Clock Dilation: Its cause?

[James Putnam]

Beginning with a stationary observer on the surface of the earth, the rate at which clocks operate changes with altitude and with speed relative to the observer. The question is: What is the cause for this clock dilation? The clock's operation is a physical occurrence. Does empirical evidence indicate the reason for clock dilation?

 

James

[sanctus]

There is plenty of evidence of time dilatation. For example in accelerators you can "see" particles which have a half-life of a few microseconds in their proper time, but when they are moving quick enough it seems to us that they live much much longer.

 

The cause is I would say the fact that in special relativity there is the axiom that there is a maximum velocity © and that all massive particles can never move at that velocity.

Like any other theory special relativity is based on axioms. In case of special relativity the first is the one above and the second that there is no preferred system of reference.

[James Putnam]

There is plenty of evidence of time dilatation. For example in accelerators you can "see" particles which have a half-life of a few microseconds in their proper time, but when they are moving quick enough it seems to us that they live much much longer.

 

The cause is I would say the fact that in special relativity there is the axiom that there is a maximum velocity © and that all massive particles can never move at that velocity.

Like any other theory special relativity is based on axioms. In case of special relativity the first is the one above and the second that there is no preferred system of reference.

 

Hi Sanctus,

 

The particle half-life is an example that is analogous to the clock problem. The point of this question is to hear from others how time becomes a part of physical action in the universe. Time is not something for which mechanical type tests can be performed. It is not available to be contained, handled, or tested. It seems to me that the adoption of the idea that time is the property that is being altered is an unsubstantiated assumption. There is a theory, but it is not based upon empirical evidence resulting from tests that were performed on 'time'. Anyway, thank you for responding in a cordial manner.

 

James

[freeztar]

The point of this question is to hear from others how time becomes a part of physical action in the universe.

 

Indeed, this is an age old question in philosophy.

 

Time is not something for which mechanical type tests can be performed. It is not available to be contained, handled, or tested. It seems to me that the adoption of the idea that time is the property that is being altered is an unsubstantiated assumption.

 

Just to clarify, time dilation does not imply that "time is the property being altered", but rather the *measurements* of time are being altered. Hence clocks are used.

 

Science does not have a definition of time in the way that you are assuming. Science utilizes the second to measure time. The "essence of time" is a question for philosophy to answer.

[James Putnam]

Indeed, this is an age old question in philosophy.

 

 

 

Just to clarify, time dilation does not imply that "time is the property being altered", but rather the *measurements* of time are being altered. Hence clocks are used.

 

Science does not have a definition of time in the way that you are assuming. Science utilizes the second to measure time. The "essence of time" is a question for philosophy to answer.

 

Yes it is only our measurement of time. Our measurement of time is not time. Let me pose the question from a different perspective. There is a clock that keeps a very accurate measurement of time for us based upon some cyclic action. For simplicity, each cycle is named 'one second of measured time'. The point is that the name second is only a name. As you have implied, so far as we can tell we are not affecting the property of time. We are simply working with physical action and its rate of operation. Each cycle of the clock could have been named one 'cycle'. If we compared another frequency of operation to that of the clock, then we would have units of cycle(a)/cycle(:).

 

James

[freeztar]

Yes, the second is just an arbitrary measure of time that is useful. As it is formally defined, it is merely relative to every other cycle. It's simply a very useful way to measure events and compare them.

[REASON]

Yes, the second is just an arbitrary measure of time that is useful. As it is formally defined, it is merely relative to every other cycle. It's simply a very useful way to measure events and compare them.

 

Which is exactly what is being done to confirm the effect of time dilation.

[CHADS]

The Clock Dialation is purley Dimensional .. it is Movement that's impeded.

 

We can only really Deduce the upper limits of dialation through data collected in experiment.

 

Empirically Light travels at the greatest velocity from the sun to earth and holds the slowest clock dialation ... The sun would have its own gravity clock dialation zone and earth would Have its own 3d gravity dialation Zone ... Purely Dimensional . Becuase the light travels out of the suns 3d Dialation Zone to Earths 3d dialation zone , We percieve an interval ..

 

If we occupied the same dimension of C then we would see the Traversing light instantaneously on earth. It would be quicker so all things want to travel this way but cant!

 

Empirical observations from black holes bring forth the notion that light cannot escape the blackhole horizon ... and from this brings a theoretical point where the highest gravity potential dialation is the same for the velocity dialation.

 

The Atomic clock on the air craft ran slightly slower than the one on earth ... is probably the famous observation ...

 

If there is no time then there is no change or movement ,so im led to believe,

just the potential to do so.

[James Putnam]

Which is exactly what is being done to confirm the effect of time dilation.

 

And, of course, since I see the use of the name 'time' (What do you mean by it?) as being very possibly misleading, I would say the effect of clock dilation.

 

James

[freeztar]

And, of course, since I see the use of the name 'time' (What do you mean by it?) as being very possibly misleading, I would say the effect of clock dilation.

 

It's quite obvious now that it is the abstraction of time which troubles you, James. Am I correct?

 

In any case, I highly recommend this thread to all who are unfamiliar with it.

http://hypography.com/forums/physics-mathematics/9504-time-explained-v2-1-a.html

[InfiniteNow]

And, of course, since I see the use of the name 'time' (What do you mean by it?) as being very possibly misleading, I would say the effect of clock dilation.

 

James

 

James,

 

Contrary to what you might think, time has a definition when used in physics, which is precisely the context under which this discussion is taking place. You seem wrapped up in the metaphysical definition of time, and frankly, that's not at all relevant to the concept of time dilation (clock dilation would mean you are making the clock bigger, and is pretty much rubbish).

 

Also, there is no need to "dumb down" physics simply because people who are too lazy to study or too stupid to understand haven't yet figured out how words are properly used in this context. Clock dilation? Really? Come on...

 

 

Read this. It's a good place to start, regardless if your interest lies in metaphysics or actual physics:

 

Being and Becoming in Modern Physics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

 

:)

[REASON]

And, of course, since I see the use of the name 'time' (What do you mean by it?) as being very possibly misleading, I would say the effect of clock dilation.

 

James

 

By *time* I mean exactly how it is defined:

 

Time, sequential arrangement of all events, or the interval between two events in such a sequence. The concept of time may be discussed on several different levels: physical, psychological, philosophical and scientific, and biological.

 

The name of the interval is insignificant. What's important in the study of time dilation is the relationship of the intervals when comparing objects moving at different speeds to one another and altitudes from a gravitational source. Once a unit of measurement is agreed upon, whether it be minutes, seconds, or nanoseconds, that unit is applied to each condition being observed, and if the results demonstrate a predictable variance, than it can be theorized that time dilation is an actual occurance based on evidence. INow provided examples of experiments that have been conducted that arrive at just that conclusion.

 

So then one's perception of how misleading time dilation is becomes directly proportional to how resistant they are to the empirical evidence supporting it.

 

When it comes to time dilation, what's in a name?

[James Putnam]

It's quite obvious now that it is the abstraction of time which troubles you, James. Am I correct?

 

In any case, I highly recommend this thread to all who are unfamiliar with it.

http://hypography.com/forums/physics-mathematics/9504-time-explained-v2-1-a.html

 

I am not troubled by time. I am troubled by efforts to make time subservient to theory. I read the link. My own conclusion is that motion takes place in time, but is separate from time. We can't experiment with time in order to prove anything physical about it. However, there is a way to come close to it. That way would be to determine a fundamental constant that is a measure of time that is not affected by motion or gravity or anything that we can devise. It would be a universal clock keeping precise time free of material influence.

 

James

[InfiniteNow]

So, basically, you completely disregard relativity in favor of the idea of newtonian absolute time which has repeatedly been demonstrated to be false?

 

Okay. Interesting approach, but whatever floats your boat.

 

...which, as we all know, is buoyancy.

[snoopy]

I am not troubled by time. I am troubled by efforts to make time subservient to theory.

 

James

 

Time and space has to be included in any physics framework or you would not be able to make predictions about future events from past and present data events and therefore your physics would be ultimately useless as it would make no predictions.

 

Physics is a mathematical model of the universe, to model it properly you are forced by convention to adopt a spacetime approach.

 

Do you have another way of accurately modelling the universe without time ie can you progress the model forwards in time and make predictions ?

 

Peace

:shade:

[coldcreation]

...What's important in the study of time dilation is the relationship of the intervals when comparing objects moving at different speeds to one another and altitudes from a gravitational source...

 

True, but motion need not be. [Edit] I think the "and" in your sentence makes the distinction. But just to be clear: Time dilation occurs too depending solely on elevation (or altitude) in a gravitational field, even when a body (or clock) is at rest compared to another at a different altitude. That is the signature of curved spacetime. It is a test of general relativity (which of couse has been tested and passed with flying colors).

 

See: Pound-Rebka experiment

 

Also: Gravitational time dilation

 

 

CC

[REASON]

True, but motion need not be. [Edit] I think the "and" in your sentence makes the distinction. But just to be clear: Time dilation occurs too depending solely on elevation (or altitude) in a gravitational field, even when a body (or clock) is at rest compared to another at a different altitude. That is the signature of curved spacetime. It is a test of general relativity (which of couse has been tested and passed with flying colors).

CC

 

Thanks for the clarification, CC. :shade:

 

The way I worded my statement could suggest that relative motion and altitude are both required for time dilation to occur and that would be untrue. I meant to distinguish them as two separate scenarios. Maybe the conjunction *or* would have been preferable.