Perpetual motion does exsist

[ryan2006]

Have you ever noticed that the sun comes up and the sun goes down while the moon goes around the earth. The stars and galaxies are also in motion. This is convincing evidence of perpetual motion or motion that never stops.

 

Albert Einstein wrote a book called time warp I have never read it, but, a time warp, suggests that motion are different speeds while overall motion is constant.

[Moontanman]

Have you ever noticed that the sun comes up and the sun goes down while the moon goes around the earth. The stars and galaxies are also in motion. This is convincing evidence of perpetual motion or motion that never stops.

 

Albert Einstein wrote a book called time warp I have never read it, but, a time warp, suggests that motion are different speeds while overall motion is constant.

 

Given enough time even the planets will fall into the sun from friction with gases and other objects in space. All stars will end up inside black holes at the center of galaxies. there is no perpetual motion unless the universe is open ended then the expansion of space time will go one forever. the real point is that to tap into the energy of even orbiting planets will slow them down. When we use gravity sling shots to accelerate space craft the planets we use slow down a tiny bit. Never something for nothing, even in space.

[ryan2006]

Let me tell you what I know. First of all, even if a planet falls into the sun because of friction the rest of the universe or universes and all that is in it or them will continue to be in motion unless "God ends time!"

[Moontanman]

Let me tell you what I know. First of all, even if a planet falls into the sun because of friction the rest of the universe or universes and all that is in it or them will continue to be in motion unless "God ends time!"

 

All motion is affected by friction, even stars and galaxies. The universe might not exist long enough for all macro motion to stop due to friction but it would if it had the time!

[ryan2006]

O.K Mr. Friction, perpetual energy does not exist because energy is always converted from one form to another. What kind of universal friction are you talking about? The kind that expands the universe to it's threshold before going back to a singularity? I said the universe went through a wormhole and my model of the universe is eternal. How can you possible say that time would end because of friction?

[Moontanman]

O.K Mr. Friction, perpetual energy does not exist because energy is always converted from one form to another. What kind of universal friction are you talking about? The kind that expands the universe to it's threshold before going back to a singularity? I said the universe went through a wormhole and my model of the universe is eternal. How can you possible say that time would end because of friction?

 

I didn't say time would end I said every thing would slow down due to friction. Friction with gas, dust, radiation. as the universe approaches heat death everything would be sequestered away in black holes which would evaporate into electron positron pairs orbiting each other at a distance of about a light year. Eventually even they would collide and the universe would be made of nothing but photons slowly loosing energy and growing redder and redder. Friction or entropy always wins.

[Moontanman]

BTW I really don't think the universe will die from heat death, I am sure it will recycle way before that could happen, probably from colliding branes. (I think the BB is an illusion but not many here would agree with me)

[ryan2006]

Light still shines in the heavens and black holes would have allready consumed the light if they were that gravitationally strong.

[Moontanman]

Light still shines in the heavens and black holes would have allready consumed the light if they were that gravitationally strong.

 

A black holes strength has noting to do with what I was talking about. In some ways our entire universe can be described as a black hole. as the universe ages more and more material will end up in back holes. But black holes are not forever, they evaporate as electron/positron pairs. If this is taken to it's logical extreme the universe would consist of nothing but photons slowly red shifting into lower and lower wave lengths until they are at their lowest possible state. but this is an extreme example, if the universe is closed it will contract way before this could happen. If brane theory is correct our brane will collide with another brane and both will be full of new energy and matter again. Of course there is also steady state theory but that seems unlikely.

[ryan2006]

It is interesting that you call the universe a black hole. If that was the case we allready would have attracted a second universe. And that is what I had been saying in my theory about the universe going through a wormhole anyway since blackholes have the capabilities to create wormholes. The question is how does this relate to perpetual motion because you have allready indicated that a blackhole will stop mass and matter. However, a blackhole is still traveling through space and time which mean perpetual motion exists+

[Overdog]

I have to agree with Moontanman. In addition to the the kinds of friction he mentions, there is also friction due to tidal forces of gravity. Every time the earth rotates in the gravitational fields of the Sun and Moon, it is stretched a little bit. This stretching creates friction in the earth, and robs the earth a tiny amount of its rotational energy.

 

The moon keeps the same face pointed towards the earth all the time. How likely is it that this is a coincidence? It isn't, because tidal forces have long since robbed the moon of whatever rotational momentum it might have once had.

 

See:

Does the moon rotate?

 

Likewise, although tidal forces from distant objects and galaxies are very weak, they nevertheless do exist, and rob the planets of some tiny amount of orbital momentum. As well, gravitational waves predicted by Einstein are created by bodies orbiting one another. This too slowly robs orbital momentum. So, even in the absence of the kind of friction Moontanman has mentioned, the momentum of EVERYTHING is always being robbed a tiny bit because of gravity.

[modest]

It is interesting that you call the universe a black hole. If that was the case we allready would have attracted a second universe. And that is what I had been saying in my theory about the universe going through a wormhole anyway since blackholes have the capabilities to create wormholes. The question is how does this relate to perpetual motion because you have allready indicated that a blackhole will stop mass and matter. However, a blackhole is still traveling through space and time which mean perpetual motion exists+

 

As Moontanman has already pointed out, there is a distinctive difference between what is normally thought of as a perpetual motion machine and the perpetual motion of bodies that go unresisted. These are actually two different topics.

 

A perpetual motion machine attempts to draw useful energy from some mechanism without inhibiting the machine's ability to continue generating that power in its closed system. Historically a very large number of people have attempted to capitalize on this idea and have never been successful. The first law of thermodynamics makes unlikely such a thing will ever happen.

 

What you've been discussing is Newton's fist law of motion often simply referred to as inertia. If a body is put in motion, it will continue in that motion until some force acts to stop it. Same goes for a body at rest. These are two different topics which have in common the imprecise title "perpetual motion" making statements like the title of this thread somewhat vague. Nevertheless, these two topics are in fact perfectly consistent with each other.

 

~modest

[Moontanman]

It is interesting that you call the universe a black hole. If that was the case we allready would have attracted a second universe.

 

The universe is everything, there can not be a second universe. If indeed there are other parts to our universe how can you say we haven't attracted another "universe" maybe it just hasn't gotten here yet.

 

And that is what I had been saying in my theory about the universe going through a wormhole anyway since blackholes have the capabilities to create wormholes.

 

Black holes create worms holes? That is completely unfounded speculation. recent theories have all but excluded the possibility of wormholes.

 

The question is how does this relate to perpetual motion because you have allready indicated that a blackhole will stop mass and matter. However, a blackhole is still traveling through space and time which mean perpetual motion exists+

 

Black holes do not stop anything they are mass and matter, even black holes are not perpetual, they evaporate and they are also subject to friction and entropy.

[modest]

It is interesting that you call the universe a black hole. If that was the case we allready would have attracted a second universe.

The universe is everything, there can not be a second universe. If indeed there are other parts to our universe how can you say we haven't attracted another "universe" maybe it just hasn't gotten here yet.

 

Closer, I think, to a white hole. :hyper:

 

Here's a really good page on this topic:

 

Is the big bang a black hole?

 

~modest

[Moontanman]

Closer, I think, to a white hole. :)

 

Here's a really good page on this topic:

 

Is the big bang a black hole?

 

~modest

 

I think my idea of the universe being a black hole might be out dated. The premise, if i understand it correctly, was that the universe is closed by gravity so that nothing can escape the event horizon of the universe similar to a black hole. Have "whites" been observed or inferred from observational evidence like black holes have?

[modest]

IHave "whites" been observed or inferred from observational evidence like black holes have?

 

No they've not been observed. A white hole is just a time reversal of a black hole. As gravity is always attractive and time is unidirectional, we've not expected to see nor have we seen a white hole. A white hole is a bit better than a black hole as an analogy to our universe because the singularity is in the past, but neither work very well. For one thing, holes aren't isometric as our universe is. Also, holes are static.

 

Then again, I probably shouldn't have commented being it's way off topic [gulp] :)

 

~modest

[GAHD]

on the original topic of perpetual motion, there's only one instace I've seen: water on the beach.

 

Next time you're out enjoying the sand and watching the kids build castles pay attention to the ones who want to build a "moat" around it. if they dig down enough they'll reach a point a little above water level where the water is sponged up by the sand (surface tension works wonders on those scales), and their moat will self-fill to a certain level. if they dig a trench from that litle moat-pit to the lake, water will continuously flow out in a trickle. "perpetual" motion, of a sort. Seems we tap this along quite a few rivers...old tech that.