Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[REASON]

Could our current financial problems be in great measure due to people getting something(houses) they couldn't pay for?

 

I already had a long, drawn-out discussion with you about this subject, questor, and you were not able to demonstrate that low income housing foreclosures were anywhere close to the source of the financial crisis. This is just an example of spewing partisan rhetoric. You even went as far as to blame the Civil Rights Act as the start of it all.

 

This is all part of your rail against the poor. In your world, people dealing with hard times would be left to die in the streets just so a small chunk of your annual taxes aren't used to help someone out who is less fortunate or struggling to make ends meet. Let's talk about your sense of morality. Meanwhile, I suspect you have supported wars in the Middle East that are costing taxpayers 10 billion dollars a month that have been counterproductive, and caused the deaths of literally hundreds of thousands of people including more than 4,000 of our young soldiers. :xx:

 

These are screwed up priorities in my opinion.

 

 

Do you think that welfare recipients get something for nothing? Or do they have to do something in return?

 

Sure, questor. Welfare recipients are living high off the hog. :rolleyes: Obviously you aren't satisfied with the welfare reform created by the 1996 Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act which was seen as the "cornerstone of the Republican Contract With America," and signed into law by Bill Clinton.

 

I'm sure you will not be happy until there is absolutely no assistance for those living in poverty in this country. This is in no way consistent with the morality espoused by Jesus Christ in the Bible.

 

 

If you pay taxes, do you think your own taxes will go up or down? Are you pleased about this?

 

If Obama is elected president and his tax plan is implemented, for which there is no guarantee, I will receive a tax cut from what I am currently paying, which will remain the same under Bush's McCain's plan. I welcome a tax cut and will be pleased considering my wages have been relatively stagnant over the past eight years while my cost of living has risen significantly. I like tax cuts. It does not bother me that the richest one percent in our society will be paying for my tax break. They have been benefitting substantially more than I have under the Bush tax plan, which has been a giveaway to his wealthy friends and corporate buddies lobbyists.

[modest]

I pay taxes, since I make less than $250,000 mine will go down, yes I like it

 

If Obama is elected president and his tax plan is implemented, for which there is no guarantee, I will receive a tax cut from what I am currently paying, which will remain the same under Bush's McCain's plan.

 

This is good info guys. I haven't kept up with the different tax proposals or the campaigns at all really.

 

I have to keep a close eye on my income and expected taxes because the majority of my income is from being self employed / freelance. If I don't set aside a reasonably close estimate (which can be very difficult) then I can get into big trouble at the end of the year.

 

An Obama tax cut for the less than 100K/yr bracket would certainly be very helpful - if my vote weren't already decided, I think that might do it.

 

~modest

[Essay]

This is good info guys. I haven't kept up with the different tax proposals or the campaigns at all really.

There's an ad on TV where they show a web-calculator that'll give you the difference between the two candidate's tax plans.

===

 

After reading Reason's nicely spaced out post, it occurred to me:

 

Questor, it's as if you're the reincarnated....

I'm seeing a pattern here based on the Objectivist Ideology (or philosophy) developed out of Ayn Rand's literature. see:

http://hypography.com/forums/philosophy-and-humanities/16853-greenspan-s-faith-ideology-trumps-science.html#post242456

& the discussion about morals vs. morality on (any of pages 9-12):

http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/16311-theistic-and-atheistic-influences-on-society-11.html#post242509

 

Comments on Objectivism should probably be posted on the Greenspan Ideology Topic.

Let's stick to which candidate is helping/blaming (or not) the "non-Achievers of the world" on this thread.

 

But yea, it's like if you can understand Objectivism, you can understand the "fear-of-liberals" POV's.

 

:rolleyes:

....point of views?

~

[REASON]

This is good info guys. I haven't kept up with the different tax proposals or the campaigns at all really.

 

I have to keep a close eye on my income and expected taxes because the majority of my income is from being self employed / freelance. If I don't set aside a reasonably close estimate (which can be very difficult) then I can get into big trouble at the end of the year.

 

modest, you're Joe the Plumber.

[freeztar]

An Obama tax cut for the less than 100K/yr bracket would certainly be very helpful - if my vote weren't already decided, I think that might do it.

 

I believe it's 250k, but regardless, if you haven't already sealed your votes for Congress, I'd recommend making those choices as those will be the folks voting on the tax cuts/hikes.

[InfiniteNow]

[Zythryn]

Questor, it is a shame you are probably not listening to Obama's speach right now.

He is talking about taking responsibility for ones self. For the responsibility of parents for their childrens education.

If you could get past your preconceptions and biases I think you really would have liked the speech.

[Pyrotex]

That was some speech. And you got it right, it had a lot of "conservative" buzzwords in there: responsibility, sacrifice, hard work. Loved it.

 

I voted early last week. Went for Obama/Biden, the Democrat incumbent senator, Nick Lampson, but a fair split between D&R for the other state and local offices. Except I voted for nearly all Republican judges.

 

Basically, I liked both presidential candidates, and after having seen the Frontline 2-hour special on them and their backgrounds, I could have gone either way. The tax issue doesn't float my boat, even though my wife and I together make waaaay less than 250K$. The two things that swung me to Obama were simply:

1. I feel the problems this nation faces right now demand a high order of critical thinking; Obama, although a Democrat, is the most intelligent candidate I've seen in many years.

2. Palin was a poor choice for the (Republican) VP slot; I can NOT in good conscience put her in position to take the helm of state. We do NOT need a soccer mom--we need a Rhodes scholar.

[modest]

There's an ad on TV where they show a web-calculator that'll give you the difference between the two candidate's tax plans.

That's the ticket

 

Seriously, that's good info. Found it on the Obama campaign site. Smart folks over there running the Obama site

 

Speaking of people running campaigns...

 

Bitter infighting between advisers to John McCain and his running-mate, Sarah Palin, has exploded into public view, with McCain supporters accusing her of being a "diva" and her own faction warning that they would not let her take the blame if the campaign suffers a heavy defeat.

 

Anonymous briefing and counter-briefing yesterday suggested Governor Palin is "going rogue" and blaming many of the campaign's senior advisers for her own plummeting poll ratings. The internecine warfare threatened to overwhelm the Republican effort to close the gap with rival Barack Obama in the final days before the election.

 

"She is a diva," one McCain loyalist told CNN last night. "She takes no advice from anyone. Also, she is playing for her own future and sees herself as the next leader of the party."

 

-www.independent.co.uk

 

Did McCain's campaign have a breakdown?

 

modest, you're Joe the Plumber.

 

:( I tried so hard to keep my identity secret... and you found me out :eek:

 

~Joe the Plumber modest

[C1ay]

An Obama tax cut for the less than 100K/yr bracket would certainly be very helpful ...

 

Why should anyone get a tax cut before the deficit is paid down? Tell me. Which candidate is promising the most spending cuts vs tax cuts? Which is promising the least amount of spending increases? Is any of them hawking any plans to reduce spending to responsible levels or to balance the tax burden fairly among the citizens of the country?

[modest]

Why should anyone get a tax cut before the deficit is paid down? Tell me.

Prevailing wisdom would make the answer: recession. The federal government's ability to borrow money is a powerful tool - most naturally to be used when economic times are bad. Unfortunately, this necessitates a surplus when times are good.

 

The only other options available are:

• Reaganomics: Cut taxes and increase spending and never pay back the money borrowed. Don't worry about the future because Jesus is coming back.
  
• Never Borrow: America (as a country) has bad credit and should not be allowed to borrow money at all.
  

Which candidate is promising the most spending cuts vs tax cuts?

My gut instinct would tell me that getting out of Iraq would be the largest spending cut imaginable, by far trumping all others. But, that's a guess.

Which is promising the least amount of spending increases?

My guess: McCain.

Is any of them hawking any plans to reduce spending to responsible levels or to balance the tax burden fairly among the citizens of the country?

Sure, both sides will tell you their plain is both responsible (to the first question) and fair(on the second). I'm personally not well-enough informed about their plans or economics in general to disagree with either.

 

My reason for wanting a tax cut even if those over 250K are getting a tax increase is entirely selfish. I never imagined 2 or 3 years ago that I'd be having as much trouble (financially) as I'm having right now. I do feel a responsibility to vote for candidates that will at least try to balance the budget. But, at the same time I feel like I need some help at the moment. If satisfying both these personal preferences means a slightly unfair tax plan then so be it.

 

~modest

[Galapagos]

Obamarama on TV right now:

 

Washington Wire - WSJ.com : Obama Set to Reach Millions With Tonight's Infomercial

 

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama stands to reach millions of viewers tonight with a half-hour infomercial airing at 8 p.m. EDT on four broadcast networks and three cable channels.

 

The special, which will include live and taped components, will be carried on broadcasters CBS, Fox, NBC and Spanish-language network Univision, as well as on MSNBC, BET and TV One.

[Thunderbird]

Obamarama on TV right now:

 

Washington Wire - WSJ.com : Obama Set to Reach Millions With Tonight's Infomercial

Do you hear a rumble ? Obama's election day land slide. ;):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):applause::hihi::

[freeztar]

how much of our taxes goes to people who will not work and are just living off the public dole? What percentage of the money we all send to the government actually goes to benifiting people who will not work?

 

Well, I don't know about the "will not work" factor, but I found that Mark Palermo does a good job of quantifying it here imo:

 

Newsvine - How Much Does Welfare Cost?

 

I hate to use averages, but the average taxpayer had a tax rate of 12.45% in 2005 (the latest data available here), so if we multiply things out we see that about 0.93% of the average taxpayer’s income went to non-medical “welfare”. So, if you made $50,000 and paid $6,225.00 in Federal income tax, approximately $465.00 went to all of these programs x-healthcare and veterans pensions.

[C1ay]

Prevailing wisdom would make the answer: recession. The federal government's ability to borrow money is a powerful tool - most naturally to be used when economic times are bad. Unfortunately, this necessitates a surplus when times are good.

 

Prevailing wisdom says that when you, as a nation, have already borrowed and spent more than you can keep up the payments on should not lead you to think that borrowing more money is the answer. Deficit spending must be brought under control. We have a bill to pay and we need to pay it. We have about 200 million taxpayers in this country so we all need to step up to the plate and start paying our 1/200,000,000th part of the bill.

 

My gut instinct would tell me that getting out of Iraq would be the largest spending cut imaginable, by far trumping all others. But, that's a guess.

 

What might be the consequences of exiting Iraq prematurely? We are there at the request of their new government. Might a better alternative be a negotiation for that new government to step up to the plate and pay for our services?

 

 

Sure, both sides will tell you their plain is both responsible (to the first question) and fair(on the second). I'm personally not well-enough informed about their plans or economics in general to disagree with either.

 

My reason for wanting a tax cut even if those over 250K are getting a tax increase is entirely selfish. I never imagined 2 or 3 years ago that I'd be having as much trouble (financially) as I'm having right now. I do feel a responsibility to vote for candidates that will at least try to balance the budget. But, at the same time I feel like I need some help at the moment. If satisfying both these personal preferences means a slightly unfair tax plan then so be it.

 

Selfishness and greed is one of the top reasons our nation is in the position it is now. Electing politicians that promise to continue doing more of the same will not fix the problem. "None of the above" should really have a landslide victory this election season. Until we the people decide to exercise our own patriotic responsibilities we will not have politicians that will. It is time for "we the people" to do what needs to be done. FWIW, my own financial situation is extremely dire since my own business relies heavily on the construction business which is likely dead for the next few years :rose:

[C1ay]

Do you hear a rumble ? Obama's election day land slide. :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):rose::applause:;):

 

Gloat now but be warned about what you wish for:

 

“A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.” “From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.”

 

Obama is clearly the candidate in the current lot which promises the most benefits from the public treasury. If he gets a Congress willing to make those gifts a reality our descendants will pay heavily for our mistake.

[Nitack]

Gloat now but be warned about what you wish for:

 

“A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.” “From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.”

 

Obama is clearly the candidate in the current lot which promises the most benefits from the public treasury. If he gets a Congress willing to make those gifts a reality our descendants will pay heavily for our mistake.

 

Here is the sad truth. I have actually started telling people that a vote for Obama was a good thing. We were already scheduled to go bankrupt before Stall-bama. Once he gets into office and starts spending up a storm we will just go bankrupt sooner... Then we can finally get rid of the socialism and get back to sound financial policy.

 

The level of economic ignorance in this country astounds me. :rose: