I'm biulding a Hydrogen generater , are you interested?

[DanGray]

No one is arguing that your design will not work. What we are saying is that you are actually losing efficiency by doing so.

 

Now, it may work out that you save money by doing this, but that's only because electricity is currently cheaper than gas.

 

agreed a lot cheeper if made by the auto it's used on.

 

by freeztar, actually losing efficiency.

Now, it may work out that you save money by doing this

isn't the name of this game saving money?

 

yes it was said basily it won't work..***

 

Nitack Whether, for use in your car, or for a grill, or for generating power for your house, you will ultimately put more energy into the system than you get out.

 

The only way this will actually help you is if you use something like a solar panel to produce the hydrogen. Even then, you will not get that much. On top of that, you will generally need a fuel cell to get any real energy out of the system, which requires very expensive materials, namely platinum

 

which way is it???

[DanGray]

look at the link I put up again guys more info in it..

[Nitack]

agreed a lot cheeper if made by the auto it's used on.

 

Actually, no, cheaper if made from the wall outlet. In the car you go through the multi-step conversion process I explained earlier.

 

isn't the name of this game saving money?

 

The premise of your original statement said nothing about money. You say efficiency and I think energy, not money. that being said, you won't save money either.

 

yes it was said basily it won't work..***

 

which way is it???

 

No one said it would not work. what was said is that you will ultimately lose efficiency, and lose energy by the process. Which means you will use more gasoline.

 

It should also be noted that you are changing the nature of the reaction in your engine from combustion (generally safe) to a combination of combustion and explosion (not so safe). Gasoline does not explode, hydrogen will. Please make sure that where ever your hydrogen condenser and tank are located will not be in a crush zone of your car.

[DanGray]

Actually, no, cheaper if made from the wall outlet. In the car you go through the multi-step conversion process I explained earlier. ( disgree here again reread please)

 

 

 

The premise of your original statement said nothing about money. You say efficiency and I think energy, not money. that being said, you won't save money either. ( I said I need help making a control ) you said the other things )

No one said it would not work. what was said is that you will ultimately lose efficiency, and lose energy by the process. Which means you will use more gasoline. ( when the miles per gal go up that can't be so..)

 

It should also be noted that you are changing the nature of the reaction in your engine from combustion (generally safe) to a combination of combustion and explosion (not so safe). Gasoline does not explode, hydrogen will. Please make sure that where ever your hydrogen condenser and tank are located will not be in a crush zone of your car.

I think you need to read my statements again...

 

I'll agree on the gasoline part only the fumes burn gasoline wet can't burn..

 

as said before this unit is on demand only it doesn't have a storage tank so the safety factor is fairly high

the plans for this unit is over 100 pages long so it's not a slap it together deal..

 

thanks for your help guys if interested as I said go to the link I posted..

these guys are saving fuel costs or they would not be still using them..

[freeztar]

thanks for your help guys if interested as I said go to the link I posted..

these guys are saving fuel costs or they would not be still using them..

 

I've read through that link. It's riddled with misconceptions and no links are given. No offense, but with subjects such as this, I would find a science site such as this more credible than a knife maker forum.

 

In fact, there's a thread from about a week ago here:

 

http://hypography.com/forums/engineering-and-applied-science/15830-browns-gas.html

 

Read through that, follow the links (notice that the members here link to external sources), and then post back with your thoughts.

 

(Nice survival school knife btw :) )

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Freezy-I would find a science site such as this more credible than a knife maker forum.

Is our Bovine compatriot pedaling snake oil on the side again?!?

 

Wasn't this particular MPG enhancer busted not too long ago on that show with those two guy's....you know...that show... the one has a mustache.

 

BTW. diamond wave, square wave etc. really ain't going to make much of a difference in H and O2 output...straight DC provides the highest gas yield per minute.

 

As far as AC goes personally the idea scares me...oxidizers and explosives should always be kept separate as they tend to go boom (take it from someone who has had a cutting torch explode in his hands thanks to a leaky O2 valve.)

[Nitack]

Scientific proof debunking the "run your car on water" scams

 

However, on closer inspection it all falls apart.

 

Yes, the addition of H2 and O2 the intake of an engine does appear to improve the thermal efficiency by (in the case of the tests cited) an astonishing 15%.

 

However, the following destroys the claims of the HHO fans.

 

1. The amount of HHO gas required is far, far greater than any of the commercially available or DIY electrolysis cells on the market can produce. Indeed, the amount of electricity required to create these gas volumes is once again beyond the ability of any conventional car's electrical system.

2. The particulate output of the engine being tested actually *increased* significantly, whereas the HHO proponents are claiming lower emissions. In fact, particulate emissions are now being cited as a major health risk and cause of premature death

 

So, as is so often the case with these scams, this one does have some very tenuous link to scientific principle. Unfortunately, what they don't tell you (or probably don't even understand) is that the very tiny amounts of this gas they're injecting into their engines will have almost no effect whatsoever on the combustion efficiency of their engines -- and what improvement there is will be more than lost to the extra load put on their alternators.

 

'nuf said. Thank you come again

[DanGray]

I've read through that link. It's riddled with misconceptions and no links are given. No offense, but with subjects such as this, I would find a science site such as this more credible than a knife maker forum. :shrug:

 

In fact, there's a thread from about a week ago here:

 

http://hypography.com/forums/engineering-and-applied-science/15830-browns-gas.html

 

Read through that, follow the links (notice that the members here link to external sources), and then post back with your thoughts.

 

(Nice survival school knife btw :lol: )

 

 

I'll do that Thanks..

look at the link again there is another forum link there now to where this stuff is being looked at also..

 

you'll find that us dummies in the custom knife biz will do some studying on something we have heard done or not and then try do it to prove for our selves if something works or not , even if it's been written it can't be done, even though the wheel hasn't been reinvented YET it has come a long way since it's inception..

I'm sure you have heard.. :lol: necessity is the mother of invention

 

thanks for the comment on the ESK that blade works very well for what it was designed for , sells well too :lol:

[Moontanman]

first

I'm not sure why you keep running back to domestic? it's not a big point but a fact of the paper work not proven by me.. but it does say 3 amp or less. you do know that is not a lot of power I'm sure.. but regardless

 

for proof of this in general that these do work again ED is that proof of mine.. here

a Hydrogen generator , fuel for a forge (;>)) I need help - BladeForums.com

he is using an additive to his water but my plans ( different than that of his) call for none, the guy I got my plans from has a working unit also..but I need to confirm that he has gone by the plans 100%..

no chem.'s added. the one ED is using is not IMO keeping a close enough tolerances to not to have to use something for an electrolyte..

 

that being said, again, I'm not asking for help with anything but the electronics part of this, the rest I don't have a problem with.. :shrug:

 

Wow, going from 24 to 36 mph! You guys should write a paper for The Nobel Prize Committee, violating the laws of thermodynamics has great potential in all aspects of technology not just saving gas. I thought you were just doing the old "using a battery to turn a motor to turn a generator to charge the battery thing". Obviously I was mistaken, great knives by the way, I like the one that looks like it has grain, how is that done?

[DanGray]

great knives by the way, I like the one that looks like it has grain, how is that done?

 

we grow special steel in our back yards and keep it as a secret.

see we all have room to learn... :shrug:

haha that was meant for the others,, if you saw it on my site it's forge welded Damascus steel I made :lol:

 

 

say what you will I'd rather be spending time making the generator than trying to convince you guys :lol:

 

I will say a few things, then back to work because I don't have anymore time to sit here two fingering this key board ..

 

1 it was mentioned about EFI idling changes switching from Fuels, and that the RPM's should change,,, that is done through the IAC motor, if you knew how the IFI works you'd know that.. and it would not be a question . so I guess you've limited yourself to only what you know not what could be..

 

2 most of the guys that I know that are trying this stuff are using older cars that do not have onboard fuel computers so they fill up at the gas station record their mileage and the amount of fuel used,, and then see the mileage increase.. what of that one? Hmmm debunked

 

3 if the guys did write a paper they would be spending time doing that and not saving money on fuel right.. :lol:

 

4 your calculations will not be correct because of a few reasons, but I will mention one, you did not take into account the volume of the gases be them what ever, even if,, at the very least,, you are introducing H2o (water) that was not a typo, in to the piston bores as a mist you take up space increasing compression so that alone will increase HP among other things. years ago it was proven that water injected into the combustor chamber increased over all efficiency of fuel and performance.. it's just to much of a pain to use for most.

 

yes I agree there is some guys selling units that are not efficient in making hydrogen as did guys that sold Snake oil, but we still buy drugs right.. it all wasn't voodoo

 

Wow, going from 24 to 36 mph! You guys should write a paper

before I started that thread I didn't know ED was using a generator he just commented on his, he has know reason to lye about it nor dose he sell them

so what is your motive?

 

I don't have to prove anything , I didn't come here to do any such thing just to get help on an electronic board and I've found that help..

you mite like to know that the paper work I have is from public documents from the science you all know but the technology was to old to work effectively then.

 

I'll ask one more question though how much are you paying for gas :lol:

like I said I'm going to spend better time building this , hey it may not work,, tell it to the guys that are using them..

 

as mentioned,, done

[Moontanman]

we grow special steel in our back yards and keep it as a secret.

see we all have room to learn... :shrug:

haha that was meant for the others,, if you saw it on my site it's forge welded Damascus steel I made :lol:

 

That really is cool, I've seen a lot of fake blades like that but never a real one, is it difficult to do? I have always dreamed of making a series of fantasy blades based on certain fantasy and science fiction novels. Ever read Saberhagens Book of Swords series? really great science fantasy based on powerful swords.

 

say what you will I'd rather be spending time making the generator than trying to convince you guys :lol:

 

If it really works I don't blame you a bit, let us know how it turns out but be fair, don't BS us if it doesn't work because you are embarrassed to admit it.

 

I will say a few things, then back to work because I don't have anymore time to sit here two fingering this key board ..

 

1 it was mentioned about EFI idling changes switching from Fuels, and that the RPM's should change,,, that is done through the IAC motor, if you knew how the IFI works you'd know that.. and it would not be a question . so I guess you've limited yourself to only what you know not what could be..

 

No we are limited to what we know is possible, there is a difference.

 

2 most of the guys that I know that are trying this stuff are using older cars that do not have onboard fuel computers so they fill up at the gas station record their mileage and the amount of fuel used,, and then see the mileage increase.. what of that one? Hmmm debunked

 

I would really like to see a proof of this, i can almost see how an older car might be made more efficient in some way.

 

3 if the guys did write a paper they would be spending time doing that and not saving money on fuel right.. :lol:

 

Uh, do you know anything about the Nobel Prize? It's lots of money!

 

 

4 your calculations will not be correct because of a few reasons, but I will mention one, you did not take into account the volume of the gases be them what ever, even if,, at the very least,, you are introducing H2o (water) that was not a typo, in to the piston bores as a mist you take up space increasing compression so that alone will increase HP among other things. years ago it was proven that water injected into the combustor chamber increased over all efficiency of fuel and performance.. it's just to much of a pain to use for most.

 

I am honestly open to any proofs you might be able to offer, all we have is the laws of thermodynamics, if you guys have found a way to get around that or are using an effect that is unknown I am all for it.

 

yes I agree there is some guys selling units that are not efficient in making hydrogen as did guys that sold Snake oil, but we still buy drugs right.. it all wasn't voodoo

 

That's all we have to go on so far. anecdotal evidence cannot be accepted at face value.

 

before I started that thread I didn't know ED was using a generator he just commented on his, he has know reason to lye about it nor dose he sell them

so what is your motive?

 

I don't like to see people scammed, even if it's an accidental scam.

 

I don't have to prove anything , I didn't come here to do any such thing just to get help on an electronic board and I've found that help..

you mite like to know that the paper work I have is from public documents from the science you all know but the technology was to old to work effectively then.

 

Yes you do, you made wild claims, the rules say you have to justify those claims with facts. if this does work in some way i can only see it working on older model cars, new cars should be tweaked to the limit already.

 

I'll ask one more question though how much are you paying for gas :lol:

like I said I'm going to spend better time building this , hey it may not work,, tell it to the guys that are using them..as mentioned,, done

 

I'm paying way to damn much but not enough to try and violate the laws of physics to throw money away. let us know how it works, be truthful, have real figures, not just he said she said. Keep close track of the before and after facts, if you do and it does give you better mileage I'll be impressed. Most of the stuff i sent you was only partly tongue in cheek. If you can prove it then that would be great, if i had something like that i would be writing a paper so fast it would make your head swim. There's more than prestige in that Nobel Prize!

[Nitack]

MTM is kinder than me. I am sure you will fail :shrug:

 

But, I will also concede that either through placebo effect, or misinterpretation of the data, you will feel really good about yourself and all of your hard work that gave you better gas millage. :lol: So there is a good side right?

 

As for how much I am paying... probably less than you... I walk or take the train :lol:

[DanGray]

MTM is kinder than me. I am sure you will fail

 

But, I will also concede that either through placebo effect, or misinterpretation of the data, you will feel really good about yourself and all of your hard work that gave you better gas millage. ;) So there is a good side right?

 

As for how much I am paying... probably less than you... I walk or take the train :D

 

now I know why you walk to work, you won't build a generator to make it cheaper for you :hyper::)

Just kidding ;)

MTM I'll do that..

nothing ventured nothing gained right? if I limit myself just because it's said that others can't do something then I'm not true to my self.. believe me I understand your points but even working perpetual motion is still being worked on .. but laws are made to be broken or at the very least tried..

for me it's like doctors some learn from others but leaders will do for themselves excelling from the pack with new ways and new ideas ..

[Nitack]

1. believe me I understand your points but even working perpetual motion is still being worked on .. 2. but laws are made to be broken or at the very least tried..

 

1. You obviously don't understand by this statement. You can't violate a physical law of the universe, and perpetual motion is impossible by those laws. The point we were trying to make is that those people still working on perpetual motion are only wasting their money. the attempt was to save you much time, effort, and capitol.

2. Not these laws. You break these laws and you break the universe... why do you want to destroy the universe Dan? :hyper:

[DanGray]

1. You obviously don't understand by this statement. You can't violate a physical law of the universe, and perpetual motion is impossible by those laws. The point we were trying to make is that those people still working on perpetual motion are only wasting their money. the attempt was to save you much time, effort, and capitol.

2. Not these laws. You break these laws and you break the universe... why do you want to destroy the universe Dan? :)

 

sure I do, I said I understand your point, not that I agree with it.., I just meant to say perpetual motion is still being worked on..I'll never say it won't happen..

there is much you and I still don't understand it's just a matter of time for our minds to catch up with reality.. if it's meant to be?

to prove the men wrong that wrote the laws as they understand what's happening,, we might violate mans mindset but surly not the universe,

it's worked fine on it's own with out us .

 

so

it would not destroy the universe it would only mean the law

was invalid and prove man is fallible in his thinking

and then have to be correctly re-written by again,Man

;) thanks for trying to save me money,

it's not going to be a lot spent.. I just need the time to make it..

hey BTW

why no comment on the water mist, IAC motor and the lack of a fuel monitor? it was some of your premise of why this won't work?

and a lot to with your write to debunk this.

:hyper: just wondering

[Nitack]

hey BTW

why no comment on the water mist, IAC motor and the lack of a fuel monitor? it was some of your premise of why this won't work?

and a lot to with your write to debunk this.

:hyper: just wondering

 

Did you bother reading the 23rd post in this thread? Or perhaps the linked article. It addressed all of the topics that you seem to think support the technology. The article actually admits that it is possible that HHO may actually make the gasoline burn more efficiently, but that the automobile systems can't produce enough of the gas to actually achieve that efficiency.

[freeztar]

Dan, if I told you I could jump up to the clouds, thousands of feet up, would you believe me? I'm quite sure you would not believe me. Why? Because there's this thing called gravity that keeps everyone's feet firmly planted on the ground. It's a law of the universe that can't be broken. I will never be able to jump up to the clouds, nor will anyone else on Earth.

 

It's the same with the law that states you can't get more out than what you put in. You can not get output that exceeds 100%, even in a perfectly efficient system. This is what we're trying to tell you. It's not that we're in a mental rut and can't envision new possibilities, it's just that we know where the limits of possibility are (in relation to physical laws) and do not waste our time trying to do the impossible.

 

Perhaps if you posted the basic schematic, we could help pinpoint why, specifically, it will not work. Or, like MTM said, we could rejoice in the greatest scientific achievement in hundreds of years.