Keeping Pets Is Reprehensible

[Turtle]

It's quarter past 11 at night and I had my yucks on Fox cartoons, my beer, my coffee, my water, and my aspirin. I have read the most recent posts and will just go with an informal no-quotes post for now.

 

Not that I can sleep, but I'm staying up late because I still have to run the gauntlet past the dog house in order to take my refuse to the curb for pickup in the morning and I want to be damn comfortable thinking the dogs are sleeping. (no; my roommates won't take the garbage out for me. the only thing they have to do with the trash is making it, but that's another story.)

 

Let's see here...oh yeah, bear spray. not a whacky idea, but hardly workable for me. looks like they're ~$50 and I assure you if I used it on a dog I would be the one in trouble. thanks though.

 

Then we have....oh yeah...guns. i have trained in the use & safety of firearms from the age of 10. among the top rules of gun safety, be sure of your backstop. my backstops in every direction are homes full of people and not on my life would I risk shooting a gun and having a richochet or mis-shot that might kill someone. second no-gun reason; same as above for the bear spray in that I'd be at least immediately hauled to jail for even discharging a gun. third reason for no-gun; as we have seen by the stats presented here, even if the dogs got me down they would most likely only maul me and not kill me so logically I should know that my life is not in danger and deadly force is not justified.

 

i have reported these dogs once and the authorities came and talked to the people. i only know this because i saw them pull up and i was never aprised of their action or contacted in any way by them after my report. since i have to contact them anyway i'm going to try & work up the balls to ask about their program for trapping the cats that are killing birds in my yard and crapping in my veggie garden. if it ain't one damn thing it's another.

 

all in all, no i don't think my experience is an exception in general, and for me specifically this is the 2nd incident of a dozen or so in 5 years and 3 houses that has gone critical. but hey, who's counting right? anyway, i think this general attitude towards pets as wonderful contributors to society you all have so touchingly expressed induces people to not report problems and in fact is held by the animal control people themselves. well, like they'd hire animal control people that don't like pets.

 

well, gonna go lay on the heating pad and watch the seeker while I wait for 1 am or so. at least i have my trash in my metal wagon and if the dogs attack i may be able to keep it between me & them. god i don't want them to catch me out in the open. maybe i should get a dog for protection. anyway, cheerio. :friday:

[freeztar]

It sucks that you have to be fearful about taking out the trash. :doh:

 

As long as you face the dogs and show confidence I don't think you'll have any problems. I've been in some hairy situations in backwoods Georgia where dogs came barking at my ankles when I (legally) trespassed onto property to survey wetlands. It's very intimidating when you have two pitbulls following you and growling/barking as you walk. My colleague showed me how to ignore them and keep a safe distance. Ignorance is very powerful with intimidating dogs! Nonetheless, I kept my machete in hand and I would not hesitate to use it if necessary. :friday:

[pamela]

Turtle, I am sure that alot of meter readers can relate to your frustration on this one. Have you considered a taser? I realise that it is the responsibility of the idiot owner of these animals to keep them chained in their yard, but you need to do something. Shocking these guys, just may do the trick, for at least your yard and peace of mind and safety

[CraigD]

So until or unless these dogs owners show up, I can't check my mail, I can't take my refuse to the curb, and I can't walk to my car without coming under attack.

Wow. I feel bad now for arguing with you so forcefully, Turtle. :( I though you were arguing about pets in general (well, in truth, I still think you are, but that’s beside the point), not about a specific pack of dogs that’s bared their teeth at you.

 

You sound like you’re making the right moves to fix the situation, which is clearly a case of a very negligent owner allowing his dogs to behave like a pack of dogs instinctively will. Animals kept this way are not, I think, fully pets, but about half feral. Sadly, having lived years in rural places, I’ve seen this many times, the worst a pack of 8 or 9 well fed and cared for, collar-wearing dogs, with some of whom I’d had friendly pettings, damaging a milk cow so badly the cow had to be euthanized. In this case, which happened miles from the nearest paved road, the owners honestly didn’t know that their free-running dogs were up to when they weren’t being friendly pets. Your case, Turtle, sounds much different: you appear to have the misfortune of living near a dog-owning *******.

 

You’re wise, I think, not to try fighting these dogs with gun, cane, bat, machete, taser, or any other weapons folk might suggest, except pepper spray. As you rightly note, firing a gun near human bystanders invites tragedy, and I can attest from personal experience that a serious fight with even a single un-intimidating looking, medium size dog can be much harder than people imagine – and I fought my worst fight with a dog when I was an athletic 21 year old. Dogs can be shocking good at fighting.

 

I think the suggestion to use a pepper spray is a good one. I think ordinary self-protection products, rather than bear-grade stuff, would repel dogs, even without a direct stream or cloud hit. Though some restrictions about its size, strength, sale, shipping, and users age apply in various jurisdictions, pepper spray is legal for self-defense anywhere in the US. The main drawback I’ve found with pepper spray is that it’s nasty to use, as some of the mist and liquid gets on its user.

 

You may have a hard struggle ahead of you in getting police or animal control to do their job and either force the owner to lock up his dogs or take them away from him until after they’ve bitten you or someone else.

 

Maybe you’ll have the good fortune to involve a cop like the state trooper who accompanied my wife on a home investigation when she was a WV state child protective social worker. On this occasion, as she and the trooper approached near the edge of yard of an out-in-the-hollers house, they were greeted by a barking dog. My wife was shocked when the trooper drew his gun and yelled out that if they didn’t lock up the dog, he’d kill it. A combination of the owner’s obedience and the dog’s instinctive good sense (like many dogs, he seemed to recognize that a gun was pointed at him, and immediately retreated) resulted in no human or beast dieing there that day, and the rest of the visit was uneventful. Afterwards, my wife asked the trooper about the dog incident, and he showed her a missing joint of his little finger, lost in the last dog encounter he had before deciding on the gun-drawn approach.

 

A final note. You wrote

…even if the dogs got me down they would most likely only maul me and not kill me so logically I should know that my life is not in danger and deadly force is not justified.

From what I know of WV, VA, and MD state law, you may legally kill a dog or out-of-season wild animal on no more than the reasonable suspicion that it is about to attack you, even if you’re confident it wouldn’t kill or seriously injure you in the attack.

 

It’s not a good idea to kill a vicious animal if you can instead capture it, because if someone has been bitten by it, it takes longer and has a greater risk of error to rule out rabies infection by testing a dead animal’s brain tissue than by observing the live animal. If a strange animal has bitten you and you can’t capture it, however, it’s better to kill it and keep the body for testing than to let it escape. If bitten by an animal that escapes, you must promptly receive post-exposure rabies treatment, an uncomfortable month-long treatment, or, if you were infected, you will almost certainly die.

[Moontanman]

Turtle, if you are uncomfortable with a gun, I was suggesting a shot gun for the very reason that a shot gun fired toward the ground just goes into the ground, not like a pistol or rifle, don't use a gun. I think the idea of mace, it's harmless in the long run, is a good idea, mail carriers use it all the time. One of my dogs was maced once, pissed me off but i got over it and I made sure my dog wasn't ever near the mail man again. (it was a big mistake, but the guy was afraid so he did what he should have) Be that as it may you need to call the law again, and again, and again. aggravate the living hell out of them. make sure your fears are registered with them so when it comes time to do something drastic the laws will have a record of your fear. Where I live there is a leash law and any dog not on a leash will be picked up by animal control if you call them. They will do it right in front of the owner. no leash the dog goes to jail. the owner gets fined, it escalates up from there. In all seriousness if I was confronted by a vicious dog in my own yard I would do my best to kill it. I no longer live in the city limits so even the law couldn't do anything to me. In your case, living so close to so many people I would be calling the law and animal control every time I saw those mutts out and about. the squeaky wheel gets the grease dude. No excuse for allowing dogs like that roam or any dog in my mind, even nice dogs will become aggressive in groups like CraigC said. Call animal control ,the sheriff, anyone who will listen, do it every day, eventually they will do something if nothing just to get you off their back and next you have a Town or county meeting attend it and try to get leash law passed, drum up support for leash law, it's the only way. BTW a water gun with ammonia is very effective as well, I used to carry one when riding bikes, they will go away if you squirt it in their face.

[Turtle]

Well, morning has broken, blackbird has spoken. ;) If it weren't for humor, things would be a lot tougher for us allback . :P No worries Craig et al on putting forward strong arguments; I expect nothing less from you on any topic and it's a good part of what keeps me here.

 

The neighborhood is quiet and everyone in a 3 block radius is hiding out whether they know what the rucous was or not. Today I'll put the video on a CD and write a report & mail it in. To show what a sense of humor the Universe has, while I was out at market getting a big envelope and some tobacco a friend of a roomy came to the house & brought his doggy. :dog: They heard me come back and are now hiding out in a bedroom 'til they think the coast is clear. I'm off to watch noon news and let them get out. :eek2: :(

[modest]

Look, I'm too distraught right now to handle your posts with any clarity; please allow me to respond later.

 

I would rather you did not respond to the rest of my previous post. It's now apparent that the only relevant part of my response was concerning your neighbor's dogs. My heart goes out to you. I do understand the stress of having a constant and pervasive danger and its obnoxious effect on the psyche. I sincerely hope this situation is resolved quickly and completely and knowing how capable you are, I have no doubt it will be.

 

Does this happen often? If so, I would recommend getting some Bear Spray...

Let's see here...oh yeah, bear spray. not a whacky idea, but hardly workable for me. looks like they're ~$50 and I assure you if I used it on a dog I would be the one in trouble. thanks though.

 

Bear spray is more expensive because it comes in bigger cans that deliver the spray quicker. While that's nice, it's not necessary. For around 10-15 dollars you can get:

Mace Brand Muzzle Dog Repellent Spray

It is reviewed by Associated Content:

Product Review: Mace Muzzle Dog Repellent Spray - Associated Content

which gives it high marks. You certainly will not get in trouble for protecting yourself by using pepper spray on a dog.

 

When I was 15-16 I worked for my Uncle who is a veterinarian. I had to work with some rescued dogs and I can tell you some of the things that my uncle told me.

 

I personally wouldn't try to 'shoo away' a barking dog. Waving your arms or your cane and hollering will excite them and possibly scare them which is the opposite of what you want to do. The idea is not to scare them off by confronting them. The best thing you can do is ignore them. If you're getting the mail or taking out the trash or whatever then don't make eye contact or acknowledge them at all even if they are barking. Walk a normal speed very confidently.

 

A barking dog is not necessarily confronting you. It could be saying 'this is my territory and I don't want you over here'. If they come within striking distance then stop walking. Don't make eye contact. Be confident and assertive by holding your ground. Don't point and wave your arms and shout "go! get out of here!". Any excited energy that you project will be picked up on and returned by the dogs.

 

As long as any one of them is within striking distance and is confronting you (ears back, head set low to the shoulders, staring you down, showing teeth) then don't move forward or backward. If you have pepper spray then don't use it yet. It's very likely you'll diffuse the situation just by waiting for them to come out of hunt/attack mode by being calm and and relaxed. If they do ease up (stop showing teeth, relax shoulders, break eye contact) then back up slowly. Don't turn your back to them and don't run.

 

If you are calm and confident and do nothing to escalate the situation then it is very unlikely they will attack. This, at least, is my experience. Of course, if you have pepper spray then it's very easy to be calm and confident, and if they do lunge or snap at you, the pepper spray will assure that's the last time that happens.

 

I just think it's awful that you have to be in any kind of danger just stepping outside. Isn't there a leash law? A homeowners association? Animal control? It's hard to imagine your neighbor could get away with putting people in danger like that. I would find it absolutely intolerable. :(

 

I wish you the best of luck in getting it sorted out.

 

~modest

[Turtle]

...

I just think it's awful that you have to be in any kind of danger just stepping outside. Isn't there a leash law? A homeowners association? Animal control? It's hard to imagine your neighbor could get away with putting people in danger like that. I would find it absolutely intolerable. :P

 

I wish you the best of luck in getting it sorted out.

 

~modest

 

Yes there is a leash law, but I don't see many observing it. When I went for a walk on that trail over at Lacamas Lake a couple weeks back, of the 5 people with dogs that I passed, 3 had them off leash in spite of the law. I see dogs walking their people off leash often around my entire metropolitan area. Last week a couple came down my walk with their dog on a leash and the neighbors dogs I'm having problems with were running free and the couple just smiled and made some joke about how frisky they were. ;) I have another near neighbor that lets their black lab run free and it rarely comes in my yard and runs if shooed so I haven't reported them because of the grief involved. This is I believe characteristic of a broadly held view by many pet owners that they have a natural right and the law and everyone else be damned.

 

The neighbors that own the dogs menacing me are an elderly & infirm couple, which makes me all the more a big meany in everyones' eyes for putting them in a position of possibly loosing their companions. It nags at even me, but I have spent a lifetime putting the needs of others over mine and the professionals have told me that is unhealthy. Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't. :(

 

I am drafting a list of suggestions in response to your question on what I think ought be done. Give me a few days to get it in order. :eek2:

[Moontanman]

Turtle, I really feel for you, but in this case you must take the initiative, call animals control every time you see the dogs out. If it's 20 times a day then so be it. I love dogs, I've had them all my life but I've never been above protecting myself from dangerous ones. I love my dogs but I keep mine in my fenced in back yard, in my house or on a leash. I am well aware that even a friendly dog can look evil in the eyes of some so i take steps to make sure my dogs don't get a chance to give anyone a hard time. It's all part of being a responsible pet owner. Modest is indeed correct in his ideas about not showing dogs fear, most dogs do this because they have been mistreated in some way by their owners and they have an axe to grind. Once they learn they can intimidate a human it's all over. They will pursue this game until they have a bad experience with it. Mace would be that bad experience! I am lucky to live some where self defense is a given. Get some mace, i know mace taught one of my dogs to not bother the mail man . Get some mace, practice being dominant, dogs will always try to get over some one they sense fear in. to be honest I guess I'm just a hot head, but mace is a good compromise between a gun and being attacked.

[Turtle]

Turtle, I really feel for you, but in this case you must take the initiative, call animals control every time you see the dogs out. If it's 20 times a day then so be it. I love dogs, I've had them all my life but I've never been above protecting myself from dangerous ones. I love my dogs but I keep mine in my fenced in back yard, in my house or on a leash. I am well aware that even a friendly dog can look evil in the eyes of some so i take steps to make sure my dogs don't get a chance to give anyone a hard time. It's all part of being a responsible pet owner. Modest is indeed correct in his ideas about not showing dogs fear, most dogs do this because they have been mistreated in some way by their owners and they have an axe to grind. Once they learn they can intimidate a human it's all over. They will pursue this game until they have a bad experience with it. Mace would be that bad experience! I am lucky to live some where self defense is a given. Get some mace, i know mace taught one of my dogs to not bother the mail man . Get some mace, practice being dominant, dogs will always try to get over some one they sense fear in. to be honest I guess I'm just a hot head, but mace is a good compromise between a gun and being attacked.

 

Take some initiative=grow some stones. :) As it happens, I did just that. Rather than delaying all with mailing a report, I wrote out a short script so I could give just the facts and then I phoned it in. :) They said they would send an officer to talk with them.

 

On my shooing of the dogs: A number of factors at play here, and I'm assuming the recording caught some little of an example of my vocalizing. :umno: :eek: I faced the dogs, made myself look as big and menacing as possible and added the shouting for more power. This all I escalated in response to the dogs' increasing aggression. Suburbia aside, this is the recommended first tactic when facing a bear, coyote, or cougar in my parts. (when I'm in the woods, I arm myself with a large caliber handgun with heavy full-metal jacket loads. I see no excuse to ever make someone choose bear spray over a firearm in any wild environs. :doh:) But, I digress.... As if.... so, as to my hollering: part is my learning as a lifeguard and instructor that volume is equally important to loudness when vocally transmitting commands. part obviously to intimidate the animals. part to make damn sure everyone in the neighborhood knew that I knew that they knew what was going on but weren't gonna do anything about it let alone acknowledge it. part mad as hell by that time.

 

So, we have met the extremes and nothing wrong with that, for without them there is no means. As a means of better managing animal ownership, I suggest that all animal license appplicants meet a requirement of education in the laws and responsibilities and consequences of pet ownership. This could be a 10 or 15 minute video at the license center. After the viewing they would sign an affadavit. I suggest further (further suggest? :umno: :) ) that such instruction exclude loaded terms such as "companion", "pet", "special friend" or any such expression that biases the information against the law & its reason in favor of the animals. Just the facts Mam; just the facts.

 

That's a wrap, from this sap's yap, :)

[Moontanman]

You do know that in bear country they issue super pepper spray and little bells to wear so the bears know where you are so you won't surprise them. Hikers wear the bells and carry the pepper spray so they can spray the bears if they try to attack.

 

This very important!

 

The way to tell Grizzly bear scat from black bear scat;

 

Black bear scat smells like pepper spray

 

Grizzly bear scat smells like pepper spray and has little bells in it :umno:

[Turtle]

You do know that in bear country they issue super pepper spray and little bells to wear so the bears know where you are so you won't surprise them. Hikers wear the bells and carry the pepper spray so they can spray the bears if they try to attack.

 

This very important!

 

The way to tell Grizzly bear scat from black bear scat;

 

Black bear scat smells like pepper spray

 

Grizzly bear scat smells like pepper spray and has little bells in it :umno:

 

When I hiked to Half Dome with a bell on my staff, everyone though I was nuts. No guns allowed there & I never saw or heard spray mentioned. We have black bears here. This business of saying "try to attack" is nonsense. An attack is an attack period. If they don't harm you it's just a failed attack. I will not carry anything but a gun when I'm in the forest. It all happens just as fast and if the spray doesn't work there's no time left for the gun.

 

Gotta run. :umno:

[modest]

I will not carry anything but a gun when I'm in the forest. It all happens just as fast and if the spray doesn't work there's no time left for the gun.

 

Gotta run. :umno:

 

Scientific studies actually show that bear spray is more effective in stopping a bear attack than a gun. The reason is the same reason you give: it happens very fast. To kill a bear takes on average 4 shots. Apparently injuring a bear with gunfire increases the ferociousness of the attack. It takes the bear a while to die and it can severely injure or kill a person in that while.

 

Of course, not all rifles nor all riflemen are created equally. :umno:

 

Smith and his team analyzed 20 years worth of incidents in Alaska, and found that the wilderness equivalent of pepper spray effectively deterred bears 92 percent of the time, whereas guns only did the trick one-third less often.

 

Drop the Rifle and Pick up the Bear Spray | Popular Science

 

We present a comprehensive look at a sample of bear spray incidents that occurred in Alaska, USA, from 1985 to 2006. We analyzed 83 bear spray incidents involving brown bears (Ursus arctos; 61 cases, 74%), black bears (Ursus americanus; 20 cases, 24%), and polar bears (Ursus maritimus; 2 cases, 2%). Of the 72 cases where persons sprayed bears to defend themselves, 50 (69%) involved brown bears, 20 (28%) black bears, and 2 (3%) polar bears. Red pepper spray stopped bears' undesirable behavior 92% of the time when used on brown bears, 90% for black bears, and 100% for polar bears. Of all persons carrying sprays, 98% were uninjured by bears in close-range encounters. All bear-inflicted injuries (n = 3) associated with defensive spraying involved brown bears and were relatively minor (i.e., no hospitalization required). In 7% (5 of 71) of bear spray incidents, wind was reported to have interfered with spray accuracy, although it reached the bear in all cases. In 14% (10 of 71) of bear spray incidents, users reported the spray having had negative side effects upon themselves, ranging from minor irritation (11%, 8 of 71) to near incapacitation (3%, 2 of 71). Bear spray represents an effective alternative to lethal force and should be considered as an option for personal safety for those recreating and working in bear country.

 

BioOne Online Journals - Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska

[Turtle]

Scientific studies actually show that bear spray is more effective in stopping a bear attack than a gun. The reason is the same reason you give: it happens very fast. To kill a bear takes on average 4 shots. Apparently injuring a bear with gunfire increases the ferociousness of the attack. It takes the bear a while to die and it can severely injure or kill a person in that while.

 

Of course, not all rifles nor all riflemen are created equally. :)

 

Excellent! I am favorably persuaded and I might afterall budget for a can and at least make it an addition to my usual kit-n-kaboodle. We should prolly check to see if/and/or how the pepper sprays work on Cougars too, as they have a far different habit than bears. If cougars hear you, whether you mean them to or not, they often will get just off trail, above the trail if possible, and wait for you to pass & then attack from above or behind. :) For the most dangerous animal in the forest, it is best not to come to a gun-fight with pepper spray. :umno: :umno::)

[lemit]

I hope I'm repeating other posts.

 

People have domesticated animals for a few millenia, as both service animals and companion animals. Can anyone find a developed society that has outlawed that practice? It seems to me, in fact, that the definition of civilization (and I have to admit it's been a few decades since I read "The Golden Bough") has generally included how people have treated those domesticated animals. I can't remember offhand any instance of a civilization that was defined by the absence of domesticated animals.

 

Also, I wonder if there are other people out there who have experienced what the rural generation before me believed: the mark of decency and civility in a farmer was part his devotion to an old-fashioned form of Christianity and part how he treated the horses that worked for him.

 

Yes, that's oversimplified. But the informing principles are not. It's those principles we need to think about.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

 

--lemit

[TheBigDog]

Two words Turtle; poison meatball. Of course there are many ways to rid the neighborhood of unwanted vermin, you just need to be very clever about how you do it. For instance, if you accidentally hit a dog with your car it is the dog's fault. If you drive over a dog that you have sedated and placed under the tire of your car, well...

[Racoon]

:hihi: @ Turtle

 

Great advice all around, but you face more imminent threat from ticks , mosquitoes, spiders, and other bugs that carry Nastiness.., than you do Bears or Cougars.

:phones: