Obama/Biden vs. McCain/Palin

[freeztar]

But there's still much to learn about Sarah Palin. :singer:

 

Who is Sarah Palin? :hyper:

[freeztar]

How about this one folks:

 

YouTube - Dear Mr. Obama http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8

 

I wanted to comment on the video, extrapolating that we invade Darfur, Iran, Zimbabwe, and N. Korea so that we can spread freedom. But, lo and behold, I couldn't express my sarcasm because they have the comments set to only appear upon approval.

It seems a bit...biased.

[Grains]

You know, I understand not liking to pay taxes, but I also don't like a government that spends excessively beyond it's means. I can't imagine that enormous budget deficits and a national debt spiraling out of control to the tune of nearly ten trillion dollars would be having no effect on the state of our economy. Not to mention trade deficits. I expect the government to exhibit fiscal responsibility whether being managed by Democrats or Republicans, and I don't think it can be denied that the current administration and congress has been horrible in this regard. I'd like to see some change here. I bet we can agree on that.

 

Absolutely agree. But let us remember the current deficit was not created all by this congress and president.

 

Also, while I hear your point about taxes, I do believe it would be worthwhile to apply your math to other household expenditures that have been hammered by rampant inflation such as energy costs, food, insurance of all flavors, etc., and much of this money goes to private industry which is either located, or has relocated abroad, and is being lost to foreign investment. At least I can expect my tax dollars to be spent here at home. The problem always is, will the government use good judgement with how they spend it. Well, considering this bogus Iraq endeavor is expected to top three trillion dollars, and we don't seem to be getting anything worthwhile out of it, it ends up looking like a pretty stupid investment of our tax dollars, not to mention all the money we've had to borrow from China and Japan to help fund it, which has helped to weaken the dollar. This doesn't even come near the moral and ethical problems that this invasion has generated as well.

 

Once again, I'm looking for a different approach.

 

I disagree with you here. Just because the government may get the money here does not mean it is spent here. Money in the hands of our government is a lost cause. Look at any major government project and they have a deficit. Government cannot be efficient. It needs competition. I myself lay more on the libertarian side on these issues.

 

I like this diagram.

 

Government Spending Diagram

 

Essentially, I want to elect the Orkin Man to go in with pesticide and rid our government agencies and departments of the Neo-con infestation that has run rampant for the last two cycles. Neo-cons aren't conservative, they are really more like Neo-liberals, and they're just as bad. I'll take a traditional Republican like Teddy or Ike or even Reagan over these imperialist Jacobin ideologues any day. All they really care about is agressively and forcefully expanding their notion of American Exceptionalism around the world, and massive profitability for segments of the private sector which they are closely tied financially. It doesn't matter who gets hurt in the process.

 

Agreed! The only part I disagree with is that they are not as bad as liberals. I also don't buy into all of this neo stuff.

 

Do you think I can rely on John McCain to thoroughly flush them out of the Justice, State, and Defense Departments? I think there's a chance, but unfortunately, he's had to sound too much like them recently in order to secure the conservative base who has been transformed by their rhetoric, and I worry he may have been converted. He really hasn't sounded much like the "Maverick" he once was through the course of this campaign. He seems to have changed his tune on a number of issues. But maybe he realizes it's the role he must play in order to get elected, and the real maverick of the Senate will show up again once he is sworn in. If he gets elected, I sure hope that happens.

 

I absolutely think you can rely on McCain. I think him and Palin together are a tough team who WILL clean up Washington. They both have success in balancing budgets and they have taken care or corruption. The resume does not get better than that for what we need right now. What worries me about Obama is that he has never balanced a budget, never worked in a bi-partisan effort, and never has cleaned up corruption. i am looking for the resume that I think fits the job description. You asked me if I think I can rely on McCain, I do. Again, I don't get all into that media stuff like "maverick", "neo", etc, so I cannot really comment on all of that.

 

At least with Obama, I can count on the fact that there will be some serious flushing going on.

 

I respectfully disagree. There will be more clogging in my eyes. He will be stopped by his own party. He will try to get people to come to his side and since he has no relationships will be forced into approving things he wouldn't otherwise approve to gain that relationship to pull for something on his side. All presidents must do this but he is going to have to do A LOT of it because he has no major political connections.

 

One thing I think is important when considering candidates for president is whether they are likely to make sound judgements about who to surround themselves with - their advisors, cabinet, and staffers. While presidents do make the final decision, offen their decision can only be as good as the information and advice they receive. So far, we have seen how each of the current candidates have made decisions in this regard, and in the matter of selecting a Vice President, I think Obama has demonstrated better judgement that is more substantive, and less political. To be honest, I think McCain was pressured into selecting Palin, and that she was not his first choice. While it concerns me that he may have succumbed to that pressure, it may also be proven to have been good advice. But there's still much to learn about Sarah Palin. :hyper:

 

I agree with you. The president these days has little to do with much except VETOs and we rarely see that power even used. I completely agree that advisors, cabinet, and staffers are crucial. I think however you are not giving Palin enough credit. Alot of what I am hearing about Palin on this message board sounds like an echo of CNBC in the background. I am not saying you by the way. I think Palin has a great track record. Again, she has balanced a budget and fought corruption. Again, I find it funny when people say they don't know much about Palin when she has more of a consistent (or even saying Yay or Nay) voting record and actions that define her then Obama.

 

I enjoyed your comments and agree with a lot of what you have to say. Do I think McCain/Palin is the perfect choice....no. But I absolutely think Obama has no business at what he is getting in to and think he would be the worst choice out of everyone. Reasons being.

 

1) Unexperienced- no explanation necessary

2) No Connections- Easily manipulated allowing for corruption

3) Speech- You think Bush is bad..lol

4) Self Righteous- no explanation necessary

5) Environment- He signed on to Bob Dole's environmental proposal has none of his own. Well he didn't have any of his own right before democratic nominee campaign. Now he has a whole bunch he whipped up last minute. You know what happens to project whipped up last minute.

6) Consistency- None there. Look at democratic campaign to prez. campaign.

7) Allegiance- I don't take the campaigning in another country likely. I think if he wants to run for World president he needs to go take it up with the UN.

8) Vice President- I think he is an a**hole and his track record makes me want to throw up.

9) Strength- i don't think he has the cohunas to deal with Russia and that makes me very nervous right now.

10) He looks to good in a speedo to be a president :hyper::hyper::singer::hyper:

[freeztar]

Absolutely agree. But let us remember the current deficit was not created all by this congress and president.

Please explain (with factual references).

 

I also don't buy into all of this neo stuff.

What do you not buy into?

 

The president these days has little to do with much except VETOs and we rarely see that power even used.

 

It seems that you are basing this solely on the last 8 years. Even so, the president can propose war actions, being the Commander in Chief. That's a pretty big power that's been used by the present administration.

 

I completely agree that advisors, cabinet, and staffers are crucial. I think however you are not giving Palin enough credit. Alot of what I am hearing about Palin on this message board sounds like an echo of CNBC in the background. I am not saying you by the way. I think Palin has a great track record. Again, she has balanced a budget and fought corruption. Again, I find it funny when people say they don't know much about Palin when she has more of a consistent (or even saying Yay or Nay) voting record and actions that define her then Obama.

 

They're both crapshoots. Yay! :)

 

Reasons being.

 

1) Unexperienced- no explanation necessary

Obama might be considered inexperienced, but at least he's been on Capitol Hill for a little while. Reagen, the actor president, would receive the same criticism today. Why can actors get elected under the Republican platform without much resistance, but democratic Senators are imediately trumped as inexperienced?

2) No Connections- Easily manipulated allowing for corruption

If Obama is elected, he will have to forge connections - same with McCain. Corruption is inherent in Us politics as far as I can tell, regardless of party affiliation.

3) Speech- You think Bush is bad..lol

 

You're kidding right?

Obama is very eloquent in his speaking. Bush is so bad that there's even a phrase invented for it, bushism.

4) Self Righteous- no explanation necessary

Sean Hannity, is that you?

5) Environment- He signed on to Bob Dole's environmental proposal has none of his own. Well he didn't have any of his own right before democratic nominee campaign. Now he has a whole bunch he whipped up last minute. You know what happens to project whipped up last minute.

 

As far as the environment goes, I think we will be MUCH better off with whichever candidate gets elected. :)

 

6) Consistency- None there. Look at democratic campaign to prez. campaign.

 

Politicians are consistent in one way: inconsistency.

McCain is no better, and is arguably worse.

 

7) Allegiance- I don't take the campaigning in another country likely. I think if he wants to run for World president he needs to go take it up with the UN.

 

:lol:

I'm hoping he'll end our virtual boycott of the UN.

 

8) Vice President- I think he is an a**hole and his track record makes me want to throw up.

 

So you're saying he's a good politician. :hihi:

9) Strength- i don't think he has the cohunas to deal with Russia and that makes me very nervous right now.

 

I can guarantee you that Palin doesn't have the cahones. :hihi:

Bush doesn't Either. I'd take a firm Obama over a stammering McCain anyday in this regard.

10) He looks to good in a speedo to be a president :):hyper::hyper::hyper:

 

Jealousy should not be a demerit. ;)

[paigetheoracle]

I only caught part of Palin's speech, but other than Juliani giving Obama some overkill negativity, I have been impressed by the repubs approach. Palin will come in unexperienced, just as Obama would, but she'll be trained by a former vet. If once a POW that made it back, I find it tough to criticize McCain.

 

Obama is very intelligent and I disagree with Juliani that he never led anything. He has made some lives better in Illinois, but I don't see enough to vote for him.

 

McCain will keep us involved in the Middle East wars and now with Russia getting itchy trigger fingers and the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists kicking the clock up two more minutes to 11:55pm, I'd want a military mind in office.

 

The innovations will flourish more in times of war than in times of US peace. This is a tough recommendation for me to make because I'm an old hippy and flower child promoting peace. I'm also a democrat. Even with alternative energy sources, one of which I'm exploring, we will still need oil. I prefer a person who will continue to fight for American oil supplies along with the innovations.

 

I reiterate that Obama is talented, but I don't feel comfortable with the idea of him being in the oval office. We need someone who can rid the country of the KKK, the Weathermen, the Black Panthers, the Latin Kings, etc. before ethnic differences will survive in so much absolute power. It's bad enough that nuclear war could be brewing, I don't waqnt to allow the possibility of a racial civil war here in America.

 

Dr. C.

 

Sorry to come back at you after such a long break but if I lived in America, I would want somebody in power during a political crisis, not who was used to war but could handle peace. McCain has been charged with being erratic and George Bush is clearly insane (Power mad with no concern for the consequences upon others because he's not doing the actual fighting himself, just expecting others to) and with Palin behind him, I can only see dire trouble ahead if they get in (Obama may be too soft, compared to Hillary Clinton but she's gone and Palin just wants to make a name for herself like Bush did, no matter the body count in Iraq or elsewhere).

[Grains]

Please explain (with factual references).

 

 

No. Sorry I WILL post facts for things that are unusual or would draw a curious eye but if you don't know this for yourself your going to have to go do a little research for yourself. How long have we had a deficit????

 

What do you not buy into?

 

I don't buy into the crap like neo-liberal or neo-conservative. It's crap. It is liberal and its conservative. It was not a personal remark towards Reason or anyone else, a lot of these terms like this (neo-hippie, western world, neo-marxism, BARF!!!. I just hate all this crap the world comes out with. Liberal and Conservative are what defines it today. No reason to ADD the word NEO and wrap it in a pretty package. It's just so stupid. Sorry just an issue I hate and am dealing with through therapy!!! Sorry this really is something I just hate and has nothing to do with anything so just let it go. Ill start a thread on this one day when I have the patience! :) It's personal !!!! :):hyper::hyper:

 

It seems that you are basing this solely on the last 8 years. Even so, the president can propose war actions, being the Commander in Chief. That's a pretty big power that's been used by the present administration.

 

i would like to clarify something. I was wrong. Veto's have been used much more than I thought. I guess I was viewing major issues. Thank god for you and me he did in regards to war actions. One day you will see. I guarantee it :) (You will get the humor of this when you read below) And by the way, congress did to.

 

As well, people, please don't respond to me about this war stuff. I don't care about your opinion on Bush and the war just as well as you don't care about mine so just don't touch this. I refuse to have 8 pages worth of argument on war which segues away from the topic and moderators have to come in and break people apart and possibly (me saying something really stupid ;)) and all that crap. It's not going to happen. Or at least with me its not. If you try to connect war to McCain/Palin/Republican and being Bush in panties or something I will not respond as well.

 

Logic tied to Whoopie Goldberg/female clothing/strippers/ and other things of that nature will not be touched by me as well. Simply for that old rule. I am bad with quotes. I saw Modest help somebody earlier so maybe he can help me to because I am bad at this quote stuff. Something about be careful arguing with a fool because it is hard to tell who the fool is. Modest, please help :)

 

Presidential Vetoes

 

 

Obama might be considered inexperienced, but at least he's been on Capitol Hill for a little while. Reagen, the actor president, would receive the same criticism today. Why can actors get elected under the Republican platform without much resistance, but democratic Senators are imediately trumped as inexperienced?

 

Your comparing Reagen to Obama now....wow.

 

Actors without much resistance.....HAH!!!

 

Democratic senator imdeiately trumped as inexperienced. Freeztar, Obama has less experience then any presidential candidate we have had. Yes, that constitutes a trump! Really, are you arguing this one! Really!

 

 

If Obama is elected, he will have to forge connections - same with McCain. Corruption is inherent in Us politics as far as I can tell, regardless of party affiliation.

 

McCain has bipartisan relationships and a history. Obama does not, well ok, 1.

 

"While the senator's rhetoric certainly speaks of post-partisan unity, his record lacks the supporting substance. This is well demonstrated by a recent appearance on Fox News. When Chris Wallace challenged him to name an example of reaching across party lines, Obama could only name his February 2005 vote for the Class Action Fairness Act (CAFA), which passed the Senate 72-26. But if this is his example of bipartisan support, it leaves much to be desired."

 

The rest of the article is great read on.

 

AEI - Short Publications - How Bipartisan Is Obama?

 

You're kidding right?

Obama is very eloquent in his speaking. Bush is so bad that there's even a phrase invented for it, bushism.

 

Seriously! Bush might look like a deer in headlights and stutter but at least he can get through his speech without wasting time and not even knowing what to say.

 

YouTube - Obama can't talk without reading a script http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1s6ld271Dk

 

 

As far as the environment goes, I think we will be MUCH better off with whichever candidate gets elected. :)

 

Well it wasn't better off with Clinton!

 

Clinton Environmental Record Justifies Criticism - The Tech

 

The environmentalist swing to the liberal side for reasons unapparent except for "Big Oil" and the media. Many conservatives are doing great things with the environment. Just like not all liberals want to tax people or not all liberals are evil blood hounds sent from hell (:):lol:;)). All of you please look into Republican Environmental Contributions. All I am asking is for a look. The media has painted a pretty picture but don't let it manipulate your thought. You don't have to like it and you can come up with a hundred reasons not to like it but just know it is there and it is happening it just wouldn't be fair to give attention to it, or at least the media feels that way. You are correct though. Both parties suck at it. That is why it needs to be in private hands!!!

 

Republicans for Environmental Protection

 

Do I hear CNN on your channels!!!

 

I know you can find a thousand things against republicans and environment just like I can democrats and environment. Just please do some research. There is some good out there.

 

 

I can guarantee you that Palin doesn't have the cahones. :hihi:

Bush doesn't Either. I'd take a firm Obama over a stammering McCain anyday in this regard.

 

 

ROFL

 

Even democrats have come out and said it is a sad day for the democrats because of Russia. I welcome your gurantee and accept it. I now hold the Freeztar personal gurantee. A gurantee should not be use loosely. We shall see come debate time if your gurantee is guaranteed! I will hold you to this one. :):):)

 

Jealousy should not be a demerit. ;)

 

 

:doh::doh::doh:

I just hate that he fist bumps and looks good in a speedo!

(People who don't understand me, I am just trying to lighten up heated issues after a debate/post/whatever and I hope you play along. Freeztar understands this and it is good to maintain compassion, laughter and fellowship if we want to get through this.) Or at least I think so.

:hihi::hyper::hihi:

[7DSUSYstrings]

To some degree, I wonder why I get involved with political discussions and on a science forum to boot. The BOTAS has kicked the nuclear clock up 2 more minutes since we first invaded Iraq. I don't think it matters too much who gets elected, we have war to deal with. If McCain is in the war is in the M.E.; If Obama is in, the war is on our doorsteps, if not a civil war because the KKK shot the guy, then the M.E. war comes back to us while we're entertaining the illusion of fixing an economy that isn't broken. What's broken is American motivation. Unmotivated people will be our undoing. Everyone looks for handouts while the remaining few motivated of us look for work. Work isn't that hard to find; good workers are...

[Zythryn]

No. Sorry I WILL post facts for things that are unusual or would draw a curious eye but if you don't know this for yourself your going to have to go do a little research for yourself. How long have we had a deficit????

 

The confusion may come over the term 'deficit'.

There was no ANNUAL deficit when Bush came to office. As a matter of fact, there was an annual surplus.

While there was a long term deficit when Bush came to office is was shrinking at that time. Since then it has grown, by a lot.

[questor]

To Modest.. how much science is involved in subjective discussions? How can the same rules apply to something scientifically proveable with mathematical

equations and a view that evolves from many conversations, observations, and reading over the years? How can one provide links to prove everthing he has read or observed on television or radio? If you are going to have free speech, is everything that isn't compatible with your views to be considered inflammatory? If this site is to be just a science site, the rules can be restrictive. If one cannot express views that may be argumentive so that different perspectives can be aired, then the non-scientific portions of the site should be closed to all but those that have the same view. I notice that some people continually demand links to prove certain points and will not avail themselves of public information to learn more about the subject at hand. We are not all of equal age and life experience. We have not all walked in the same path or possess the same powers of observation. We are not robots, we have different opinions. There is a difference in inflammatory rhetoric and vigorous debate. I would hope the moderators of this site understand the benefits of free speech.

[Zythryn]

Questor, when asked for clarification you refuse to provide it.

What is wrong with asking you WHY you believe some of your points are the liberal viewpoint? I am not looking for scientific 'proof' I just wanted to know why you are under that impression.

I would appreciate it, since this is off topic, if you would resubmit your points in a new thread. Or perhaps one of our moderators could split it off into a thread of its own.

[questor]

Z, why does anyone believe anything? I am considerably older than you and have had considerably more experience. I have had many varieties of jobs and have traveled extensively. I have lived through many presidencies and have observed the consequences of ther policies. I have observed different people with different personalities and how their attitudes impacted their lives.

I strongly believe a person's future is in his own hands, and is not a function of government. As you get older and have more life experiences, you may alter your currently held beliefs also most people do.

[questor]

I do not want to beat a dead horse, but in answer to some questions on my post # 106 about Liberal Logic I would like to speak to one of the statements:

''It is OK for Clinton to have sex in the oval office because Larry Craig solicited sex in a toilet stall.''

President Bill Clinton had a sexual encounter in the Oval office. He lied about it before a national TV audience. He remained in office and finished his term.

Repub. Rep. Mark Foley sent sexually suggestive emails to interns. He was forced to resign his seat.

Repub. Sen. Larry Craig made sexual overtures in an airport bathroom, was convicted of disorderly conduct and lost his committee seat and is shunned by his fellow senators.

Democrat Sen. Barney Frank paid for sex with Gobie and Gobie moved in with him to run a male prostitution ring from Frank's townhouse.

Neither Frank nor Clinton lost their job or suffered great censure from the liberals, while the much lesser crimes of the two Republicans have been severely punished. Where is the fairness here ? Does this show that Democrats do not believe in punishing their own?

As far as the rest of the statements in post #106, people can only speak for themselves. I do not believe every liberal or conservative believes exactly alike on all subjects, but I invite anyone to comment on a specific in the post.

[Moontanman]

I think that all Conservatives are small minded, selfish, vindictive, ignorant people who would rather assume they are always correct and will ignore any and all evidence to the contrary to uphold their belief in their superiority. :)

 

Why can I say this, because it's what I believe and evidently in this thread I am not required to justify anything I say with any supporting information at all. :doh:

 

Someone needs to get their collective **** together, this thread has degenerated into a **** slinging fest with no real connecting with reality. If you claim something you need to be able to back it up with some sort of supporting information. If not my post belongs here just as much as anyone else's.

[Zythryn]

Last comment on this thread addressing this.

...but I invite anyone to comment on a specific in the post.

Except me, right?:)

I have already commented on a specific in your post, yet you continue to ignore it. Lets start that in another thread, as it is off topic in this one.

[jackson33]

Thanks jackson! WOW who'da thought it, I knew I was doing something wrong! File income taxes, Wow, reality what a concept:doh:

 

My comment was informational, not intended to accuse you of anything. Many people, especially low income, people on SS, disability or some welfare program are not required to file US Tax Returns. The Federal Government (the Tax payers) spent a great deal of money to make the point, these rebates were going to distributed on this years filing or a special form (forget number) and that if not done, the system would not work. I assume, one reason was sending out those checks to people that have died since the 2007 returns or have entered the work force since...

 

On you most recent post; The vast majority of people in the US have common interest, do not consider Liberal or Conservative ideology an issue, or for that matter study the issues before voting. Both major parties know this and are directing comments toward those in the middle, those with a specific issue or actually are independent, voting on issues.

 

People on this thread, or for that matter this forum are expressing mild comments to what you will find on Political Forums or Blogs. I think you will find or IMO, people have different ideas on how to reach in many cases, the same outcome. Conservatives do not want war, do not want folks going with out the basics, do want discussion on Global warming, health care, education, taxes, energy conservation or any issue discussed here, just as liberals or anything in between or under any name (Democrat/Republican).

 

While I agree with you, its not easy to find 'back up' on personal opinions, the Moderator seems to be concerned with the direction or intent of some of the comments. The problem is we have a Black Man, a white woman that has been dissed and one newcomer, generating tremendous interest this cycle and in doing so many issue we can no longer talked about publicly but are issues to many folks.

[questor]

Z, good for you. Go ahead and start your new thread. Be sure you make no comments without having scientific backup. I'll be happy to talk to you.

[questor]

Moon, great post. Good to know how you really feel about conservatives. I assume sometime in your life you were treated poorly by Republicans and you have lumped them all in the same barrel?

Now, if the moderators are consistent, you will be punished for making a ''snarky'' comment.

As far as I am concerned, I am more interested in learning why someone would feel the way you do than punishing you. Could you tell how the liberals have helped you while the R's were holding you down?