Proposed developing of social evolution theory

[Cedars]

Assuming you are serious about all that, then all I can say is that you do not see the world about you except as a meme process. We have no real means to communicate.

 

It seems no one will take up my proposal or challenge. May be I'll see you in another thread . . .

 

What a bizarre response...

 

I introduced biologic foundations and you protested. Note I held back on posting links to orangutan, chimp and dolphin 'cultures' to try to move the thread to something more acceptable to what you were trying to communicate.

 

Now you accuse me of only seeing the world about me as a meme process. Sorry charles but I find the whole meme concept as making things more complicated than reasonable, when biologic functions explain these quite well. See comment on snakes hibernation, purely reptilian brains at work there.

 

This after you post:

If it does not make sense to you, let me know why. I would be happy to discuss that too.

 

When announcing a challenge, it is expected to meet up with others who do not share, or do not understand the challenge being presented. It falls upon the proposer of such a challenge to defend its position.

 

Its too bad that you chose to quit rather than defend/enhance your position.

[HydrogenBond]

The main component of social evolution is connected to irrationality. Most traditions within any culture have no logical reason. They may have an explanation and a historical beginning, but there is no logic reason Santa Claus should come from the north pole. The whole thing is symbolic and is talking to the irrational or unconscious side of humans. This is what gives the symbolism the energy to survive and motivate. Once you begin to rationalize this tradition, it starts to die because the reasoning takes away the unconscious connection and energy. Science books on the best seller list recruit emotion as well as logic, with better emotional appeal usually a better seller.

 

Part of the value of emotional appeal is it connects culture to the ancient parts of the human psyche which are closer to the genetic part of evolution. Before culture, when change was slow and more at pace with genetics emotion was keeping pace. Culture made a separation able to evolve faster than genetics. The connection to emotion assure proper genetic alignment.

 

This connection assures decline in unnatural alignment and therefore continued changes. This affect can be seen with the fall fashions. The emotional appeal herds the culture into a direction of excitement and motivation. This is irrational even if we can rationalize it so we look less irrational. These fashions have a clock built in that will shut off the emotional appeal at winter fashions. Next, year, the old clothes have expired, even if they are not really worn out. There is no logical reason for this this in terms of practical logic. It is depends on emotion, which people can rationalize so it looks less irrational. This doesn't align with natural which is why it wears out. A natural purpose of clothes is to shelter the body from the environment, with the old clothes still able to do this.

 

Relative to culture, to fight the decline in terms of a change in cultural clothing (tradition), that are natural and don't just spontaneously decay, one also needs irrational emotion. A new replacement cultural tradition gives an emotion that motivates in a forward direction, even if it recycles the past. The fixed tradition will try to fight the change, since the emotion isn't worn out yet but still can motivate. The defense gets double emotion of still being motivated while also defensive emotion. This will assure change goes slow so natural is not replaced by unnatural. That can still happen but will expire on its own.

 

For example, why not have Santa Claus live in the south pole? This is possible in light of advances in sled technology and GPS. He can still get the job done. This proposal would motivate some irrationally, but it would also lead to a larger counter emotion that will fight the change in the tradition with the double dose of irrational. They have the double emotion which would make it hard to change the irrational. This has lingered because it seems to align with natural emotion.

 

Human emotion is very ancient and may have been there when genetics and tribal was at the same pace. With culture genetics are not keeping pace with the speed of culture. Emotion has this conservative nature make sure change aligns with genetics. The unconscious mind stays aligned with nature while the conscious mind can go anyway including unnatural. Natural changes will align better and will last longer while unnatural is usually faddish. Religion has lasted so long because it appears to align with the emotions and genetics. Religion is not rational but is based on faith which is irrational. This irrational is very conservative and may actually have genetic alignment. Culture decline naturally when they become too unnatural. The decay in emotion causes the culture to become disrupted.

[JulianKeller]

I propose a thought experiment.

 

 

An early man is born, how would his life continue from birth in the social hierachies of the caveman world, to his death of either old age or viral infection?

 

Plz right a view and more than one person is more than welcome to do so because well I am just going as far back as I can think of. To me Social evolution evolved from the basic instinct to form protective groups which is either encoded in our genes or from our ancestor's early obversation which was handed down to us thru child rearing.

 

 

I also propose this thought experiment based on the earlier.

 

In today's society in whatever country the person is performing this thought experiment in, A child is born, male, how would his life continue from birth in today's world till he is near death.

 

 

Weird offtopic question, can cannibalism cause genetic variation? and can cannibalism of someone with genetically varianted material due to abnormal birth or some other affect be obtained by the Cannibal and passed to his/her children?

[Cedars]

The main component of social evolution is connected to irrationality. Most traditions within any culture have no logical reason. They may have an explanation and a historical beginning, but there is no logic reason Santa Claus should come from the north pole. The whole thing is symbolic and is talking to the irrational or unconscious side of humans.

I agree that its symbolic, however I dont know that its connected to irrationality. I always understood the whole st. nick, winter presents tradition, as being wrapped around the winter solstice and the promise of spring/renewal. The cold of winter, for the northern latitudes is best represented by the north, where the south winds bring warmth and spring, and st. nick/santa a representation of the hunter(s) bringing back the food to the family/clan/tribe (or the fight against the dark/cold). The promise of better days to come, the gods have not forgotten us and fight for us in the dark in places we cannot see, during the deepest darkest hours of the year. Fighting the fear within the clan so to speak.

Part of the value of emotional appeal is it connects culture to the ancient parts of the human psyche which are closer to the genetic part of evolution. Before culture, when change was slow and more at pace with genetics emotion was keeping pace. Culture made a separation able to evolve faster than genetics. The connection to emotion assure proper genetic alignment.

Heres where we kinda diverge. The changes in the past were slower due to higher mortality/lower survival rates. The chance of positive mutation/evolution surviving to spread through the gene pool was limited by this. You had to live long enough to be a hunter to figure out how a spear works and then you might be able to adjust the manufacture process to enhance your (tribes) hunting sucess. You had to live long enough to become married and have your own plot of ground to experiment with growing, otherwise you did what your mother told you to do in the field.

 

All of the human psyche is based in genetics. There is a nurture portion which defines the display expression (brightly colored feathers/sharpened spears) of 'culture/sociatal' aspects of this power. Whether the display of power is wrapped around the basics of alpha male (hunter/protector) or alpha female (provider/fertility) or both depends on the target market for the goods (gods, warriors, potential mates, etc)

This connection assures decline in unnatural alignment and therefore continued changes. This affect can be seen with the fall fashions. The emotional appeal herds the culture into a direction of excitement and motivation. This is irrational even if we can rationalize it so we look less irrational. These fashions have a clock built in that will shut off the emotional appeal at winter fashions. Next, year, the old clothes have expired, even if they are not really worn out. There is no logical reason for this this in terms of practical logic. It is depends on emotion, which people can rationalize so it looks less irrational. This doesn't align with natural which is why it wears out. A natural purpose of clothes is to shelter the body from the environment, with the old clothes still able to do this.

This is an interesting example. Fall and spring fashions are directly connected to spring/fall equinox, a very ancient clock. Wrap that around the mating rituals and you are back to very basic drives in all animals, including humans. Bright colors of spring, bright colors of birds in spring (mating season), drab colors of fall, drab colors of birds (changed environment), with birds as one example.

 

Human emotion is very ancient and may have been there when genetics and tribal was at the same pace. With culture genetics are not keeping pace with the speed of culture. Emotion has this conservative nature make sure change aligns with genetics. The unconscious mind stays aligned with nature while the conscious mind can go anyway including unnatural. Natural changes will align better and will last longer while unnatural is usually faddish. Religion has lasted so long because it appears to align with the emotions and genetics. Religion is not rational but is based on faith which is irrational. This irrational is very conservative and may actually have genetic alignment. Culture decline naturally when they become too unnatural. The decay in emotion causes the culture to become disrupted.

See, for me this line of reasoning is reversed from the actual process occuring. Humans evolved first (and this evolution is rapid and increasing speed at the present time) and culture has followed that evolution. It is culture that is lagging behind and not declining as a whole but expanding. There have been bumps in this road (the dark ages for example) but what has come out of these relatively short bumps has been expansion of culture/society for a longer duration of time.

 

Orangutans:

 

"Also, we found the biggest behavioral repertoires within sites that showed the most social contact, thus giving the animals the greatest opportunity to learn from one another," he said. According to van Schaik, the discovery of cultural transmission in orangutans has implications for understanding the process in humans.

 

Evidence for orangutan culture( DURHAM N.C. -- An international collab...)

 

Dolphins and sponges:

 

"A comparison of their nuclear DNA showed that the spongers were closely related, suggesting that spongers are descendants of a recent “Sponging Eve”. However, the pattern of sponging among the dolphins could not be explained by a “gene for sponging” - the trait’s pattern of inheritance just did not fit.

 

The researchers conclude that the behaviour is culturally transmitted, presumably by mothers teaching the skills to their sons and daughters, although they have not actually observed this feat in action."

 

Dolphins teach their children to use sponges - life - 06 June 2005 - New Scientist

 

Personally, I have a slight quarrel with announcing such things as "cultural". What it shows is a particular animal groups ability to learn from observation and abstract thought somewhere in the line. Additionally, my own observations, and the reading of others observations, reflect many orders throughout the animal kingdom as being capable of such feats, including but not limited to, bilingual capabilities, awareness of death, grief process, and a host of other formerly human only attributes to separate us from them. Examples include chickadees (and other birds) responding to the predator calls of other animals, including chimpunk and squirrel predator announcements, Blue jays mimicing hawk calls to clear the bird feeder for themselves, raccoons (and especially fox) responding to calls of the other species (seeing reaction extremes such as being attracted to food announcements, and leaving a scene due to other animals baby distress calls to avoid blame/attack), and bears learning new fish hunting methods by observation, etc.

[HydrogenBond]

Getting back to culture and irrational, I didn't mean this in a negative way but equate irrational with the unconscious mind, which should be better connected to the genetics, since it is a natural feature of the brain. For example, the impulse to breed is unconsciously hardwired in the brain. What the conscious mind does with this impulse can be both natural and unnatural since we have free will. The impulse is directly wired from the genetics, while willpower can stay natural or go into synthetic.

 

Culture is in the middle sort of a bridge between natural-genetic and the human imagination and will which can go beyond natural in both directions. One way is still connected, but for advancement. The other can be unnatural and have no real connection to anything that is natural to the genetics.

 

Because emotion is older than reason, emotion should be closer to the genetic aspect. Emotion is irrational. The entire brain system has feed up from the genetics and unconscious mind (such as emotion) and feedback from the human will and imagination. The cultures that last, stay more grounded in the genetics. If you break that connection there is no natural or primal instinct that has been evolved into the genetics which integrates nature, people and genetics. Such a culture is more vulnerable to self extinction because it is not part of nature. Based on rise and fall of great cultures, apart from war, we can sort of deduce naturally grounded and unnaturally detached.

 

If you look at all the languages of the earth, there are dozens of sounds for the word dog. During the formation of any language there is no logical reason to pick one noise-visual association over another. We could call it aauuggggo, as long as we all agree. Once that is defined, it won't be easy to change oars in midstream. We can add more variety of noises for further distinctions but normally you don't lose the original. What is important is only that a sound-visual connection be made. This is the natural or logical connection to the genetic capability of the brain. Beyond that, we can be creative and use any noises to define the language that will connect the culture. This is the irrational connection that helps to bind the culture. My language is better, is irrational but at a deeper instinctive level since that language makes the required genetic audio-visual connection it is also felt very deeply as logical, which it is at that deep level. Languages can last because they have that basic root.