Creation of the Universe...or Not

[questor]

Moon, I enjoyed your brane explanation, but what I'm really trying to find out if cause and effect is the nature of the universe or if things just occur with no cause. I'm not interested at this point in theoretical possibilities that have not been proved or tested. If you know any instances of something occurring without cause, shoot it to me. I'm already familiar with Schrodinger's cat, which I find a silly supposition.

[Moontanman]

Moon, I enjoyed your brane explanation, but what I'm really trying to find out if cause and effect is the nature of the universe or if things just occur with no cause. I'm not interested at this point in theoretical possibilities that have not been proved or tested. If you know any instances of something occurring without cause, shoot it to me. I'm already familiar with Schrodinger's cat, which I find a silly supposition.

 

Questor, you would first have to define what you mean by cause. Atomic decay (Schroedinger's cat is basically atomic decay) is totally random but it has a cause, unstable isotopes, I honestly do not ascribe to the "something happening with out a cause" school of thought. Just because we do not have access to information that would give us a cause for something doesn't mean there wasn't one. No supernatural being is required just ignorance of the cause. Even random events can be assigned a cause, during WW2 a man fell out of a high flying bomber from about 25 thousand feet and survived with no parachute. some would say the cause of him surviving was divine but I would say it was random luck, but the cause of his survival was hitting the side of a mountain covered with snow pine tree limbs and the maximum speed a body can fall at. these things came together to allow something to happen that shouldn't be possible. So i really can't say anything happens without a cause.

[HydrogenBond]

There are phenomena that can be described as affect, cause and affect. The result is an affect appearing before the cause that produces the affect. Let me give an example.

 

Picture a siphon that is a rubber tube with one end dipped into a glass of water and the other end below the bottom of the glass. The siphon works by gravity. If we track any water molecule in the glass it goes up the hump and down the other side. If we look at it logically, all the water in the glass will gain gravitational potential to get up and over the siphon hump. Without adding any net energy, beyond what is already in the glass (original potential energy in the glass) we can make all the water in the glass defy gravity and gain energy up the siphon hump. (magic).

 

The affect is a water molecule in the glass, gaining energy to defy gravity from a cause that happens later, farther down the siphon, which is other water that have already gone over the hump, which pulls a vacuum due to recycling part of the potential energy in the glass.

 

If you wanted to form the universe, using a siphon affect, so to speak, we need to use some of the potential energy in the future or tail end of the siphon to get the extra energy needed to get the expansion affect that defies gravity over the hump. In other words, going from BB to later in the expansion is exothermic. Some of this recycled to get the original affect over the hump. The cause comes after to produce an affect, cause and affect. Maybe black holes of the future is the recycle that can defy normal time sequence to get the affect over the hump in the past.

 

If we go back to the siphon before it is primed to recycle energy, cause and affect will never allow all the water in the glass to climb to the height of the siphon hill. This will be called antigravity and look like magic or a new law of physics. This is one of the conceptual problems of the primordial atom due to extreme gravity. It has potential, but how to create anti-gravity or get it to expand up the energy hill. But once we tap into the potential energy already in the glass and recycle part of it (cause and affect is used to create the first affect, we can create the anti-gravity. The original creation could also be an affect, cause and affect due to recycle occurring before t=0 or during negative time. Maybe we can use a black hole siphon, with black holes down the end of the tube.

[questor]

Hydro, you have described events that are totally caused by assembling the apparatus you described and using the natural capillary action of water to cause the effect. Can you think of any effect or condition that does not have a cause?

[questor]

Moon, I agree with you.

[Moontanman]

Moon, I agree with you.

 

Scary isn't it? I would even go so far as to say that if nothing happens there would still be a cause! No effect would still require a cause. I think the real problem with the BB is that the theory doesn't allow for a cause so the people who follow it seriously cannot allow there to be a cause. My stance of everything has a cause even if we can't see or know it, this is not good science but it makes sense to me. Just remember this is not a supernatural explanation, I see much stuff being used to prop up religious BS and it just doesn't make sense to seize on these possibilities and try to interpret them as supporting religion. The BB is often used as supporting religion when in reality it doesn't support anything but the BB.

[questor]

Moon, if the universe was created, it was a unique event as far as we know. It has not happened before or since, as far as we know. If it was created it had a creator which we don't understand. Was it gravity, or some force that we can't envision at this point? Whatever it was, it had the power to create energy, matter, time, light, black holes and everything else in the universe.

Would you expect this power to be intelligent or non-intelligent?

[Moontanman]

Moon, if the universe was created, it was a unique event as far as we know. It has not happened before or since, as far as we know. If it was created it had a creator which we don't understand. Was it gravity, or some force that we can't envision at this point? Whatever it was, it had the power to create energy, matter, time, light, black holes and everything else in the universe.

Would you expect this power to be intelligent or non-intelligent?

 

Now you are twisting ideas to bring in the supernatural, what ever the cause of the universe I would expect it be simply a manifestation of the natural world. Would you call the neutron that caused a fission chain reaction intelligent? No sentient or non sentient life form or power enters into it. The universe was a random event, like radioactive decay, radioactive decay is random and it has a cause but no "power" sentient or other wise is involved.

[questor]

I'm not trying to lead you into a discussion of religion. You'll have admit that the creation of the whole universe was a hell of a project. In was natural but it was also supernatural in that it was such a large and well ordered event. How do you think all the things occurred that had to happen in order for us to have the existing universe? If it all happened in random fashion, maybe there was no cause after all.

[Moontanman]

I'm not trying to lead you into a discussion of religion. You'll have admit that the creation of the whole universe was a hell of a project. In was natural but it was also supernatural in that it was such a large and well ordered event. How do you think all the things occurred that had to happen in order for us to have the existing universe? If it all happened in random fashion, maybe there was no cause after all.

 

You are putting the cart in front of the horse, the coming into being of the universe was not a project anymore than the fission of an uranium 235 atom by a neutron is project and it isn't even necessarily a bigger project at all. the universe looks neat and orderly not because it is but because we think it is. If the universe had been different in even a small way chances are we wouldn't be here to see the order or complexity. We are mated to the universe not the other way around. We exist because of the way the universe is, the universe does not exist because of the way we are. Nothing supernatural about it, the universe is just another event that happens due to the nature of the universe. It is entirely possible that what ever event triggered the universe might have triggered an infinite number of other universes we have no knowledge of, all of them could be just like ours or every one could be different. In any case it wasn't a project, no sentience was involved and the universe appears to favor us because if it was different we wouldn't be here to comment on it's perfection for us.

[HydrogenBond]

The laws of physics, exist even before they come into affect. For example, plasma O and H, before it is anywhere near forming molecular water, will form molecular water when it cools to a certain temperature. This was defined at the beginning of creation even before protons and electrons had formed just due to the way the forces of nature stack up and extrapolate. The blue print of the laws of physics was already there before the universe had evolved to where later things are able to come into affect.

 

So if we start the universe with a random event, how does this random event result in such extrapolated order at the level of physical laws? What would make more sense is random begetting random such that every super nova, for example, could define new laws and a new output in its isolated zone within space. This doesn't happen since the entire universe no matter how spread out uses the same logical extrapolated laws. We can predict what is suppose to happen because the laws were set in motion from the beginning and follow a sequence.

 

In other words, not only does a random event for BB have a very low odds, but this low odds is compounded by the random event somehow also able to randomly provide a high level of logical uniformity for the laws of physics in the entire universe. If these were random everywhere the random event is a little more likely. It makes more sense for an ordered event to create sub-order that was a logical extrapolation of a compact sense of order at the very beginning, stemming from deeper order.

[Moontanman]

No HB you too are putting the cart in front of the horse. there is no reason to think the laws of physics as we know them existed before the big bang or that our laws of physics is the only way they could be. what we see as the laws of physics may very well be the only way they can be and allow us to exist but we don't know anything about what if anything existed before the universe. it could be the universe is a unique one time event never to happen again or it could be that universes as we think of a universe are as common as quarks in our universe and we are simply separated from them by a higher dimension. It could be there is but one universe and it comes and goes in a cycle and most of the time that cycle has laws of physics that do not allow for atoms and stars and galaxies but each time the laws of physics is totally random, has happened before so many times that any and all outcomes are inevitable and after our universe collapses back the next incarnation might be so totally different we wouldn't even recognize it as a universe. it could very well be that most of the time the universe is just a tiny blip that fizzles out quickly and expands again and again before chancing on physical laws that allow another large scale universe to happen. We don't know and at this point cannot know.