What's Russia's game plan?

[alexander]

Would they really nuke Poland?

Payback time? Though they did get their butts kicked real bad, last time Polland sent a bunch of knights into the country, to overthrow knyaz Alexander (probably heard of Alexander Nevsky, you would have if you read any early Russian history, well mid 1200ds)

[Michaelangelica]

People the world over have always been more impressed by the power of our example than by the example of our power,

Nice turn of phrase Buffy

 

Thanks Alexander for the history.

Didn't Catherine the Great really do a lot to bring Russia into the modern world?

I read her biography. That and Stalingrad are the only two books I have read on Russia

Was she before or after Peter?

 

I think Stalingrad explains a lot about Russia. It is a mos terrifying book. You cannot believe the privations Russians (and Germans) went though)

 

Churchill knew that after WW2 Russia would appropriate buffer states which became USSR. This would stop any future invasions of the "Mother Country"

That's why Churchill wanted the Yanks to invade via Greece rather than Italy. But he lost that fight.

Secretly arming the Greek partisans didn't help him a lot either. Different factions just seemed to shoot each other.

 

The other interesting thing about USSR is that the Yanks had virtually no reasonable intelligence on Russia in 1945. So the USA (was it "Wild Bill" Donovan?) just appropriated the German Secret Service. (Russian Dept.)

I am positive that a big part of the reasons for the long Cold War after WW2was the paranoia of the new German, now CIA agents , working in USA.

Read Stalingrad and you will see how bloody terrified the Germans were of the Russians.

 

It is interesting that before WW2 the USA were appalled by the whole 'spy and spying thing'. In British terms they thought it "Just wasn't Cricket". It was neither proper or polite. Many in high office, in politics and the forces, thought it "grubby" and not the way one should conduct a war.

The appropriated German Intelligence staff and SS soon changed USA attitudes.

Sadly, as a result, since WW2 we now have a string of CIA intervention in S. America and many other places-often illegal . Now we have graduated to the quintessence of disregard for other humans in Guantanomo Bay, Abu Grahib etc, etc etc,

The Nazis really were good teachers. :singer:

[Buffy]

Nice turn of phrase Buffy

Yes, indeed! Look it up! And while you're at it, read the rest of the speech too!

 

It is a very, very conservative country rather it is filled with very conservative people.

Yep. And what you have to realize is that Putin's "re-Sovietization" of Russia is *very popular* mostly because its perceived as taking the country back to a "more stable" time (conservatives don't remember the bad part of the past, just the good parts, and that's why they don't want change...true not just in Russia, but everywhere).

 

I think the important thing to remember though is that this trend is not one of renewed Imperialism--indeed, I think the Russian public would not support it--but when it's "wars of liberation," where in this case Georgia was in essence stifling the self-determination of South Ossetia, its really easy to support. And of course the long-running conflict in Chechnya is all about fighting Terrorism.

 

Liberation? Fighting Terror? What is there that Bush could possibly disagree with?

 

But Russia is not the Soviet Union, and in spite of seeming roll-backs, Putin can't do whatever he wants without political cover like this. Stop giving him political cover, and it will be much harder for him to justify to the Russian people and the rest of the world what he's doing. Even now, he's smart enough to know that he can't just "invade Georgia": he can get away with "providing protection" to South Ossetia and maybe Abkhazia, but he can't just take it over or he'd lose the high moral ground of "not doing what the US has done in Iraq."

 

The campaign generated so much heat it increased global warming, :singer:

Buffy

[paigetheoracle]

George Bush is the fly in the ointment here. I'm not saying Putin is anymore wonderful than Saddam Hussein was (murdering a soviet dissident in the UK for one thing) but GW is putting him under pressure with the Polish shield idea and support in Georgia. Putin and George are both equally paranoid, pushing Russia back into heavy handed communism and turning America into a fifties communist state, through homeland (mother Russia!) security measures and the other mentioned points: This is guy is a child and somebody should take his toys away (The USA) before he breaks them. Look at what Cesar Millan says about mad dogs and the need for discipline - without barriers they turn into petty tyrants; in other words they should both retreat back into their own kennels and sort them out, rather than go sticking their noses into other countries businesses: Back off and cool down is the message tht needs to be sent (Putin threatened Poland with nukes because he felt threatened by American intervention).

 

As for China - trade with the West is giving it a new lease of life and poverty struck Russia should learn from this (Too many gangsters spoil the broth as America and prohibition proved). Look at the Olympic games. China's treatment of dissidents is probably worse than Russia's but they showed that they could pull together as a nation and get on with it, which Russia in its present condition couldn't.

[alexander]

Didn't Catherine the Great really do a lot to bring Russia into the modern world?

I read her biography. That and Stalingrad are the only two books I have read on Russia

Was she before or after Peter?

Close, but no game :phones:

Catherine (assuming you mean Catherine II) came after Peter, while she did do a fair amout to closen Russia to Europe, yes closen is a word i just made up, but its when one side builds up to an extent that the other side would want to be closer to them be the new "it".

 

Peter, however, did a whole lot more with this, there is a good book out there on Peter, and i have posted a couple of papers i've written on the topic here :cheer:

 

German soldiers respected russian soldiers a lot, for the life of them, they could not understand, how, people that are not trained, and going towards their certain deaths, could prove to be so resillient, how russian soldier, being sent out to war with no weapons, ammo, rations, clothes nor mode of transportation, could be an effective fighting machine, as my great grandmother used to say; your great grandfather, returned from the Russo-Finish war, spent about 6 months at home, and got a telegram, that said something along the lines of:

"You are required to defend the motherland, please pack up and head in the direction of the front. On your way there, you should be able to pick up some weapons and ammo. For the motherland!"

 

gonna run home, more, later :)

[Michaelangelica]

People the world over have always been more impressed by the power of our example than by the example of our power,

Nice speech Buffy

Are you STILL Republican???

Some of the problems Clinton mentions are not unique to USA

Middle class and low-income Americans are hurting, with incomes declining; job losses, poverty and inequality rising; mortgage foreclosures and credit card debt increasing; health care coverage disappearing; and a big spike in the cost of food, utilities, and gasoline.

Perhaps more due to globalisation and "corporatisation"?

Our last conservative government was leading us down the same path. Hopefully Rudd will turn things around. Six months in and it is still early days but the noises are promising. Certainly the last Oz Government was Evil (I just saw the play/musical "Keating" last night.- a potted musical history of Australia over the last 20 years)

 

EDIT

I just sent the Clinton Quote to a less idealistic, more cynical (lawyer friend) with a link to the speech.

He came back immediately with

And so what do we learn from his example? Move over Monica

:phones:

[paigetheoracle]

Dictators are bad news for any country (Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe, Stalin etc). Even Rudi Giulliani who started off well became one I understand.

 

What every country needs is independent individuals, working for their own and everyone else's benefit, not slaves to the will of one man. Dictators ruin their own economy by suppressing the needs of their own people for creative expression as Mugabe is doing with Zimbabwe, GW is doing with America and presumably Putin is doing with Russia but we don't get much news out of there to be sure. It is distrust of the people (In God we trust -phoey!) and their suppression for personal gain (wealth/ power/ prestige) as opposed to free expression. Saddam was bad news for Iraq but outside interference by The West has only made the situation was by destabilizing the region. Whatever 'coat' dictators wear (democrat, communist, straightforward tyrant), they are opportunistic gangsters, stirring up trouble for their own benefit. Peace is good for a country, war never is - whether it is external conflict or internal revolution. As Gandhi said 'What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, the homeless - whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?' or Churchill much more simply "Jaw,jaw,jaw is better than war,war,war". Idealism hides a multitude of sins (lies) as Iago would be the first to point out, if he wasn't so guilty of such a crime himself - hypocrites rule but only if you don't know it.:singer:

[alexander]

Are you STILL Republican???

i vote for Buffy's new party... buffublican :naughty:

 

Dictators ruin their own economy

Putin's a bad example, the economy has thrived under him, debts are being paid, and there is more and more uninvested money circulating in Russia...

 

heavy handed communism

you clearly need to read up on Russia, a bit...

Russia never had communism, because communism eliminates the need for a government, and Russia was always governed. what you are referring to is Marxism-Lenninism, which is closer to an advanced form of socialism then communism... Putin was also not pushing for socialism, he called it democracy, but since Democracy does not fit in every situation, such as Russia, it was a russified form of that.

 

But let me expand on that.

 

The western world was founded on principals of democracy, though it is hardly that today, american people have a deep burning desire to spread democracy everywhere in the world, whatever millitary action it may take, shoving democracy up the ...... well you know where that thought was going, let's make this one at least PG 18. Problem is, americracy, or americanized version of democracy, is sometimes not a very good fit for a country, any given country, and what government has seemed to work out over the past, most of the time, very long history of the nation, is what is best suited for that country, and by americans may or may not be considered the right choice. And don't argue about americracy, the government has long not stood for the people, they have long represented their own opinions. It has been long since the people decided who gets elected, the democracy has been long transformed, thus don't deny it, simply follow the thought.

But this gets me to what Buffy had said, as well as paig, Russia is not a democratic country, democracy would simply not work in Russia; main reason for that is what russian people want to do, and have done to them. Russian people have always had election processes, even in the old times it was who people chose to rule their city-state, not who was appointed to the office by the tzar. Russian people say they want democracy, what they really want is to be able to choose who governs them, and sometimes get to vote on issues that may seem big to them, but in all reality aren't. At that point, tell them what to do, and as long as there is faith in the person who is governing, they will do as they believe is the best for the country. In essence, what Russia needs is a russified version of americracy, take 7 parts americracy, and dilute it with 3 parts of sovietism, with one party in the house, and less bureaucracy in the gov-t branches, and more gov-t control over businesses, and you know what, Putin has established a pretty darn good model for the people, because in 6 years, he has gotten a country out of an almost critical hole, that was about to collapse onto itself, into what now is a nation that is beginning to prosper and establish its global role, that it once had, and that is why he is still in control. Also call Koba (Joseph Dzhugashvilli) what you want, but there aren't that many leaders that can in so few years turn a country on the brink of poverty after war, into a prospering fully industrialized cold war machine... (i know at what price, but case and point remains)

[Michaelangelica]

paigetheoracle

Mostly I would agree but there have been a few notable exceptions recently and I am sure you would find some benign Royalties/dictatorships in history.

I, for example ,would make an excellent dictator. So much more efficient than democracy :naughty:

The notable one in my patch is lee Kung Lew (sp?) in Singapore and the now the Singapore government. Singapore would have twice as many rules that would put you in jail than Russia.

Perhaps also the Dali Lama and the Ghandi family in India.?

 

The western world was founded on principals of democracy,

Was it?

I would have thought it would have taken the Brits close to 1,000 years to develop parliamentary democracy.

They have now transplanted it to places like almost-stone age New Guinea where it is having trouble surviving.

Is Spain democratic? Well, maybe, since 1978.

 

I think the USA was founded on ideas of religions freedom. This slowly developed into other freedoms for its peoples (When did slavery stop? or are the wetbacks keeping the tradition alive?)

Twenty years ago, when I travelled in Southern USA, many told me that the "USA should NUKE USSR" because it was "ungodly" not because it was communist- as you rightly point out a word often used incorrectly.

'Pure' communism has more affinity with the teachings of Jesus Christ than anything else.

Of course, in real life, both philosophies become corporations and the message is buggered.

The Israeli Kibbutz was probably the closest practical, real thing we have ever seen to communism.

[paigetheoracle]

i vote for Buffy's new party... buffublican :)

 

 

Putin's a bad example, the economy has thrived under him, debts are being paid, and there is more and more uninvested money circulating in Russia...

 

 

you clearly need to read up on Russia, a bit...

Russia never had communism, because communism eliminates the need for a government, and Russia was always governed. what you are referring to is Marxism-Lenninism, which is closer to an advanced form of socialism then communism... Putin was also not pushing for socialism, he called it democracy, but since Democracy does not fit in every situation, such as Russia, it was a russified form of that.

 

But let me expand on that.

 

The western world was founded on principals of democracy, though it is hardly that today, american people have a deep burning desire to spread democracy everywhere in the world, whatever millitary action it may take, shoving democracy up the ...... well you know where that thought was going, let's make this one at least PG 18. Problem is, americracy, or americanized version of democracy, is sometimes not a very good fit for a country, any given country, and what government has seemed to work out over the past, most of the time, very long history of the nation, is what is best suited for that country, and by americans may or may not be considered the right choice. And don't argue about americracy, the government has long not stood for the people, they have long represented their own opinions. It has been long since the people decided who gets elected, the democracy has been long transformed, thus don't deny it, simply follow the thought.

But this gets me to what Buffy had said, as well as paig, Russia is not a democratic country, democracy would simply not work in Russia; main reason for that is what russian people want to do, and have done to them. Russian people have always had election processes, even in the old times it was who people chose to rule their city-state, not who was appointed to the office by the tzar. Russian people say they want democracy, what they really want is to be able to choose who governs them, and sometimes get to vote on issues that may seem big to them, but in all reality aren't. At that point, tell them what to do, and as long as there is faith in the person who is governing, they will do as they believe is the best for the country. In essence, what Russia needs is a russified version of americracy, take 7 parts americracy, and dilute it with 3 parts of sovietism, with one party in the house, and less bureaucracy in the gov-t branches, and more gov-t control over businesses, and you know what, Putin has established a pretty darn good model for the people, because in 6 years, he has gotten a country out of an almost critical hole, that was about to collapse onto itself, into what now is a nation that is beginning to prosper and establish its global role, that it once had, and that is why he is still in control. Also call Koba (Joseph Dzhugashvilli) what you want, but there aren't that many leaders that can in so few years turn a country on the brink of poverty after war, into a prospering fully industrialized cold war machine... (i know at what price, but case and point remains)

 

As I said, I don't know much about Putin's rule - sounds more like he is what they call a 'benign dictator' as was Rudi Giulliani with New York. As for what you say about Stalin, he pushed the country into what it became and China seems to be doing the same, whereas Britain took its time becoming industrialized as you'd expect, being first and having to experiment as it grew.

 

As for what America 'is' and what Russia 'was' supposed to be, no matter what the name of the branch, it is the fruit of the tree that shows whether it is growing or shrinking in prosperity, compared to how it was as well as other countries (Linear time, upwards or horizontally, sideways): Every country goes through boom and bust as part of its history as does every empire but post war socialist countries like Russia, are not working together as a unit in the same way China is, so I personally believe it is showing the way forward, not Russia.

 

As for what you say about Russians voting for who rules their city states - sounds like America to me too! (Not a real country either, unlike European countries in the West or possibly other nations - maybe it's the size of the areas controlled?

[paigetheoracle]

paigetheoracle

Mostly I would agree but there have been a few notable exceptions recently and I am sure you would find some benign Royalties/dictatorships in history.

I, for example ,would make an excellent dictator. So much more efficient than democracy :)

The notable one in my patch is lee Kung Lew (sp?) in Singapore and the now the Singapore government. Singapore would have twice as many rules that would put you in jail than Russia.

Perhaps also the Dali Lama and the Ghandi family in India.?

 

 

Was it?

I would have thought it would have taken the Brits close to 1,000 years to develop parliamentary democracy.

They have now transplanted it to places like almost-stone age New Guinea where it is having trouble surviving.

Is Spain democratic? Well, maybe, since 1978.

 

I think the USA was founded on ideas of religions freedom. This slowly developed into other freedoms for its peoples (When did slavery stop? or are the wetbacks keeping the tradition alive?)

Twenty years ago, when I travelled in Southern USA, many told me that the "USA should NUKE USSR" because it was "ungodly" not because it was communist- as you rightly point out a word often used incorrectly.

'Pure' communism has more affinity with the teachings of Jesus Christ than anything else.

Of course, in real life, both philosophies become corporations and the message is buggered.

The Israeli Kibbutz was probably the closest practical, real thing we have ever seen to communism.

 

I do so agree - it is really not one political format against another but religion versus greed (true politics). The American Indians, communism as originally dreamed up and Christianity, plus Gnosticism before it - all perverted by negativity and lust for personal power (Wolves in sheeps clothing versus genuine sheepish people, who just want to get on with their lives, without 'outside inter-fear-ence' (leave 'well' alone - Don't fix it if it isn't broken)

[alexander]

Singapore would have twice as many rules that would put you in jail than Russia.

You silly, rules don't put you in jail in Russia, people that don't like you do. For every two criminals convicted for a fair reason, one is convicted because there were no other people to convict, even though they didn't do it, and the detective is wrong, and one more is convicted because it is either beneficial to someone else, who has higher ties, or because you were in a wrong place blocking something or someone, or just because they don't like you, or you or the other guy made a mistake, but once again, have high ranking friends... And Russian jails are hard to rival in the severity of life in them, and survivalness... Though no other country beats US in the amount of criminals incarcerated per capita.

 

I think the USA was founded on ideas of religions freedom.

Certainly not without that, but it still fits under the principals of democracy, some democratic principals, not all of them though, and some do include "freedom" of religion, though that freedom has been long gone, there is freedom of religion, there is still little freedom from religion... and we all have Truman to thank for that... and Eisenhower too...

 

As for what you say about Russians voting for who rules their city states

you realize that Russia united in like 1500ds, right, when the notion of city-state was gone, and tzars assumed ultimate control... by 1530s, Ivan's time, if you did not follow tzar's word, in your city, you better kill yourself, it would be less painful... And no, the voting system in city-states was not what US will later use, people assembled on a square, and disputed who they wanted to rule, then the Boyars and influential men voted, and decided who rules...

 

he pushed the country into what it became

What, a prospering nation with a 6.1% annual economic growth, annual growth in export of, grain, metallurgy, machinery, chemical products; building first factories, and getting production process prices down so much that it cost 1/2 as much to make weapons in 1944, as it did in 1941, centralizing farming, building transportation systems, investing heavily into science, education and research centers... Don't believe people that never studied history, just because they say that "communism" ruined Russia, it does not mean that such is the case, think for yourself, don't let others tell you what you should think...

 

As I said, I don't know much about Putin's rule - sounds more like he is what they call a 'benign dictator' as was Rudi Giulliani with New York.

Think of him now more as of Cheney, that smart guy behind the scenes that is the true puppeteer... well sort of...

[Michaelangelica]

Putin smells a US rat in Georgia crisis

 

Clifford Levy in Moscow

August 30, 2008

Page 1 of 2 | Single page

Other related coverage

 

* Putin blames US for war

* Russia recognises rebel regions as independent

* West increases pressure on Russia

* Russian troop pull-back

* Fears grow of a new Cold War

 

 

AS RUSSIA struggled to rally international support for its military action in Georgia, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has lashed out at the US, contending that the White House may have orchestrated the conflict to benefit one of the candidates in the presidential election.

Putin smells a US rat in Georgia crisis - World - smh.com.au

Crimean peninsula could be the next South Ossetia

 

By Askold Krushelnycky in Sevastopol, Ukraine

Thursday, 28 August 2008

Related Articles

 

* Georgians stuck in limbo begin to lash out at Saakashvili

* Russia isolated as allies withhold support

* EU considering Russia sanctions

* Joint statement 'deplores' Russian foreign policy

* The West pledges its support for Ukraine - up to a point

* Adrian Hamilton: We need an old approach for the new global politics

* Leading article: Both sides should cool the Cold War rhetoric

 

 

 

 

Ukraine's Crimean peninsula, home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet, could be the next flashpoint in the new Cold War. And any violent disturbance in Crimea could provide the political seismic shock to split Ukraine itself along its existing fault lines of ethnicity, language and religion.

 

The Crimean peninsula is the only part of Ukraine where ethnic Russians are in a majority. Many of them are deeply resentful about being part of Ukraine and openly call for annexation by Russia. Moscow has fostered pro-annexation groups for years.

Crimean peninsula could be the next South Ossetia - Europe, World - The Independent

[paigetheoracle]

You silly, rules don't put you in jail in Russia, people that don't like you do. For every two criminals convicted for a fair reason, one is convicted because there were no other people to convict, even though they didn't do it, and the detective is wrong, and one more is convicted because it is either beneficial to someone else, who has higher ties, or because you were in a wrong place blocking something or someone, or just because they don't like you, or you or the other guy made a mistake, but once again, have high ranking friends... And Russian jails are hard to rival in the severity of life in them, and survivalness... Though no other country beats US in the amount of criminals incarcerated per capita.

 

 

Certainly not without that, but it still fits under the principals of democracy, some democratic principals, not all of them though, and some do include "freedom" of religion, though that freedom has been long gone, there is freedom of religion, there is still little freedom from religion... and we all have Truman to thank for that... and Eisenhower too...

 

 

you realize that Russia united in like 1500ds, right, when the notion of city-state was gone, and tzars assumed ultimate control... by 1530s, Ivan's time, if you did not follow tzar's word, in your city, you better kill yourself, it would be less painful... And no, the voting system in city-states was not what US will later use, people assembled on a square, and disputed who they wanted to rule, then the Boyars and influential men voted, and decided who rules...

 

 

What, a prospering nation with a 6.1% annual economic growth, annual growth in export of, grain, metallurgy, machinery, chemical products; building first factories, and getting production process prices down so much that it cost 1/2 as much to make weapons in 1944, as it did in 1941, centralizing farming, building transportation systems, investing heavily into science, education and research centers... Don't believe people that never studied history, just because they say that "communism" ruined Russia, it does not mean that such is the case, think for yourself, don't let others tell you what you should think...

 

 

Think of him now more as of Cheney, that smart guy behind the scenes that is the true puppeteer... well sort of...

 

"History is Bunk" Henry Ford. The winner decides the story told. This is the basis of ethics (people lie), physical evidence in court cases and philosophy (doubt everything). People live, people die - that is the only thing you can be sure of - in between is chaos, confusion and outright lies. I know what my personal history is but those that interfaced with it may have differing opinions as to what happened and why (motives: see ethics).

[alexander]

Sorry to stir this up yet again, but i figured i shall now post my final thoughts on this conflict.

 

Yes this means that after countless hours of reviewing all kinds of sources of information i have at last formed an opinion, more or less.

 

Let's start at the start, and i don't mean what was covered by the press in the world, but the start at the beginning, time - a couple of days prior to Georgian (G) involvement in South Osetiya (SO), and t - (a couple of days + 2) to Russian ® involvement in the G/SO conflict.

 

SO is a former republic of R, after their split, they held their own elections, had their own politics and partners, and like many tiny nations, did not really have a military, and mainly relied on internal police force and agencies to handle the situations. Now, about 80-90% of SO residents have some contact with North Osetiya, and they have a Russian passport as well as a SO one. Their country lives on a territory that some years ago was considered G, a part of the population is G, especially in towns that are neighboring each other, or are on the border.

 

T-2 days to the conflict, SO side notices upwards of a hundred busses filled with women and children leaving their towns, the homes and men are left, most of the things are left in the house, some SO suspect that G were rushed out by some order of the G side, some start suspecting something wrong.

 

T-1 day to conflict, G men in SO towns are assembling themselves in groups, taking out weapons they got in 2005 (there are documents saying that G gov-t gave out over a 1000 pieces of firearms to the Georgians in the SO area in 2005). At this point noone still knows what is going on.

 

T-3 hours to the conflict, G president assures SO safety, expresses his love for the region.

 

T-0, between 3 and 5am G forces move into SO. G forces are comprised of the G army trained by the US and Israeli commanders, Ukranian Hires, Latvian snipers, French, Israily and US: tanks, fighter planes, heavy artillery, air defense systems, and rapid fire missile systems, and a couple of destroyers.

 

Night of Aug 8, 2008, G forces reach the capital of SO and continue moving in. At this poin the death toll in SO is over a 100k, mostly civilians, mostly unarmed, mostly brutally shot and mutilated inside their own homes, unarmed. Women and children are hiding, whoever is still fighting back is being advised to give up, and to flee to NO provided a corridor, which is never provided, and anyone who takes this opportunity to flee is shot on sight by the G military. In the list of dead are 66 Russian Peace Keepers, who were working with Georgian Peace Keepers in the are to prevent what happened. Now, SO provide accounts when G peace keepers were shooting at civilians, and also at their R counterparts. If you know, killing any country's peace keeper is an international crime, a member of peace court shooting at another member, is an even bigger crime.

 

Morning of 08/09/08 the blood bath continues, several G cell phone videos account for the sheer brutality of the conflict, shooting nades cars that are trying to get to safety, taking down signs, killing civilians, etc, etc.

 

by the end of the day SO people are begging for help from anyone, and noone is coming fast, Nato's on the other side of the fence.

 

t after 2 days, R forces in NO move into the region to protect the R people of the SO republic, also this action is taken as a reply to the killing of peace core members. G does not have a well-trained army, thus anyone who was not a real soldier, and looking at a dyer situation in the field, many G soldiers flee the field, leaving behind us weapons, NATO food and uniform. Shortest joke in SO becomes "Georgian soldier", the international community is now made aware of Russian involvement with Georgia, the entire world piles onto the G side, as if R did something they were not supposed to, failing to look at the whole situation, US and UN proposes sanctions against R, inspite of the crimes committed by G side, post cold war AntiUSSR fanatics start gaining power, McCain finally outdoes Obama at the poles, media focuses on R move into G...

 

I present to you the approximate guide lines, i leave you with making your decision about this conflict.

 

I will only finish with this, Medvedev is viewed as a dictator by many in US, yet in the constitution of any country that has a constitution states that the president's role is to defend the lives and dignity of the people he represents, wherever they may be.....

 

You draw your final conclusions, i just wanted to present the other side of the argument, if it makes even one person realize just how messed up this world really is, and why so many people need to stop being self-centered ignomaniacs (maniacal ignorers), i think i did what i wanted to, with this write-up...

 

 

Think, don't let others tell you what you should or should not be believing in!

 

 

-- Alex --