The Most Important Election of Our Lives

[jackson33]

It seems to me you have not read the book, so if that is the case then your comment on its content is moot. :phones:

 

Thought you were agreeing with Mr. Wood, was replying to you not him and my concerns are todays lobbyist, their value and condemnation received for doing what I feel is a worthy cause.

 

I did read 'Creation of the American Republic', think he wrote, but was years ago. I am also aware of his credentials and is a respected author on American History. Gingrich, I believe has mentioned him many times in admiration. However, from what I recall, I questioned him then and would probably do so now. Not all historian feel the founders were a bunch of Englishmen looking to shove it to the crown or were motivated in ways to feather their own caps. I have read '1776 & John Adams' by McCullough and several other versions of what was in the 18th century, politically and culturally, but formed my opinions generally from the writing of those that lived then...sorry that doesn't satisfy you.

[freeztar]

Nothing beats actually reading the book I must say.

 

Thanks for the reading recommendation Turtle. That looks like a good book to read. I browsed through the study guide a bit and the point that stuck out at me the most was that the colonists were indeed very British. It's an obvious point, but one that I think is often overlooked in our education system. We all know about the rebellious behavior of the colonists and their separationists attempts to abandon the "mother land", but very little emphasis is put on the fact that in reality, they were Brits. The monarchy was very much embedded in them. Again, it's obvious taken at face value, but to study their every decision, it becomes paramount I would think. Looks like I'll have to pick up the book and do some back and forth with the ol' eyes.

 

Oh wait, what topic? :doh: :hihi:

 

I think this election is indeed very important, but what comes after it is what is most important. I don't know about you guys, but I'm ready for a breath of fresh air.

[Turtle]

Roger Jacksonia & Freeztaria. :hihi: Ya gotta let it out Captain! (the held breath that is. :doh:)

Anyway, to Jackson's point on the book, it is pointless to discuss its merits if we both haven't read it. Part of its merit is that Woods researched personal papers of the Founders previously untapped and quotes them frequently as the basis for his opinions. Another day then perhaps.

 

Freezter, agreed that the real work is to come after the election. Just was listening to Tom Brockaw & Charlie Rose and Tom mentioned that in the deabte he moderated there was a question from a 78 year old lady who had lived throught the depression and she pointed out that no one today is sacrificing anything or even considering it is part of the solution. Tom said McCain dodged it completely & Obama talked briefly about service. Tom went on to say he would have liked to hear Barack say while looking in the camera, you the American people need to sit down tonight as families and plan a stategy to reduce your energy consumption by 20% in 6 months.

 

Indeed. I don't think we need too, less so should, wait for the election to conclude before we get to work on that idea all on our own. Not so optomistic am I, given that people are spending nearly 5 Billion dollars on Halloween this year, an increase over last.

 

PS You'll love the book. Those Deist Founders really got up to some tricks in their private associations I'll tell ya.

[Qfwfq]

It is in fact as old as the constitution.

Actually it is older than the US constitution. Down through history, governance has always been a matter of sorting out interests, with cases ranging from forcing the interests of some on everybody, all the way through to working out a compromise. In the most typical cases the ruling class rallied around their king, pledging allegiance and pleading for their interests. Kings usually had to keep a balance, so as not to loose support. Democracies, in the various forms, are simply an alternative and make it harder for tyranny to come into place and, until quite recent times, usually did not imply universal suffrage.

 

I can hardly concieve that Jefferson and co. weren't expecting people to come forward seeking to have their interests catered for.

[Turtle]

Actually it is older than the US constitution. Down through history, governance has always been a matter of sorting out interests, with cases ranging from forcing the interests of some on everybody, all the way through to working out a compromise. In the most typical cases the ruling class rallied around their king, pledging allegiance and pleading for their interests. Kings usually had to keep a balance, so as not to loose support. Democracies, in the various forms, are simply an alternative and make it harder for tyranny to come into place and, until quite recent times, usually did not imply universal suffrage.

 

I can hardly concieve that Jefferson and co. weren't expecting people to come forward seeking to have their interests catered for.

 

I grant you the first paragraph and refer you to Wood's Radicalism of the American Revolution to decide if I overstated the case.

 

Election day is underway. Gonna be a long one. :D

[HydrogenBond]

Part of what makes progressive change difficult is both parties don't except responsibility for their blunders, because politics works better if you don't admit anything, but blame the other guy. The current economic crisis was influenced by both parties. Here is the democrats role. We already know the republican role.

 

There were two key influences. The first was the democrat push for affordable housing. What the affordable housing initiative did was open the free market up to make affordable loans. The reason the democrats didn't sound the alarm early, was these changes indirectly gave them what they wanted. Anyone could get a loan for a house, with no money down and low payments for many years. Before this initiative, the free market was stingier with unsecured loans. In that climate, the goal of affordable housing could never be realized without a huge government hand-out. The free market compromise offered a way to do this without adding new taxes. This was republican influenced.

 

What was suppose to happen, the new type of house loan, would increase the demand for housing while also making it available to almost anyone. Based on supply and demand two things would happen. First, the price would go up. This allowed everyone to build instant equity so when the terms of the loan changed they could refinance. The demand for housing would also stimulate the economy, especially the housing industry. This would create middle and lower class jobs due to the increase demand for skilled and unskilled labor. With these new jobs, people could now afford the payments and all would be good.

 

The Democrat blunder that helped messed it up, was supporting the illegal aliens. Although it was nice they had jobs, it took jobs away from Americans who needed that job and that money to pay their loans. The democrats actually benefitted businesses, such as builders, but not the labor pool with the housing commitment. The American laborer, who had his little house for the first time lost his job. The builder who could pay much less for the same job, had record profits.

 

The problem that was created, many people bought homes based on projected earnings in the expanding housing economy. Once the wages fell due to cheap labor, many of these same people were now overextended. They had to take a pay cut to keep jobs, with the commitment already there. This hit unskilled labor the hardest being displaced by the cheaper unskilled Mexican labor.

 

Once the loans began to come due for the payment change, many were unable to meet their commitment. This put more houses for sale causing prices to fall and builder profits to lower. The push by builders was even more cheap labor, a further drop in wages and more losses of jobs by people with the housing commitment, etc.

 

The democratic push to affordable housing got the ball rolling. But this may have worked in the free market. It is not clear what would have happened in the hypothetical case of not having 10M extra low wage workers in the workforce. This would have kept wages higher, sort of like a union. This would have cause housing prices to go a bit higher for more equity. This would have made refinance easier and might have delayed the problem, allowing more time for adjustment in the free market. Once the housing market collapse and loans defaulted the rest was sort of inevitable. I am not against the illegal aliens. Just at that time, we were building a house of cards that did not plan in this variable.

[jackson33]

Anytime government becomes in charge of some social issue, that system out of necessity will fail. In 1978, when Fanny was privatized to allow their debt to be dropped from the national budget and inject public money into the system (Stock) is was doomed to failure. BOTH parties and the investors were and are to blame.

 

When Reagan got his Immigration Reform Act passed, with a National declining population (purchasing power) it added 4-8 million new people to the economic package, off setting the added cost of Johnson's Welfare Programs and resulting mandates to drop requirements for afford ability. In short this one action (Amnesty) created the economy that built up over the past 30 years, with an added illegal migration of an additional 12-20 million. Then during the 90's we had the 'age of electronics' and all it included to add to an economy.

 

In 2000 we had that Tech Bubble burst, with the added cost of 9-11, then two wars and I have no idea how many 'Natural Disasters' which have taken on almost a new form of welfare and almost free financing for several years to hold these programs together. IMO, the feather that broke the camels back and not completed was the discouragement of maintaining that 12-20 million into the system and the effort to add value to the US dollar around the world. Interest Rates increased, housing slowed and those already in it were being hit with added cost (adjustable arms, local taxes and extremely high commodity cost-repairs) which had been spreading to new people rather than adding to the current.

 

I could go on, but my point is there have been many administrations, many Congress's, many individuals involved, not to mention the real expenses that have now caught up with government...SS/Medicade/Medicare/General Welfare and now even the National Debt Interest must be considered.

 

The problem today is a cure, which no one has any idea what to do, including either of the Political Parties or the current government and the public is wanting more and more of less and less a total projected pie. The Federal revenue for 2009, will be 500 Billion short on just 'Capital Gains' and be effected by lost housing values or declining profits of business. Loss is a carry over item from year to year and will effect tax returns by most everyone for year to come, where City/State/Federal Taxes will either be increased or some major project slowed or canceled. That 3 Trillion dollar US market loss of the 6 Trillion world wide, is already in the system and if even possible, the markets recovered today, those loses a matter of record. The current 15% or Obama's 30% capital gains tax will net nothing in 2009 revenues and short of a miracle to change the trends will be reduced for years to come, maybe holding on to when SS or Health Care Federal Cost take there turn.

 

Having made my rant and to the thread; The apparent desire from the American People is for more government. The nominations of McCain and Obama, neither really conservative had indicated this and the apparent Obama victory will solidify this opinion. There won't be a "New Deal II" or "National Health Care Program" and Taxes will increase not only for the wealthy (lost investment power) but every one in some manner and all those State and Local programs will take what little is left. We can and probably will have another amnesty, but the quality of those involved has already dropped or returned to where ever and those remaining, the poorest and will just join in with the current long evolving welfare dependent class.

[goku]

In relation to this election, please do advise how this Nation became all it has to Americans and in turn the world.

 

If you some how saying people in the US are somehow all degenerates, or don't meet the World view standards, please do advise how you formed that opinion.

 

this nation was built by God. the further from God it gets the worse things will get: murder, stealling, corruption.....

 

i don't think their all degenerates

and i don't care about the world view

[Turtle]

The most important election of our lives is over and President Elect Obama has his work cut out for us. :rolleyes:

[Pyrotex]

The most important election of our lives is over and President Elect Obama has his work cut out for us. :)

In that case, it sure is a good thing that he WON the election. That'll make his work a little easier.

:)

[Ganoderma]

He ain't in yet, bush & Co. still have a couple months of scheming to do....who knows whats next.