Matter & Energy

[Whitestar]

Hi.

 

I'm an aspiring science fiction writer and I'm currently developing a story in which scientists have

created the first teleportation device. I am having a somewhat difficult time as to how I want it

to work. I'm considering using a matter-energy conversion type of teleporter, which involves

converting a person into energy and sending it like a radio signal, in which that person will travel

at the speed of light. Once the person arrives at the destination, the energy is reconverted back

into matter. But there are some things about this theorical technology that I find questionable.

 

For example, if you don't convert an individual into energy, you have a large chunck of matter

such as a light adult weighing about sixty kilograms that needs to be put into some sort of

suspension matrix for transportation. Okay, on to more ethical implications on this theorical

technology. Let's say that John Doe undergoes teleportation by converting him into energy and

back into matter once he's reached his destination, would it still be the same person? A replica,

maybe? Perhaps it's a matter of semantics; a replica may be an imprecise term. The assumption

is that the John Doe who steps off the teleportation device will for all intent and purpose be the

exact same as the person who stepped on, with all his physical features, thought processes,

personality and memory, even his brainwave patterns. However, I think that under this

technological theory, it will still be a reconstruction of the original, NOT the original itself.

 

I am aware of the fact that today's use of teleportation requires quantum entanglements, but I

would like to create my own type of teleporter, this is afterall, science fiction. The thing that

troubles me is the matter-energy conversion process plausible? That is, will it ensure and

preserve personal survival (life) or death?

 

 

Thoughts anyone?

[Tormod]

Hi Whitestar -

 

what is the difference between this post and your earlier post on the subject? Have you got any further? The replica discussion we did only a few weeks ago...check the forums and you'll find it.

 

And of course...feel free to follow up if it does not give you any useful ideas.

 

Tormod

[gravmania]

A "teleporter" is an ultimate technology and should be avoided if sci-fi stories.

One can conquer the galaxy/universe with nothing but teleporters (and nukes).

Almost any problem encountered in Startrek could have been solved with teleporters.

One doesn't even really need warpdrives if one has teleporters.

For me personally they can really ruin a good story.

 

gravmania

[Bo]

Simply saying: Well we transform this and this to Energy, somehow we capture thewavefunction of every particle and then we rebuild this all somewhere else is quite sloppy of course... and in practice you would run into huge problems (which i wont even begin to discuss )

Welll for other ideas: you can look at my post on extra dimensional gravity in the "gravity problem" threat on the physics board. Dont know exactly how you should use this, but still it might be nice

another thing you might consider is: Brian Greene showed that the 11D space time manifold does not always have to be rigid or compact. So in principle it is possible to rip spacetime apart in a very crude and unsubtle way. Maybe with this you can make some sort of wormhole but instead of curving a 4D spacetime manifold, You take the curvature of one of the higher dimensions string theory predicts to make your travel. (which somewhere even makes more sense, since they are finite and closed) (you should read 'the elegant universe' By Greene, it's a great book in which topics like these are explained)

Onother thing you could consider is nontrivial extra time dimensions (which could be infinite or finite). As you might know string theory predicts 10 spacetime dimensions. And in general it is thought that this would mean: 1 time direction and a bunch of space directions. But in principle in your book you could state that there are actuall 2 dime directions and 8 or so space directions. You could create some sort of teleportation by saying that someone stands still in 'our' time, which he can only do by travelling through the other time dimension (and space of course, otherwise he wouldn't get anywhere...) If you make this seconde time dimension finite and closed; At a certain time in that dimension he wel get back at his starting point (and can continue to travel in normal time), while in space he has travelled some....

 

Just to get this right: I dont think any of the above is anywhere near a realistic idea for teleportation, but still, speculation is neat

 

Hop you can do something whith this, Bo

[Whitestar]

Hi Bo.

 

 

Actually, I am considering using the extra dimensions concept for teleportation. However, I also have a couple of other possibilities for teleportation.

 

 

Hole Teleportation - Atoms are mostly empty space, right? What makes a wall solid is not the existence of the particles but of the electric fields between the particles. For example, my hand is stopped from going through my desk when I slam it down primarily because of the electric repulsion felt by the electrons in the atoms in my hand due to the presence of the electrons in the atoms of the desk and not because of the lack of available space for the electrons to move through. Hence, the way to accomplish teleportation is to overcome the electric forces between atoms.

 

 

Let's say a crew member wishes to teleport from the ship to his house. The teleport system first has to send a particle scanner that can penetrate the ceiling of his house without punching a hole in it. Think of it like infrared vision or something similar. Next, a beam of light peers through the floor of the ship (as well as the ceiling of the teleportee's house) by overcoming the bonds between the atoms themselves. A secondary beam envelops the teleportee. This secondary beam protects the teleportee by preventing his electrical bonds from breaking apart, unlike the floor on the ship and the ceiling of his house.

 

 

The teleportee is then send through this beam and enters his house with no problems. Finally, the beam deactivates and the electric charges that hold the ceiling, as well as the floor of the ship reattaches itself. I would like to stress that the secondary beam operates by overcoming the electric forces that hold the atoms together, but not so much that the matter of the floor on the ship and the ceiling in the house collapses, just enough to permit entry and exit to and from the ship/planet.

 

 

Space Warp Teleportation - Here is my other theory on teleportation. Picture this: a crew member steps onto the teleporter pad and the space around him or her begins to get distorted. The teleporter folds space which in turn allows the teleportee to teleport from the ship to the inside of a building without punching a hole in it.

 

 

Based on what I listed here, which form or type of teleportation seems to be the most plausible for humans? Quantum teleportation, matter/energy conversion, extra dimensions, wormholes, hole teleportation or space warp teleportation?

 

 

Whitestar

[Bo]

Well the idea of hole teleportation seems highly inplausible to me, because the ability to interact electromagneticlu (or strong and weak; these interactions are necessary to consider) are intrinsic properties of particles. your theory needs these properties to be altered. Since these properties are intrinsic to your origninall particles, you need to change the type of particles into something that doesnt interact with anything (no such particles are ever predicted). Well since a change from particle A to B means that particle B interacts in some way with particle A, this is simply not possible.`

as to what in my oppinion is the 'best' sollution: Well definitly not something on the elementary particle level, because quantum uncertainty would spoil any attempt. Also matter/energy conversion methods will fail because of these uncertainties.

In my oppinion the only "plausiable" (but still highly questionable!) options involve manipulations of spacetime. So i think the options then are:

1) The 'standard' worm hole: our 4D space time manifold folds back onto itself 2) Our 4D manifold doesn't fold back into itself, but instead is curved in such a way that a small path in a 5th dimension links 2 distant points. 3) There's an extra time dimension. You would still need to travel normally, but in the normal world no time is lost. 4) instead of nicely folded, space time is ripped apart and then reassembled in a different way.

note: a) that 2-4 need string theory to work; b)we have no means to effectively curve space time so that it folds back onto itself (you need density's of the order of a black hole; this would ruin any spaceship ) for the ripping of spacetime: we have no idea what can cause that (we only know that it is in principle not forbidden by the laws of string theory); c)Higher dimensions, if they exist at all, are only accassible at extremely high energy's; higher dimensions are most probably infinitly small and so could never be used in any kind of travel; d) If they aren't infinitly small, then our ordinary matter (actually everything except maybe the graviton) is confined to our normal 4D manifold.

So many problems are still left...Hope this helps your thoughts a little bit.[n]

Bo

[Freethinker]

Let's see tachyon particles or by varying probablility and using variable probablility.

[Whitestar]

Hi Bo.

 

 

Your comment,

 

 

"Well the idea of hole teleportation seems highly inplausible to me, because the ability to interact electromagneticlu (or strong and weak; these interactions are necessary to consider) are intrinsic properties of particles. your theory needs these properties to be altered. Since these properties are intrinsic to your origninall particles, you need to change the type of particles into something that doesnt interact with anything (no such particles are ever predicted). Well since a change from particle A to B means that particle B interacts in some way with particle A, this is simply not possible."

 

 

Interesting. I must confess I do not completely understand.

 

 

1) Could you please elaborate on this?

 

 

Your second comment,

 

 

"Also matter/energy conversion methods will fail because of these uncertainties."

 

 

2) How would the conversion of matter into energy and vice-versa be related to the uncertainty principle?

 

 

Your third comment,

 

 

"Higher dimensions, if they exist at all, are only accassible at extremely high energy's; higher dimensions are most probably infinitly small and so could never be used in any kind of travel; d) If they aren't infinitly small, then our ordinary matter (actually everything except maybe the graviton) is confined to our normal 4D manifold."

 

 

 

3) If these extra dimensions are not infinitely small, why would they be useless to use for travel?

 

 

Your fourth comment,

 

 

"that 2-4 need string theory to work; b)we have no means to effectively curve space time so that it folds back onto itself (you need density's of the order of a black hole; this would ruin any spaceship ) for the ripping of spacetime: we have no idea what can cause that (we only know that it is in principle not forbidden by the laws of string theory)"

 

 

4) Could it be possible in theory to curve space-time within the confines of Earth like in Sliders?

 

 

Whitestar

[GAHD]

"Well the idea of hole teleportation seems highly inplausible to me...."

 

I would agree so, though if there were a way to alter the 'brane particles to have an extra dimension for the time involved, the limitations would not be applicable.

 

Space Warp Teleportation - I would not consider this appropriate; it leaves too much chance for the matter involved to combine as the atmosphere would then technically occupy the same space as the teleportee. If this method was modified to 'cut' the 2 pieces of space from the rest of the universe and to 'paste' them into each other's place then it might work.

[Freethinker]

I am trying to remember where I read about using quantum pairs. By "Scanning" with one of the pair which would cause it's spin to be established and this would communicate the info to the other of the pair at some distance, instantly. Thus by picking the right particle you would be picking the pair particle that would be at the correct other location.

 

Perhaps it was in Schroedinger's Kittens?

[Bo]

1) well particles can interact basicly in 4 ways. These interactions happen by interchange of virtual force particles. so e.g. the force carrier of the electromagnetic interaction (E/M) is the photon. if 2 electrons (particles that interact E/M) get close enough, they couple to 'a bunch' of virtual phtons that propagate back and forth between the 2 electrons. this coupling changes their momentum and they repel each other (in this case). The main point is that for 'anything' to happen to a particle both the initial and final state should couple to the same (virtual) particle. So your point was to make matter immune to these couplings. Well the fact that they can couple is a (not understood!) fundamental intrinsic property of the particles we know. If you want to create a particle (let's call it X) that doesn't have this property, we need to change one of our normal particles (Y) to X. This transition can only happen by the exchange of a force carrier (Z). So X needs to be able to couple to Z (otherwise nothing will happen). but now we have a contradiction: X shouldn't be able to couple to anything, yet it couples to Z! I hope this makes my point clear

2) How would the conversion of matter into energy and vice-versa be related to the uncertainty principle?

well the main reason i had in mind is the following. The uncertainty principle is not only valid for [position, momentum], but also for many other properties. one of them is: [Energy, time]. So if we cant, at an exact given moment in time convert exactly the right amount of energy. and vice versa. Since there are about 10^36 molecules in a human body, each molecule has a bunch of electrons, well simply speaking: the uncertainties would occur VERY much, so the replica would never be more then 'the avarage of the same body, over some time, within some energy interval. I wouldn't step trough a transporter like that

3) If these extra dimensions are not infinitely small, why would they be useless to use for travel?

well on second thoughts: i think i'll take that point back if the distence you want to travel is only about the length of a string, this can happen just as plausible as the infinite extra dimensions. (space needs to be very curved, like a U with the top points *almost* toching (only one 5th dim string connects them).

4) Could it be possible in theory to curve space-time within the confines of Earth like in Sliders?

i dont really understand this question... Sliders is probably a movie? (that i havent seen ). So aybe you can explain this some more?

regards, Bo

[Bo]

And to freethinker:

What you're talking about is the so called EPR-Paradox (Einstein, Podolsky, Rosen), which intuitivly violates the principle of relativity: information can't be sent over faster then light. (einstein called this 'spooky action at a distence'). This paradox was solved by the following thought: The only way to check if this really happaned, we need to travel to the other point and see what the other particle has done. This travelling cant go faster than light, so effectively no information goes faster than light, because we could only see that the information went faster then light if we ourselves went faster than light, which is impossible. Bo

[Whitestar]

Originally posted by: Boi dont really understand this question... Sliders is probably a movie? (that i havent seen ). So aybe you can explain this some more?regards, Bo

 

 

 

Sure. The show is about a group of people who journeys from one parallel universe to another. I recall seeing one episode in which they are standing outside of building and one character holds up a device which looks very similar to a tv remote control that has a series of digital numbers on it. This device tells the person when and where the next portal will open. Once all the numbers reach zero, a portal opens up and the characters leap into it and journey to their next adventure. I must admit that I am intrigued by the concept, however, there's one problem with it. The energy requirements to open a portal on Earth like in Sliders is so great, that it would be more than enough to destroy the entire planet.

 

 

1) What do you think?

 

 

well the main reason i had in mind is the following. The uncertainty principle is not only valid for [position, momentum], but also for many other properties. one of them is: [Energy, time]. So if we cant, at an exact given moment in time convert exactly the right amount of energy. and vice versa. Since there are about 10^36 molecules in a human body, each molecule has a bunch of electrons, well simply speaking: the uncertainties would occur VERY much, so the replica would never be more then 'the avarage of the same body, over some time, within some energy interval. I wouldn't step trough a transporter like that

 

 

Speaking of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, I would like to temporary discuss the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle tells us that while it is possible to measure the position and velocity with reasonable accuracy, we cannot measure both an atom's position and velocity at the same time. The reason for this is simple. For instance, to find the position of an atom, we must shine a beam of light which come in small packets, or quanta, also known as photons. The individual photons of each wavelength have an energy inversely related to their wavelength.

 

 

The greater the resolution we want, the smaller the wavelength of light we must use. But the smaller the wavelength, the larger the energy of the packets. If we bombard an atom with a high-energy photon in order to observe it, we may ascertain exactly where the atom was when the photon hit it, but the observation process itself, that is, hitting the atom with the photon will clearly transfer significant energy to the atom, thus changing its speed and direction of motion by some amount. That is the case with our current 'scanning systems'.

 

 

2) But what if we invented new scanning systems which wouldn't cause the same problem, that is, without probing particles with other particles? Specifically, a particle that has no energy at all?

 

 

3) Also, if future new physics are introduced, would the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle be broken, disproved, modified or overcomed?

 

 

well on second thoughts: i think i'll take that point back if the distence you want to travel is only about the length of a string, this can happen just as plausible as the infinite extra dimensions. (space needs to be very curved, like a U with the top points *almost* toching (only one 5th dim string connects them).

 

 

4) Do you believe extra dimensions could be the key to teleportation?

 

 

Einstein has stated in his equations that matter and energy are interconvertible. An experiment at Stanford University was accomplished at S.L.A.C. (short for Stanford Linear Accelerator Center). Michael Pidwirny, the guy who wrote it claimed that it might one day be a

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Bo

And to freethinker:

What you're talking about is the so called EPR-Paradox (Einstein, Podolsky, Rosen), which intuitivly violates the principle of relativity: information can't be sent over faster then light. (einstein called this 'spooky action at a distence'). This paradox was solved by the following thought: The only way to check if this really happaned, we need to travel to the other point and see what the other particle has done. This travelling cant go faster than light, so effectively no information goes faster than light, because we could only see that the information went faster then light if we ourselves went faster than light, which is impossible. Bo

 

There is a fallacy in this assumption. What if the recipient was already there, say, 4 lightyears away, and confirm the receoption of information instantly (*if* it were possible, obviously)? Then they would get results instantly. We won't know whether this is possible yet, even though current theory says it isn't.

 

Tormod

[Uncle Martin]

That's an interesting thought Tormod,

 

If you were to take one particle to Mars, or anywhere for that matter, I could reverse the spin of the particle here and you would receive that information instantly. Morse code may be able to make a comeback. Seems odd that Einstein didn't see this. Is what we're talking about here the same as entanglement?

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Uncle Martin

That's an interesting thought Tormod,

 

If you were to take one particle to Mars, or anywhere for that matter, I could reverse the spin of the particle here and you would receive that information instantly. Morse code may be able to make a comeback. Seems odd that Einstein didn't see this. Is what we're talking about here the same as entanglement?

 

Oh, Einstein saw it all right. He simply blatantly denied that it was possible. Yes, it is entanglement - and it lies at the heart of the ravine between Einstein and quantum physicists...

 

Tormod

[lindagarrette]

Whitestar, You said: "The question is, would the person survive the procedure, or would the individual cease to exist and be replaced with a replica, who was literally born into existence once the energy was reconverted back into matter with the information? In my view, when your body is destroy, you die. End of story. What comes out of the teleporter is an exact copy, with all your memories etc, and no knowledge that it isn't you, but it isn't. No one would ever notice the problem, so it only affects you when it happens. Unless, if you believe in souls, there are "conservation of souls" problems to deal with - does the same soul follow the body around? While in an energy state, there is no consciousness, no heart to beat, hence the person who first underwent this form of teleportation has cease to exist and replaced with a replica."

 

The replica would have all the characteristics of the original person whether the original ceased to exist or not. (Except for the "soul" issue which is a metaphysical concept.) There is no reason the original would not remain in tact. Pandora