrigues me. The concept of it all beginning with monad, spliting into a dyad, and with the triad all things become possible- speaks of mathematic/geometric reality to me.

 

Now why agnostics can not work with this, but say things do not happen for a reason, but "because they can" is beyond me. That the reason is, this leads to that, and it can not happen until this happens- is totally unthinkable. This is a theology forum, and that doesn't mean using science to understand God. It means turning everything said in theology, into an argument that God doesn't exist. Okay- I give up. Nothing happens for a reason. Everything happens because it can, and there is no organizing force, only chaos.

[Thunderbird]

You’re just having a bout with existential angst. It will only get worse looking for confirmation on your intuitional insights on this forum. I say trust your intuition that there is an order to things. As you can see it in beauty, symmetry and form. This is the artistic eye.

Here’s a new book for us.

The Science of Leonardo: Inside the Mind of the Great Genius of the RenaissanceFrom Publishers Weekly

Capra, author of the classic The Tao of Physics, makes the case in this fascinating intellectual biography for the great artist Leonardo being the unsung father of modern science. Drawing on approximately 6,000 pages and 100,000 drawings surviving from Leonardo's scattered notebooks, Capra explores the groundbreaking research of this quintessential Renaissance man. Illegitimate, born in a Tuscan village in 1452, Leonardo did not receive a classical education, a fact that, Capra notes, later freed him from the intellectual conventions of his time and allowed him to develop his own holistic, empirical approach to science. Apprenticed with Verrocchio in Florence around the age of 15, Leonardo became an independent artist when he was 25, but his intellectual appetites demanded more. He taught himself Latin and began the famous notebooks, a record of his artistic and scientific explorations. The recurring patterns he saw in nature led him to create what Capra calls a science of wholeness, of movement and transformation. Capra expresses his own intellectual kinship with Leonardo's multidisciplinary perspective on science, one that recognizes the fundamental interdependence of all natural phenomena—a view he sees as particularly relevant today

 

The idea of God can only be an idea, since one cannot fully comprehend that in which is vastly more complex than oneself. These ideas can be good or bad depending on your spiritual maturity. This forum is not about that, it doesn't deal with it, not directly anyway.

[Thunderbird]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

Forget it. Everything I try to do here seems to go sour. There is not an once of fun, here.

 

Knowing Fish

One day Chuang Tzu and a friend were walking by a river.

"Look at the fish swimming about," said Chuang Tzu, "They are really enjoying themselves."

"You are not a fish," replied the friend, "So you can't truly know that they are enjoying themselves."

"You are not me," said Chuang Tzu. "So how do you know that I do not know that the fish are enjoying themselves?"

[REASON]

Tell us, nutron. Why is understanding the true nature of God important to you?