Perpetual motion does exsist

[Buffy]

They also stated that the world was flat once.

Claiming a lack of enlightenment is a possibly interesting--although probably uninteresting--opinion, however it contains no persuasive weight.

 

AS I STATED :

 

99.999999999999999999999999% efficent is close enough for me to be perpetual. I'll just add a battery to make up the difference every 100 years kick off a 9v charge for 1 second.

 

Well even if we agree to that fudge, you still need to explain how that level of efficiency is achievable, and if your explanation is:

By MAN this is not possible; by GOD all things are possible.

...then you're not talking about science.

 

If you'd like to talk about science then please do so. Otherwise, representing the interests of our members, we'll ask you to take your proselytizing elsewhere.

"ENERGY CAN NEITHER BE CREATED NOR DESTROIED" and since we know this is a TRUE statement; you must analyze the dissipation of energy normally in the form of HEAT, and since this can be over come it is a matter of configuration.

It can be "overcome" how? By what mechanism can you limit the dissipation to 0.000000000000000000000001%?

 

Never expose yourself unnecessarily to danger; a miracle may not save you...and if it does, it will be deducted from your share of luck or merit, :shrug:

Buffy

[Element6]

Let me get the patten first. Then I will publish it to record.

 

In the meantime, believe that just because a broad support group cannot accept that entropy does not mean lost of energy to a degree of aprx 12% in a system or some other extreamly obsurd ammount, and in fact it is very possible to be limited to 1% or under 1%; does not make you scientists. In fact it makes you speculatist, and by defination very annoying.

 

I will however make a supportative statement; near frictionless mechanics is fairly simple and easy.

[Tormod]

Moved to silly claims.

[C1ay]

In the meantime, believe that just because a broad support group cannot accept that entropy does not mean lost of energy to a degree of aprx 12% in a system or some other extreamly obsurd ammount, and in fact it is very possible to be limited to 1% or under 1%; does not make you scientists. In fact it makes you speculatist, and by defination very annoying.

 

I will however make a supportative statement; near frictionless mechanics is fairly simple and easy.

 

Please do since the rules here require it. Simply making a claim that something is possible is NOT scientific at all. As a matter of fact the steady stream of unsupported claims we see here is very annoying so act like a scientist and post some proof.......NOW.

[Buffy]

Let me get the patten first. Then I will publish it to record.

Let us know!

 

In the meantime, believe that just because a broad support group cannot accept that entropy does not mean lost of energy...

 

This is a gross and self-serving misrepresentation of the posts above. This statement indicates a either an intent--rather pointless I might say, given the audience--to gain sympathy for "persecution" of your opinion, or a complete misunderstanding of the meaning of "loss of energy" in an open system.

 

Conservation of Energy applies only in a "closed system". Any "machine" "loses energy" because it is an open system and loses it to the surrounding environment.

 

The challenge in a "perpetual motion machine" is that there is no way to capture that loss and harness or redirect it. Various machines do indeed use mechanisms to recapture heat and other elements of energy within the machine, however in most machines that ability to capture that energy before it is lost is quite low.

 

If you properly understand the terms "open system" and "closed system" then you will realize that the principle of Conservation of Energy provides no support whatsoever to the notion that perpetual motion exists, in fact it directly indicates that it is impossible, because it is not possible to create a perfectly closed system, and even if you did, it would do you no good! Don't you want to use that power for something? Then you'll need to "open" the system that contains your machine!

 

In fact it makes you speculatist, and by defination very annoying.

If you would like to borrow a mirror, I'd be happy to provide one.

 

I will however make a supportative statement; near frictionless mechanics is fairly simple and easy.

You can save the planet if you provide this. So please do! ;)

 

To keep this secret to yourself would be a crime against humanity.

 

Lifts and separates,

Buffy

[Qfwfq]

99.999999999999999999999999% efficent is close enough for me to be perpetual.

Close enough for you doesn't mean that it actually is perfect. In any case, there's no point expecting to make much money from it, at the most you could use it as a storage of energy. No great novelty.

 

It doesn't even make sense to give a percentage, without a time scale. Could you say what fraction of orbital kinetic energy planet Earth loses? No, because it depends on the time period you're talking about. The fraction is very tiny, even over centuries; it's even tinier over a matter of hours. In a given time, it loses a much larger fraction of rotational kinetic energy due to tides, but again it's just a matter of what fraction in what time. :phones:

 

For others here, I'll try again to make the distinction. To what extent dissipation can be eliminated is a practical issue. The consequence of thermodynamics is that not all of thermally dissipated energy can be reconverted, but thermodynamics does not address the matter of how well dissipation may be eliminated in general. As far goes thermodynamics, a process may be reversible if it takes place in thermal equilibrium; this means infinitely slowly for a heat engine so, for these, one can only say the nearer TE the less irreversible it may be. It has no bearing though on non statistical mechanical matters such as reducing friction.

 

Entropy only comes into relevance once there has been a thermal dissipation. If Maxwell's demon could work, friction and the likes wouldn't be a such a concern but, without these, entropy wouldn't be a concern. Entropy alone isn't sufficient to prove the case.

[flexinglarge]

Okay, just a mere observation, The amount of energy to set an object in motion will not produce more energy then original set value, to achive 100% efficiency on a man made machine would only yield energy equal to the amount of energy introduced. 100% efficiency of course elimates all friction from equation, and if the cosmos wasn't able to figure it out, then we will not be able to either, so 99.9999999999999% efficiency will evenually consume 100% of introduced energy.

[Djames]

I think the idea of perpetual motion refers to what is possible on earth and all the inhibitive factors that that implies. In space it is the norm rather than the exception. Take a rifle into free space , shoot it off and both you and the bullet will move almost indifintely, although you, because of your greater mass, will move slower than the bullet. Yet, who knows, someone might yet come up with a perpetual motion machine on earth. There is a clock that has been going non-stop for more than 180 years. There is a battery that has been working for even longer. So stay tuned !

Edited August 20, 2012 by McQueen

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

I think the idea of perpetual motion refers to what is possible on earth and all the inhibitive factors that that implies. In space it is the norm rather than the exception. Take a rifle into free space , shoot it off and both you and the bullet will move almost indifintely, although you, because of your greater mass, will move slower than the bullet. Yet, who knows, someone might yet come up with a perpetual motion machine on earth. There is a clock that has been going non-stop for more than 180 years. There is a battery that has been working for even longer. So stay tuned !

First off see the text I bolded and underlined above. Almost indefinitely is not the same as indefinitely aka perpetual.

 

Perpetual motion describes "Motion that continues indefinitely without any external source of energy "

The problem with perpetual motion is that without an input of energy you cannot harness an output of energy without consuming the energy already present in the system.

Choose your energy drain gravity, friction, magnetism all are present everywhere in the known universe to varying degrees but present.

 

 

Secondly references for your statement about the battery and clock please. If you cannot post links to them you can certainly provide the name and details of your source.

 

Example: The quoted below are from Wikipedia articles found by searching battery and capacitor on Wiki.

 

A battery is a device that converts chemical energy directly to electrical energy.

A capacitor(originally known as condenser) is a passive two-terminal electrical component used to store energy in an electric field.

 

 

However I highly doubt the clock has been running without an external source of power for 180 years. And the battery you claim has been working even longer is significantly more unlikely. Batteries decomposition is central to their function. Without decomposition a battery will not produce power. I'd believe a capacitor having an extraordinarily long useful life but not a battery. But that is because there are capacitors do not rely on chemical decomposition to function. Capacitors store electricity only and do not actually produce it. Depending on the components of a capacitor and it's working environment some types could remain functional for many decades at least (a leyden jar comes to mind at the moment,). But would not hold a charge for that long with currently available materials. In any case even if there was a battery that could survive the erosion of it's anode and cathode and the depletion of it's electrolyte for hundreds of years it is incredibly unlikely that it would not need to be recharged on at least a monthly basis.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ti@NiS]

The perpetual motion inside a black hole is not possible since the baryons that fall within the accelerate at breakneck speed and move from a low mass to the Planck mass.

[Djames]

DFINITLYDISTRUBD,

Sorry about that, I guess I was taking the subject more in a humourous vein, rather than as a serious topic. First of all what about time scale, human intelligence has been around for maybe two million years or less, being generous, while a proton has an estimated life time of about 10 ²² years which obviously is something quite incomprehensible. So if a proton were accelerated in deep space it could in effect, providing it met no barriers, travel for ever So looked at from a human perspective perpetual motion in deep space, does for all practical purposes exist. On the other hand looked at soberly and without latitude, even the Universe doesn't last forever.

 

Here are links to the machines I was talking about, although of course in the strict sense they are not perpetual motion machines of the first kind that work without any input of energy:

 

The Beverley Clock has been working since 1864 with only one or two stoppages:

 

The Oxford Electric Bell has been ringing non-stop since 1840:

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Thanks for the links. Cool stuff! Would really love to see a schematic of the clock's mechanism. Think I'm going to have to do some digging.

I guess I was taking the subject more in a humourous vein, rather than as a serious topic.

Jokes on me I think...I'm missing something.

"There is something lamentable, degrading, and almost insane in pursuing the visionary schemes of past ages with dogged determination, in paths of learning which have been investigated by superior minds, and with which such adventurous persons are totally unacquainted. The history of Perpetual Motion is a history of the fool-hardiness of either half-learned, or totally ignorant persons."^[13]

—Henry Dircks,

Perpetuum Mobile: Or, A History of the Search for Self-motive

(1861)

 

I think there need be a term for describing extremely long lived energy storage devices / machines that are extremely efficient in their function.........Like HyperEfficient Device... There's as far as I can tell no proper term for say machines that run vor a very very long time after an initial input of energy....I gotta go get some coffee, the brain she no werke.

[pagetheoracle]

Have you ever noticed that the sun comes up and the sun goes down while the moon goes around the earth. The stars and galaxies are also in motion. This is convincing evidence of perpetual motion or motion that never stops.

 

Albert Einstein wrote a book called time warp I have never read it, but, a time warp, suggests that motion are different speeds while overall motion is constant.

I think life is perpetual motion as it replaces itself as a self-repairing mechanism and where this fails (accidents / illness and death from these), it replaces the old organism with a new one.  One top of this it evolves to fit in with changes in the environment it encounters.