Chinese Knowledge Inspired Leonardo da Vinci and Galileo? Yes, says, Menzies.

[maikeru]

Columbus debunker sets sights on Leonardo da Vinci | U.S. | Reuters

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Leonardo da Vinci's drawings of machines are uncannily similar to Chinese originals and were undoubtedly derived from them, a British amateur historian says in a newly-published book.

 

Gavin Menzies sparked headlines across the globe in 2002 with the claim that Chinese sailors reached America 70 years before Christopher Columbus.

 

Now he says a Chinese fleet brought encyclopedias of technology undiscovered by the West to Italy in 1434, laying the foundation for the engineering marvels such as flying machines later drawn by Italian polymath Leonardo.

 

"Everything known to the Chinese by the year 1430 was brought to Venice," said Menzies, a retired Royal Navy submarine commander, in an interview at his north London home....

 

To be honest, this seems like rubbish to me. I read Gavin Menzies's earlier work:

 

Amazon.com: 1421: The Year China Discovered America (P.S.): Gavin Menzies: Books http://www.amazon.com/1421-Year-China-Discovered-America/dp/0061564893/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217406248&sr=1-2

 

and was not impressed by his historical "evidence" or reasoning. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts to add on this or if you have read the new book:

 

Amazon.com: 1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and Ignited the Renaissance: Gavin Menzies: Books http://www.amazon.com/1434-Magnificent-Chinese-Ignited-Renaissance/dp/0061492175/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217406248&sr=1-1

 

While I admire the consideration and appreciation of ancient China, her accomplishments, and her culture, I don't think using the "China did it first" card to try to overturn every significant "European" discovery is going to get anywhere in serious historical and archaeological scholarship. Menzies is an admirer of Zheng He, the eunuch admiral who led a famed fleet of Ming exploratory ships to several places across the globe:

 

Zheng He - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

When Ming China stopped these explorations and destroyed the ships, it probably opened the way for the Spanish and Portuguese in the Far East, and history as we know it. It makes one wonder what if... (But I don't mean "what if" according to Menzies's version of events.)

[Moontanman]

Columbus debunker sets sights on Leonardo da Vinci | U.S. | Reuters

 

 

 

To be honest, this seems like rubbish to me. I read Gavin Menzies's earlier work:

 

Amazon.com: 1421: The Year China Discovered America (P.S.): Gavin Menzies: Books

 

and was not impressed by his historical "evidence" or reasoning. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts to add on this or if you have read the new book:

 

Amazon.com: 1434: The Year a Magnificent Chinese Fleet Sailed to Italy and Ignited the Renaissance: Gavin Menzies: Books

 

While I admire the consideration and appreciation of ancient China, her accomplishments, and her culture, I don't think using the "China did it first" card to try to overturn every significant "European" discovery is going to get anywhere in serious historical and archaeological scholarship. Menzies is an admirer of Zheng He, the eunuch admiral who led a famed fleet of Ming exploratory ships to several places across the globe:

 

Zheng He - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

When Ming China stopped these explorations and destroyed the ships, it probably opened the way for the Spanish and Portuguese in the Far East, and history as we know it. It makes one wonder what if... (But I don't mean "what if" according to Menzies's version of events.)

 

Is this guy saying a Chinese fleet went to Italy? I think there can be no doubt that if a Chinese fleet had contacted Europe before Europe sent fleets out in the wide world history would have been changed.

[maikeru]

In a nutshell, yes. I find Menzies's version of world history (and Sinocentric world history) to be suspect.

[Tormod]

I call BS. Norwegians discovered America. And there were people there already.

[nutronjon]

I think there is another way to explore this question. I came to the history thread to ask a question. Before there was a sea routes between China and Europe, there was a land route, and cultured mover from east to west, not the west to the east. Europe was primitive compared to the older civilizations.

 

Baghdad was the gateway between the east and west since early times, with trade occuring before the European countries we know today were established. That is well before Leonardo's time. The following is from Wikipedia:

 

The route enabled people to transport trade goods, especially luxuries such as silk, satins, musk, rubies, diamonds, pearls and rhubarb[2] from different parts of the country in China, India, and Asia Minor to the Mediterranean, extending over 8,000 km (5,000 miles). Trade on the Silk Road was a significant factor in the development of the great civilizations of China, Egypt, Persia, Arabia, India, Rome, and Byzantium and helped to lay the foundations for the modern world in several respects. Although the term, the Silk Road, implies a continuous journey, very few travelers traveled the route from end to end. For the most part, goods were transported by a series of agents on varying routes and trade took place in the bustling mercantile markets of the oasis towns.[2]

 

The Central Asian part of the trade route was initiated around 114 BC by the Han Dynasty[3] largely through the missions and explorations of Zhang Qian[4] although earlier trade across the continents had already existed. In the late Middle Ages, use of the Silk Road declined as sea trade increased.[5]

 

-Silk Road

[nutronjon]

May be we should expand our view of the world a little? The Muslims had preserved what ancient civilizations had achieved and expanded upon it. Because the east and west did have contact, I don't know if we can be sure what came from China and what did not?

 

Muslim horologists had constructed precise time-keeping devices, that were fully auotmatic and weight-driven. Designs and illustrations of epi-cyclic and segmented gears were provided. Ibn-e-Farnas of Spain was a skilled inventer in this regard.

 

 

Galileo's pendulum? Did Galileo invent the pendulum as he was standing under a swinging chendelier in a church? No, in fact it was Ibn Yunus Al-Misri who had invented the device in the 10th century and Muslims later on, used it in their clocks.

 

 

Paper was a Chinese invention. Muslims mediated this Chinese skill to Europe. With the advent of paper-making in Islam, dawned a new revolution worldwide. Muslim had learnt this art from Chinese prisoners of war in 751 A.D.. From Samarkand, the craftsmanship spread to Baghdad, Damascus, Tiberias, Tripoli and Fez. There were floating paper mills in Jativa near Valencia, Spain. The first factory of this sort was established in Europe in Fabriano (Italy) in 1261 A.D.. After its instatement, Europe had to wait for another century before Nuremberg (Germany) could boast of another paper manufacturing center. Moreover, Muslims were the first time, used cotton to make paper, whereas China had been using silk throughout. This enabled Europe to use cotton and advance themselves by leaps and bounds, because silk was very rarely found outside China and India.

 

 

Newton and Haitham Without undermining Newton’s unparalleled contributions to human knowledge, many of his ideas were not the first of their kind and they had their precedents in the Muslim world. Ibn-alHaitham showed how the eye works (although one of his own eyes was bulged out by the Egyptian ruler, Al-Hakim). He showed that sight is possible because of light rays being reflected from the object, rather than rays emanating from the eye, as Greek science would have believed. Haitham also worked on the Fermat’s principle of least distance of propagation of light. Moreover, he had anticipated inertia, about 600 years before Netwon. It is unjust to rule out his name in the history of civilisation. Haitham also investigated the theory of diffraction and explained how rainbows ere formed, although Newton, first explained the coloration of rainbows. It is an open question, if Newton studied haitham.s monumental "Kitab-al-Manazir". As early as the 11th century, Haitham, had proposed to Al-Hakim the construction of a dam on the River Nile. Today, the magnificent Aswan, stands not quite far from the site he had proposed.

Muslim Contribution to Human Civilisation

[Michaelangelica]

So did China invent almost everything?

Gunpowder, moveable type, compass, plant grafting, paper the wheel barrow (my favourite)even perfumed toilet paper

The astonishing Dr Joseph Needham - Part 1 of 3

I just listened to this? or something similar- but can't find the audio which was tacked on the end of the Boyer Lectures part 1.

transcript is here

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2009/2456578.htm

In the case of Europe, the effects of Chinese inventions and artefacts were often far more profound than they were in China itself.

Ironically it was these same technologies, transformed by the scientific and industrial revolution, that were to rebound on China during the nineteenth century when the guns and cultural values of European imperialism were to bring an end to the cultural sovereignty of the Chinese empire, an empire that had maintained itself for over 2,000 years.

These days everybody knows that the Chinese invented practically everything hundreds of years ago.

What people don't realise is that this understanding is so new; in the early 1950s, nobody, not even those in China were aware of this amazing fact.

Then Dr Joseph Needham of Cambridge embarked on an exploration of China and the beginning of his massive work Science and Civilisation in China and in 2008 Simon Winchester's book Bomb, Book and Compass reminded the world of this achievement. Today in part 1 we talk to Simon Winchester but also hear once more the programs made in the 1970s with Needham himself.

The astonishing Dr Joseph Needham - Part 1 of 3 - Science Show - 3 January 2008

 

The Man Who Loved China (Bomb, Book and Compass) - Simon Winchester

 

Bomb, Book and Compass book review

 

Weapons in Ancient China

Saturday 22 November 2003

 

Summary

 

On a visit to China, Branwen Morgan visited the terracotta warriors and was intrigued to find that some of the ancient weapons appeared to be chrome plated.

The Science Show: 22 November* 2003* - Weapons in Ancient China

[belovelife]

wasn't in leonardos time a huge return of phylosophy books like socrates an plato and stuff that were burned throughout europe in the crusades

and in the mid 1400's people from china brought them back since they had copies from the great library of alexandria

[arkain101]

I have no clue but I love history... It makes me want to go back and see the events of those days..!!!

[Michaelangelica]

I have no clue but I love history... It makes me want to go back and see the events of those days..!!!

Yes, I don't want a TARDIS I need a TARDIS.

What we pass off as history is filtered though hundreds of years and our own 20th century world view. I doubt if we can really understand the past in the same way as someone living at that time and place could.

Then again if you are a mud poor peasant with a 30 year life span you may not notice what the kings and queens were doing.

We are also feed so much Bull Shite by governments. It is criminal that some WW2 documents are still classified.

[CraigD]

wasn't in leonardos time a huge return of phylosophy books like socrates an plato and stuff that were burned throughout europe in the crusades

and in the mid 1400's people from china brought them back since they had copies from the great library of alexandria

I think you’re referring to the destruction of the Library of Alexandria.

 

This happened about 1000 years before Leonardo’s time and the Renaissance in general (about 1450-1750 AD). Much of and some of the most important activity of the Renaissance involved the spread of Latin as a “universal scholarly language”, the discovery of documents in Latin, Greek, Arabic, and other classical languages, and often, their translation into Latin. This was a period of voracious acquisition of knowledge, some of it about China, but to the best of my knowledge, classical documents found in China didn’t play a significant part in it.

 

Works such as those by Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, were so popular in their time (about 400-300 BC) that they were widely copied and distributed, making them fairly “library burning-proof”. To this day, hardest hit when museums and libraries are destroyed are not ancient and modern “bestsellers”, but obscure stuff consisting of a single or a few copies. One can argue that very obscure works are made only a little more obscure by their destruction, but still the loss of such works means the possible loss of some obscure but vital connecting, collaborating, or contradicting data with the potential to greatly expand and improve our understanding of history.

 

Burning libraries is bad. :hyper:

[belovelife]

i read about it in a book called leonardo davinci

 

alexandria got burned twice

but the books were sought after and burned in the dark ages and the years preceeding them

i believe coating staues with gold and electricity was done before the library burnt down

but i'm not sure

there were random refrences to these ideas though

 

 

[

fire + books = bad

books - fire = good

]

i think there is a calculation in here somewhere

[carlton-temple]

I think the average "academic" historian lacks the practical experience of how rapidly ships and horses ect, could cover great distances and so finds it difficult to appreciate how quickly information could be passed from here to there. For example, a small sailing yacht can get from England to America in a couple of months. A Brixam fishing boat with a good wind could make 18 miles /hour. One of Napoleons generals made the round trip by post coach back and forth from Paris to Rome in a long weekend. In the museum in Groningen (Holland), there are many log-bocks from Dutch barges that rounded the Horn without compasses as they were to expensive. There are it appears possible indications that the Phoneticians visited Australia on a regular basis, the Viking boats could make Scottland in 36 hours and so on. All of which shows that through out history much more intercommunication has existed than is recorded. As a retired wooden ship builder the techniques "still" used to assemble wooden ships are lost in the mists of time, the trunel, a sort of wooden nail, easy to make may be as old as mankind. Two experienced men can build a 7metre boat in a week in split oak! To say that a "technique" or area of "knowledge" remained long isolated in any one place for long is a thus a little exaggerated. One only has to read Herodotus, to see how quickly and far he could travel. Take the Harappas peoples, sailing back and forth to Asia could of been a regular affair, certainly their distinctive pottery has turned up all over the place.

[Michaelangelica]

Maybe, but you had to stay the night at somewhere friendly from 300-1,000 AD & that was not that easy.

 

One of the reasons the Jewish people got into commerce and international trade as they could move from one settlement to another and have a common language and culture.

 

I think the Renaissance happened because of the weakening of Catholic Church power,(printing of the bible helped) the plague making labour scarce and expensive, and the Medicis' discovering money, banking, money lending (previously prohibited by the church) and international trade. Latin was a "world" language from about 200BC at least.

The Arab numerical system also helped. Try adding 10% interest to IX +IV+ XXIV=??

 

Certainly the rescue and translation of many Greek books by the Arabs helped too; as did their prostelysing of the Muslim Religion; which led to Arab expansion along north Africa into Spain; where Europeans again made contact with these early scientifc /mathamatical texts.

 

Printing & Chinese paper helped make the texts more readilly afordable and available too.

(Some century the 14th!

Barbara Trucman (sp?)has an interesting, very readable, book on it )

[Ash]

I feel that Gavin is bang on.  When I studied art history, there was a massive jump, into the renaissance, where are was transformed from flat 2 dimensions, to elaborate and dramatic art full of depth.  I often wondered then what caused this massive shift.  When I read Gavin's book and he discussed how the Chinese fleet sailed into an Italian port to spark the Renaissance, it all fell into place. Especially when you look at Eastern art before this time.   
  The Chinese sailed with historical documents, and they were told to distribute this Chinese technology, art, and knowledge to the word to educate them, and share it on.  The Chinese saw the west as very underdeveloped in comparison to their own.  Their ships in port dwarfed everything th Europeans had.
  Think on this,  if these books indeed were transferred at port, into who's hands would the fall into?  Lords, and high ranking Merchants.  They were in Chinese, and unreadable, they would need to no only be interpreted but redrawn, and represented in Italian.  Who would you have do this?  High level artists, and educated people.  one? or many?  You would trust it to one. Da Vinci.  Its unimaginable, that a single person could invent so many things, and discover so many things, in one lifetime,  in all the genres of knowledge and skill that Da Vinci is claimed to have done. Each, would take not only one lifetime to develop, but generations. 
It's actually obvious.  and the mystery of how Da Vinci is the only person in all of history to master so many disciplines has been solved. 
  In a Historical context, it makes perfect sense, that he had access to the vast Chinese knowledge of several thousands years, due to his privileged position. 
As a student to not only history, but history of art as well, this is the clear winner.  Gavin is absolutely correct.