Teleporting rocket fuel as a Bose-Einstein condensate

[Jay-qu]

So to be able to make a BEC you need the atom in question to be a boson, since all the sub atomic particles in an atom have half integer spin they all need to line up in the right way to produce an integer spin particle. Most elements have at least one isotope in which this occurs.

 

If you want your fuel to be a molecule this can also be done, but it is much harder and the BEC's are much less stable as molecules have much more states close to the ground state, this makes it hard to keep all the molecules in the ground state.

 

So far the only way BEC's have being created is via laser cooling and to laser cool an atom it needs to have some distinct properties in its energy level configuration. It needs to have strong distinct absorption and emission lines around a wavelength of laser in which we can make.

 

All this said and done I dont see how that you can 'teleport' a BEC. Yes the quantum effects become macroscopic, but that does not make the BEC like an EM wave that can be easily transmitted and recieved..

[CraigD]

All this said and done I dont see how that you can 'teleport' a BEC. Yes the quantum effects become macroscopic, but that does not make the BEC like an EM wave that can be easily transmitted and recieved..

Although I’m skeptical that it can, even in principle, be done, I’ll make an attempt to suggest how tinkering with de Broglie wavelengths, as occurs when making Bose-Einstein condensates, could be used in the way described in the original post.

 

For low velocities [math]v[/math], the dBw [math]\lambda = \frac{h}{p} = \frac{h}{m v}[/math], where [math]h[/math] is Planck’s constant, and [math]m[/math] is the mass of the fundamental or composite particle. Thus, if we can make [math]v[/math] very small, such as by laser cooling a particle, we can make [math]\lambda[/math] very large.

 

The wave function associated with [math]\lambda[/math] gives the probability of the particle being located within a particular volume of space. So, if [math]\lambda[/math] is very large, the probability of the particle being in an small volume of space is very small.

 

Wrestle around with the equations, and some much more daunting, somewhat epistemological problems involving quantum coherence, and we can assure that the probability of the particle being in a volume such as, say, Earth or the solar system, is nearly zero. In short, we can pull off a quantum vanishing trick.

 

A quick plugging of numbers for a single rubidium atom cooled to Cornell, Wieman Ketterle’s prize-winning temperature of 1.7e-7 K into the equation for temperature of a gas and de Broglie’s equation gives [math]\lambda[/math] = 6.599e-5 m. So, to teleport our atom off Earth (about 1e8 m), it must be much cooler, about 1.3e-18 K. To teleport it more than a light-year, the temperature must be on the order of 1e-33 K.

 

That’s some pretty mind-boggling coldness! :eek_big:

 

Where BECs come into this, I think, is that, being much more massive than their constituent subatomic particles, but still being a single particle quantum mechanically, they should be easier to nudge around to reach mind-bogglingly low temperatures. So while their greater mass results in a shorter [math]\lambda[/math], their lower speed could more than counter that, allowing wave effects on a mind-boggling scale.

 

Where things start getting difficult (cooling things 30 orders of magnitude more than Nobel-prize winning efforts have achieved is the easy part! ;)) is when you stop focusing on assuring the to-be-teleported stuff is no longer on or near Earth, and start trying to assure it's in the catch-tank/receiver of the target spaceship. With much hand waving, this basically requires that you set up some sort of interference pattern with multiple particles, barrier-lenses, etc. so that there’s a region of constructive interference exactly where the target receiver is. I’ve not even started to consider how this could be done, but suspect it may be impossible.

[Pyrotex]

Excellent, excellent. We're half-way there, even though we think it impossible!!! :cup:

[TheBigDog]

Maybe I will only get a good explanation about why not... but what role could Entanglement play in this enterprise? I have read that entangled particles are the only confirmed instance of FTL transfer of information. When an entangled pair is shot in any two directions, the reading of spin on one always determines the spin on the other. If one is shot through a gizmo that would guarantee its spin, then you would be (in that same instant) spinning the other in the opposite direction. This may all be a bit simplified, but that is essentially how I remember it.

 

Taking Pyro's idea of quantum effects on a macroscopic thing, what if the transmitter and the receiver were in fact entangled at a quantum level? No matter how far apart they got, they would be the physics equivalent of the Corsican Brothers; one feeling the other's pain. At one device you feed information in, and simultaneously the same information is emitted at the other device. Could macroscopic entangled gizmos allow the conduction/transfer of more than just information? Could you send electrons through such a device? Could you send photons through such a device? Could you send atoms through such a device?

 

I always assumed that this is how interstellar communications would be made reasonable. Why not take it the next step?

 

Bill

[Karnuvap]

I have read that entangled particles are the only confirmed instance of FTL transfer of information.

Bill

 

Would that it were so but, sadly, entanglement cannot be used to transmit actual information. What you get at the other end is only a different random pattern from what you were getting before you started to analyse your spins at this end. But it's still random.

 

Also - what you actually do when you 'teleport' a particle from lab A to lab B (or Ground station to Space ship) is not move the particle but you transfer all the attributes of the particle in lab A to a particle that you have sitting in lab B so that you have 'effectively' teleported the particle to lab B (because it is now identical in all respects to the particle that you had in Lab A). But, to coin a phrase, no matter changes hands during the process.

This could be wrong and what you were trying to do with your BEC is different to teleportation - if so then I apologise and wish you luck with your matter transference machinery.

 

Concerning the issue of the momentum that the matter you are transferring might need/take with it - - You should also consider the gravitational potential energy (GPE) that it starts out with and then has when it lands in your space ship. On the base (Earth?) I will presume that it has GPE whereas on your ship this will be liberated because it won't have much GPE - maybe you could use this excess to power your engines?

[JoeRoccoCassara]

If it were possible to teleport a craft's fuel, than it would be possible to travel at light speed.

 

Once teleported, the craft's fuel will undergo a series of stages, the fuel starts out as raw hydrogen, a remote laser beam fuses and heats this hydrogen into plasma, this laser beam is very powerful, and fired from a solar powered space station, that is also a very large Bose Einstein Condensate Transmitter, to teleport the fuel to the depths of our galaxy, it needs to be BIG.

 

In a few minutes, the plasma generated from the heating hydrogen will be so hot that it will burn newly arrived hydrogen (from a BEC Receiver built into the craft) into plasma without the need of the high powered laser.

 

This will cause a chain reaction, the plasma will become so hot that it's atoms will release energy by themselves, and the hydrogen will become so hot that it will transmute into more plasma, which in turn will release more energy, making the whole craft self sustained.

 

The craft requires NO energy, the space station that fires the laser beam is what acts as an energy source, it converts the fuel into energy, and over time allows the fuel to convert itself into energy, and the fuel is teleported from the space station's BEC Transmitter.

 

The Craft can be as large as needed as well.

 

Once the Craft reaches light speed, it can coast to it's destination.

[Karnuvap]

 

Once the Craft reaches light speed, it can coast to it's destination.

 

Once the craft reaches lightspeed it will ALREADY BE at its destination.

 

But let's not let known reality impinge on this thread. I think I'd better stop posting on here because I am too constrained by what's actually possible to join in the fun speculation.

[JoeRoccoCassara]

Once the craft reaches lightspeed it will ALREADY BE at its destination.

 

That will depend on it's size, or how much fuel it can carry. The more fuel it burns into energy at once, the quicker quicker it's acceleration will perpetuate.

 

But let's not let known reality impinge on this thread.

 

You make it sound like reality's a sin, and that we don't need it.

 

I think I'd better stop posting on here

 

If I had a nickle for everytime I heard that, I bet you do respond, it's not a bad thing, just a little human curiosity.

 

because I am too constrained by what's actually possible to join in the fun speculation.

 

The fun speculation needs fuel, so, impinge reality so that I might improve my theories, and make them slightly more realistic!

[Moontanman]

If it were possible to teleport a craft's fuel, than it would be possible to travel at light speed.

 

Nope, no amount of fuel teleported or other wise is going to let you travel at light speed.

 

 

Once teleported, the craft's fuel will undergo a series of stages, the fuel starts out as raw hydrogen, a remote laser beam fuses and heats this hydrogen into plasma, this laser beam is very powerful, and fired from a solar powered space station, that is also a very large Bose Einstein Condensate Transmitter, to teleport the fuel to the depths of our galaxy, it needs to be BIG.

 

No remote laser beam can do that, no matter how powerful a laser spreads out as it travels and would loose it's ability to heat up the fuel very quickly.

 

In a few minutes, the plasma generated from the heating hydrogen will be so hot that it will burn newly arrived hydrogen (from a BEC Receiver built into the craft) into plasma without the need of the high powered laser.

 

Nope, unless you have a stable nuclear fusion reaction you cannot burn hydrogen with out an oxidizer no matter how hot you get the hydrogen at the beginning. If you have a stable nuclear fusion reactor you don't need the laser beam.

 

This will cause a chain reaction, the plasma will become so hot that it's atoms will release energy by themselves, and the hydrogen will become so hot that it will transmute into more plasma, which in turn will release more energy, making the whole craft self sustained.

 

Nope, none of this can happen, with an energy input from either an outside source or a source on board your space craft none of this can happen. Hydrogen doesn't release energy when it turns into plasma, it takes energy to make hydrogen into a plasma. No self sustaining reaction is possible with out fusion being involved. If you have a stable fusion reaction then you don't need the laser.

 

The craft requires NO energy, the space station that fires the laser beam is what acts as an energy source, it converts the fuel into energy, and over time allows the fuel to convert itself into energy, and the fuel is teleported from the space station's BEC Transmitter.

 

As I have pointed out before this is not possible.

 

 

The Craft can be as large as needed as well.

 

Once the Craft reaches light speed, it can coast to it's destination.

 

Your craft cannot reach light speed and all though it would coast at what ever speed it had if it was traveling close to the speed of light the atoms it runs into become cosmic rays and would irradiate the crew as well as corrode the ship into dust. Hitting a speck of dust at near the speed of light would be like a huge explosion. Any space craft traveling near the speed of light would require a huge shield of some sort to keep this from happening. also how would you slow down? It would require just as much energy to slow down as it took to get to near light speed.

[JoeRoccoCassara]

No remote laser beam can do that, no matter how powerful a laser spreads out as it travels and would loose it's ability to heat up the fuel very quickly.

 

Actually it's not remote at all, that was a typo, it's quite close.

 

Nope, unless you have a stable nuclear fusion reaction you cannot burn hydrogen with out an oxidizer no matter how hot you get the hydrogen at the beginning. If you have a stable nuclear fusion reactor you don't need the laser beam.

 

The laser beam fuses the atoms in a pool of hydrogen, transmuting the hydrogen itself. For example, the sun heats the ocean, same thing here, same principle, I mean.

 

It's the contact of degenerating plasma that heats the hydrogen into regular plasma.

 

By degenerating plasma I mean plasma that is so hot, that it goes through a similar process as plasma in the core of the sun would go through as it's atoms are fused to the point of combustion, releasing energy.

 

The Laser Beam is quite close, and the light particles are powerfully charged, with a little emphasis on powerfully.

 

Nope, none of this can happen, with an energy input from either an outside source or a source on board your space craft none of this can happen. Hydrogen doesn't release energy when it turns into plasma, it takes energy to make hydrogen into a plasma. No self sustaining reaction is possible with out fusion being involved. If you have a stable fusion reaction then you don't need the laser.

 

You have it ALL screwed up, the plasma is broken apart by heat, and it degenerates into energy, this burning plasma turns all the hydrogen that it makes contact with into regular non-burning plasma, which is degenerated into energy as it makes contact with the previous bursts of combusting plasma.

 

This process is repeated infinitely, until either WE run out of fuel, or the craft achieves C, it's a powerful form of self sustenance.

 

 

Your craft cannot reach light speed and all though it would coast at what ever speed it had if it was traveling close to the speed of light the atoms it runs into become cosmic rays and would irradiate the crew as well as corrode the ship into dust. Hitting a speck of dust at near the speed of light would be like a huge explosion. Any space craft traveling near the speed of light would require a huge shield of some sort to keep this from happening. also how would you slow down? It would require just as much energy to slow down as it took to get to near light speed.

 

Powerful mag-fields would have to be surrounding the craft, and I mean layers of mag fields.

 

These mag fields are shaped into globular cones as they approach a star, the star's coronal ejections will react to slow the craft down enough for a moderately fast orbit around the star, while in orbit the craft will slow down yet again.

 

There will not be a return journey.

 

Which is why the space station would have to keep supplying more of these large space crafts, until enough of them can build a space station at our destination.

[Moontanman]

Actually it's not remote at all, that was a typo, it's quite close.

 

 

 

The laser beam fuses the atoms in a pool of hydrogen, transmuting the hydrogen itself. For example, the sun heats the ocean, same thing here, same principle, I mean.

 

If you take away the sun the ocean freezes, so would your hydrogen.

 

 

It's the contact of degenerating plasma that heats the hydrogen into regular plasma.

 

You really need to explain this process, do you have links to how this works? The degenerating plasma would cool down when it transferred it heat energy to the hydrogen to turn it into plasma.

 

 

By degenerating plasma I mean plasma that is so hot, that it goes through a similar process as plasma in the core of the sun would go through as it's atoms are fused to the point of combustion, releasing energy.

 

So you are saying you have sustainable nuclear fusion reactor? Fusion is what goes on inside the sun not combustion. If so why the laser? BTW, no combustion can take place with out an oxidizer, if you are talking about nuclear fusion say so and leave out the chemical process of combustion.

 

The Laser Beam is quite close, and the light particles are powerfully charged, with a little emphasis on powerfully.

 

There are limits on "powerfully" If you are using a laser to initiate a fusion reaction why not have it on board the ship? It doesn't take a huge sun pumped laser to initiate fusion.

 

You have it ALL screwed up, the plasma is broken apart by heat, and it degenerates into energy, this burning plasma turns all the hydrogen that it makes contact with into regular non-burning plasma, which is degenerated into energy as it makes contact with the previous bursts of combusting plasma.

 

No you have it all screwed up, none of what you are saying makes any real sense, It takes more energy to make plasma than it you can get out of it. No amount of heat will turn matter into anything but hot particles of matter. No matter how hot, plasma will not cause more plasma to come into existence with out loosing energy in the process. You have to have a process that creates more energy that it absorbs, like fusion or fission.

 

This process is repeated infinitely, until either WE run out of fuel, or the craft achieves C, it's a powerful form of self sustenance.

 

No it's techno-babble, what you are proposing makes no sense. You cannot achieve "C" under any circumstances and you have yet to describe anything that is self sustaining and it smacks of perpetual motion to say so.

 

 

Powerful mag-fields would have to be surrounding the craft, and I mean layers of mag fields.

 

These mag fields are shaped into globular cones as they approach a star, the star's coronal ejections will react to slow the craft down enough for a moderately fast orbit around the star, while in orbit the craft will slow down yet again.

 

How would these mag feilds stop dust and uncharged particles?

 

There will not be a return journey.

 

You got that right.

 

Which is why the space station would have to keep supplying more of these large space crafts, until enough of them can build a space station at our destination.

 

Why not use native resources to build what ever you want at the destination?

[Karnuvap]

OK - You got me - I WILL post again.

 

I was only saying that because I didn't want to sound like a wet blanket when there was clearly so much fun being had in this thread.

 

But I see that others are not as reserved as me and they have pointed out to you the impossibility of travelling at lightspeed. My remark was simply pointing out that the equations state that when your ship gets to lightspeed you will be everywhere in the universe including your destination simultaneously. (Which is in another way of saying that you cannot attain lightspeed).

 

However, if we are speculating, A BEC behaves like a large scale quantum entity and the whole of it quantum-leaps all at once. This is a manifestation of the non-locality that was hinted at earlier in the thread. Now, I believe that this non-locality takes place through the tightly curled-up dimensions of string theory. What we need to do is somehow (with enough energy) uncurl one or two of these dimensions just enough to get some of the matter into the newly revealed space and we ought to be able to transport that matter to wherever we want instantaneously.

 

But with that sort of technology at our disposal we wouldn't need to use it to transport mere fuel. We'd use it to transport ourselves (probably).

[Pyrotex]

...But let's not let known reality impinge on this thread. I think I'd better stop posting on here because I am too constrained by what's actually possible to join in the fun speculation.

I guess you'd rather not hear about my Quantum Gravitational Discontinuity drive, either? Hunh? :)

[Moontanman]

I guess you'd rather not hear about my Quantum Gravitational Discontinuity drive, either? Hunh? :doh:

 

I do, I do, I do, :)