Justification for war in Afghanistan

[BrianG]

Mohandes Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. were fighting against an enemy that respects individual rights, the Taliban and Al Qaeda don't. The Soviet, North Korean and Iranian Ghandi's and King's were executed.

 

Only violence could stop Hitler and Tojo, violence stops violence. People never change.

[sanctus]

Only violence could stop Hitler

I replied already to this:

This is not the speech I was refferring to, I like it less and it is not a good argument, anyway. When the US came to Europe against the nazi, I agree that there was no more a choice of a non-violent option, but what many forget before there was. The signs were there! For example have you seen "The Dictator" by Charlie Chaplin? It was turned in 1939...

violence stops violence.

You spoke yourself about Ghandi, also non-violence stops violence. And ok, in Germany in the long run it worked, violence stopped violence. But what about Kosovo? Still problems there between serbians and Albanians...What about Israel and Palestina? No act of violence on both(!) sides ever stopped the violence so far...What about IRA? It seems to have stopped now that both sides stopped violence...What about Afghanistan? Seems still pretty violent to me...

 

The list is much longer, but it should show that violence stopping violence is the big exeption...

[coldcreation]

...also non-violence stops violence. And ok, in Germany in the long run it worked, violence stopped violence. [...] What about Israel and Palestina? No act of violence on both(!) sides ever stopped the violence so far...

 

The list is much longer, but it should show that violence stopping violence is the big exeption...

 

You neglect to mention that negotiations have not stopped violence either in the example you provide above.

 

CC

[lemit]

You neglect to mention that negotiations have not stopped violence either in the example you provide above.

 

CC

 

Negotiations punctuated by violence aren't generally very successful.

 

--lemit

[BrianG]

...You spoke yourself about Ghandi, also non-violence stops violence. And ok, in Germany in the long run it worked, violence stopped violence. But what about Kosovo? Still problems there between serbians and Albanians...What about Israel and Palestina? No act of violence on both(!) sides ever stopped the violence so far...What about IRA? It seems to have stopped now that both sides stopped violence...What about Afghanistan? Seems still pretty violent to me...

 

The list is much longer, but it should show that violence stopping violence is the big exeption...

 

I said non violence stops violence when struggling against a foe that believes in justice and individual rights. As a rule, "Si vis pacem, parati para bellum", if you want peace, prepare for war .Si vis pacem, para bellum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia We live in a world ruled by the naked use of force. Non violence is the exception, rather than the rule.

[sanctus]

don't you see that this is an evil circle? And in most cases where force was used it didn't solve much (see my examples in the preceeding post).

A part from WWII can you give me an example where force and violence stopped force and violence?

 

 

In case, here is the evil circle ;-) :

We live in a world ruled by naked force because people believe that force is the only answer to a world ruled by naked force because people believe that force is the only answer to a world ruled by naked force because people believe that force is the only

answer to a world ruled by naked force because people believe that force is the only answer to a world ruled by naked force because people believe that force is the only

[BrianG]

don't you see that this is an evil circle? And in most cases where force was used it didn't solve much (see my examples in the preceeding post).

A part from WWII can you give me an example where force and violence stopped force and violence?

 

The American Civil War ended slavery.

The Korean War saved the South Korean people from the tyranny of the North.

The Liberation of Kuwait saved the Kuwaiti people from Saddam Hussein's rape rooms.

NATO's force stopped Soviet aggression into Europe and won the cold war.

[sanctus]

Ok in order:

 

1) Ok, now it is just at another level (like egality), but I have to admit with as much as I know of US-history it is an example.

 

2) I don't call this a stopping of violence because as long as there are concentration camps in north korea(se eg. thisvideo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW2sReWDyHI)which where not there before the war it makes things worse. I'm also skeptic if it would have become a tiranny, wikipedia is really good on this. REad the chapter Korea divided here. In my understanding there should have been elections no1 wanted to let the Koreans vote though, so it started to get out of hand. This actually a typical example of where negotiations and respecting them would have gone really far.

 

3) Back to what discussed already, then why waited 25 years with Afghanistan...this may have been the result, but it was not the reason...so in my view not usable as an example where violence stopped the violence.

 

4)Ok, on this it would get too long....

[Essay]

The American Civil War ended slavery.

The Korean War saved the South Korean people from the tyranny of the North.

The Liberation of Kuwait saved the Kuwaiti people from Saddam Hussein's rape rooms.

NATO's force stopped Soviet aggression into Europe and won the cold war.

 

Haven't you heard of Economic Slavery?

"The Korean War saved the South Korean people..." to be as safe and secure as they are today?

Did you believe that line about "throwing babies out of incubators," or ...substituted US rape rooms?

NATO? I thought BinLaden conquered the Soviets. Have you heard his take on the subject?

 

~ :rolleyes:

[BrianG]

Haven't you heard of Economic Slavery?

 

Does that include kidnapping, whips and chains like real slavery? I don't believe economic slavery is anything like the evil of real slavery, your citation mentions Barak Obama, Dr. King, Bayard Rustin, Stokley Carmichael, Malcolm X, Marcus Garvey, Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. Dubois, are they economic slaves?

 

Can you substantiate your claim of US rape rooms? Are there concentration camps in South Korea? Does Bin Laden have as much credibility as Reuters, AP and the BBC, did he do more than NATO in the cold ware

[sanctus]

Really short: Result of economic slavery: third world. Worse than slavery in common historic sense? Yes, more people die and suffer...

[alexander]

i have missed a bit of the discussion, but i will try to catch up, interesting how this thread took off recently... anyways

 

But what about Kosovo?

oh yeah, speaking of kosovo, here is a good example where the so-perceived "good" UN and US killing thousands of innocent people in order to do their "good" bidding. Ask anyone who escaped the area at that time, they were scared more of NATO bombers then serbs, because carpet bombing of cities does that to people, you know... Now i don't mean to say that carpet bombing is not a good solution to some problems, but carpet bombing a territory on which only 6% of the population are the guys you are "defending" the rest 94% from, that should be a war crime...

 

al-Quaeda's purpose on 9-11 was to engage the U.S. in a land war in Afghanistan so they could bankrupt and eventually destroy us the way we helped them destroy the Soviet Union. By planning to stay there indefinitely instead of pursuing the terrorists, we are doing exactly what they want.

Soviet Union basically destroyed itself (you shoulda been there) the war just sped it up a little, i think even the US was confused when USSR fell apart... Hell, USSR was...

did he do more than NATO in the cold war

Well that's a weird question, did the US do more then the Soviet Union in WWII? How do you quantify something with 2 points of reference that far apart? Bin Laden was a field general in Russo-Afghan war, and do you really think that that was what broke the Union?

Can you substantiate your claim of US rape rooms?

Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does that include kidnapping, whips and chains like real slavery?

Have you ever lived in a country that was cut off from the world by trade sanctions... When you have mass starvation, mass breakouts of deadly diseases and municipal systems failing, slavery may not be something that may seem like a worse place to be. At least in egypt, slaves were fairly well cared for (and no, no slaves were used in building the pyramids)

 

Also keep on talking about wars US is fighting for "good cause", what about wars they have created, what about Iran, what about upsetting the balance of that whole region to begin with in the 70s because US decided they didn't like the people's choice in government, what about shoving democracy down people's troats that don't want to be democratic, like what, we know better?

 

throwing babies out of incubators

I dunno, like i said, they weren't against it when they were training the troops and providing free weapons for Georgian invasion of South Ossetia; directly resulting in mass genocide, war crimes, bombing hospitals...

[BrianG]

...

oh yeah, speaking of kosovo, here is a good example where the so-perceived "good" UN and US killing thousands of innocent people in order to do their "good" bidding. Ask anyone who escaped the area at that time, they were scared more of NATO bombers then serbs, because carpet bombing of cities does that to people, you know... Now i don't mean to say that carpet bombing is not a good solution to some problems, but carpet bombing a territory on which only 6% of the population are the guys you are "defending" the rest 94% from, that should be a war crime...

 

Can you cite a reference to carpet bombings in Kosovo?

 

...Well that's a weird question, did the US do more then the Soviet Union in WWII? How do you quantify something with 2 points of reference that far apart? Bin Laden was a field general in Russo-Afghan war, and do you really think that that was what broke the Union?

 

America didn't do more to win against Hitler, far more Soviets died protecting there country. On the other hand, America didn't sign a nonaggression pact with Hitler, like Stalin.

 

You call Abu Ghraib, US rape rooms? People were convicted for those crimes, there was no rape.

 

...Have you ever lived in a country that was cut off from the world by trade sanctions... When you have mass starvation, mass breakouts of deadly diseases and municipal systems failing, slavery may not be something that may seem like a worse place to be. At least in egypt, slaves were fairly well cared for (and no, no slaves were used in building the pyramids)...

 

I was in Iraq immediately after Operation Desert storm and in Zagreb when the UN was enforcing the "no fly zone". I saw convoys of trailer trucks taking food and medicine to those in need.

 

I've never seen people defend slavery or pass it off as an economic condition like folks on this thread. You don't think slavery is evil?

[modest]

Negotiations punctuated by violence aren't generally very successful.

 

It would be interesting to look historically at which resolutions to war led to longer average times of peace—total surrender or armistice.

 

~modest

[alexander]

Can you cite a reference to carpet bombings in Kosovo?

Here you go

 

America didn't do more to win against Hitler, far more Soviets died protecting there country. On the other hand, America didn't sign a nonaggression pact with Hitler, like Stalin.

Once again, you are comparing apples to metallurgy. Stalin signed the pact so he was free to attack Finland without worrying about an assault from Germany, and was mistaken on both, not worrying until too late, and on attacking Finland after his "cleanup" of the officer staff... outside of the scope of this discussion, but you can't judge something as bad if you don't know why it happened...

 

You call Abu Ghraib, US rape rooms? People were convicted for those crimes, there was no rape.

Oh, so its ok to starve, rape and torture your prisoners, because you think they were doing that for Sadam, i was of a different opinion about the US judicial system...

 

Zagreb when the UN was enforcing the "no fly zone"

Do you know how much food it takes to feed 800,000 people (that is the population of Zagreb)? To give you an idea, about 300,000 German troops locked in the ring at Stalingrad, required a minimum of 800 tons of supplies daily, mostly of food to survive, so say even 600 tons of food, thats about 1500 or so tons for 800k people in Zagreb, on trucks, if we use something like m35 it would be about 600 trucks, daily, pretty tall order, do you think NATO delivered?

 

I've never seen people defend slavery or pass it off as an economic condition like folks on this thread.

I'm not defending slavery, i am not claiming that its an economic condition, i am not saying that i support slavery, or that i think human suffering of any kind is right, unless it was of their own doing ofcourse...

[BrianG]

Here you go

 

Looks like a bogus claim, according to your source:

"Towards the end of the war, it was claimed that carpet bombing by B-52 aircraft had caused huge casualties among Yugoslav troops stationed along the Kosovo–Albania border. Careful searching by NATO investigators found no evidence of any such large-scale casualties."

 

 

Once again, you are comparing apples to metallurgy. Stalin signed the pact so he was free to attack Finland without worrying about an assault from Germany, and was mistaken on both, not worrying until too late, and on attacking Finland after his "cleanup" of the officer staff... outside of the scope of this discussion, but you can't judge something as bad if you don't know why it happened...

And I thought it was for Poland to eventually fall into Soviet hands after the war.

 

 

Oh, so its ok to starve, rape and torture your prisoners, because you think they were doing that for Sadam, i was of a different opinion about the US judicial system...

The US tried and imprisoned the people who abused prisoners, Sadam gave his rapists birthday presents.

 

Do you know how much food it takes to feed 800,000 people (that is the population of Zagreb)? To give you an idea, about 300,000 German troops locked in the ring at Stalingrad, required a minimum of 800 tons of supplies daily, mostly of food to survive, so say even 600 tons of food, thats about 1500 or so tons for 800k people in Zagreb, on trucks, if we use something like m35 it would be about 600 trucks, daily, pretty tall order, do you think NATO delivered?

 

I didn't see starvation in Zagreb, the restaurants were open and the food and beer was good. I was surprised they preferred Deutsche Marks to Dollars, they had horrible inflation. The trucks were headed from Croatia into Kosovo, I only saw them leave full and return empty. The US ran a small MASH hospital treating UN troops at the Zagreb airport.

[alexander]

"Towards the end of the war, it was claimed that carpet bombing by B-52 aircraft had caused huge casualties among Yugoslav troops stationed along the Kosovo–Albania border. Careful searching by NATO investigators found no evidence of any such large-scale casualties.

This doesn't say that there were no carpet bombings of towns, that says that there were no large scale Yugoslav troop casualties as a result of carpet bombings... Please read more carefully

And I thought it was for Poland to eventually fall into Soviet hands after the war.

USSR was given 1/2 of Poland after it was invaded by Germans, but that was to "soften" the relationships, i mean if someone invades mexico, don't you think that us would build up right on that border and possibly take proactive actions?

I guess it was a way to get back at Poland for their constant pre 18th century military actions in/against imperial Russia and attempting, on more then one occasion, to overthrow the tzar families and take control.

I didn't see starvation in Zagreb, the restaurants were open and the food and beer was good. I was surprised they preferred Deutsche Marks to Dollars, they had horrible inflation. The trucks were headed from Croatia into Kosovo, I only saw them leave full and return empty. The US ran a small MASH hospital treating UN troops at the Zagreb airport.

That's great, i mean its good to hear that sometimes US complies with the modern day war standards, it still does not justify the violence...