Infinite Universe Or Not?

[Little Bang]

Wouldn't an infinite universe eventually clump into all black holes and given infinite time why hasn't it already happened? I also find an accelerating expansion unsatisfactory because I am unsure about our understanding of all the factors involved in the cause of red shift. If any of those factors are wrong then it also makes our estimates of the distance to the standard candles wrong. This in turn would make our statement that the accelerating expansion of the universe wrong. I am not saying that it is wrong, only that there is room for questions.

[TIC]

We are only aware

 

A few hundred years ago "we" were aware the world was flat

A few hundred years before that, the Earth was the center of the universe

And so it goes

 

Infinity is a human concept without definition. But seems to be very big.

 

All we know, is as far as we can look today

 

We could eaily be a life form in a small blob of snot.

 

Infinity is fun.

[C1ay]

Wouldn't an infinite universe eventually clump into all black holes and given infinite time why hasn't it already happened?

 

Maybe it has. What if black holes eventually get to a point like a dying star and have the equivalent of a black hole supernova? What if a super black hole supernova is actually a big bang that creates a new, local distribution of matter? If the Universe is infinite, I don't think we can extrapolate anything about what would happen to the totality of its matter in an infinite amount of time. IMO, the possibilities are infinite.

[Michaelangelica]

All serious cosmologists, amateur and pro, care. It's not about how I or humanity can use the information... or even "prove it." It is the fundamental spirit of inquiry into the true nature of the whole ball-o-wax, the universe.

Michael

Does anyone really care about what they care about?

[modest]

I also find an accelerating expansion unsatisfactory because I am unsure about our understanding of all the factors involved in the cause of red shift. If any of those factors are wrong then it also makes our estimates of the distance to the standard candles wrong.

 

Standard candles test redshift distances rather than relying on them. If we know how bright a supernova should be if it is nearby then we should know how bright it should be when it's far away because things get dimmer the further away they are at a predictable rate. By testing the redshift and brightness and time dilation of a supernova, astronomers have multiple variables agreeing with each other.

 

~modest

[Little Bang]

Modest, I'm not questioning our ability to determine high far away an object is based on it's brightness. What I wonder about is our ability to measure how far are close super novas. Don't we use red shift to make that determination?

[modest]

Modest, I'm not questioning our ability to determine high far away an object is based on it's brightness. What I wonder about is our ability to measure how far are close super novas. Don't we use red shift to make that determination?

 

No.

 

But, there hasn't been a really close, observed, supernova (in our galaxy) in quite some time (1680, I think). For accurate standard candles in our own galaxy out to about 20 megaparsecs, astronomers use cepheid variables. They are far more prevalent than type 1a supernova. There is some overlap between cepheids and supernova, for example the virgo cluster distance has been found with both.

 

But, what I'm trying to say is that standard candles measure distance without the need for redshift at all. The idea is to look at how bright something appears and apply the inverse square distance law of brightness. That's what a standard candle is. Redshift is then separate data which agrees with (but doesn't rely on) the standard candle.

 

~modest

[Pluto]

G'day from the land of ozzzzz

 

The youngest supernova in the Milky Way

 

The youngest supernova in the Milky Way - Cosmology - Zimbio

 

Youngest galactic supernova (not aliens) found | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine

 

After searching for literally decades, astronomers have found a supernova in our galaxy! ... It’s located very near the center of the galaxy, about 28,000 light years away, and it’s only at most about 140 years old

[Michael Mooney]

Hi Essay,

If you celebrate Christmas, I hope you are having a good one. (Going well here with gathered family.)

Essay:

M~Mooney,

I care about future generations having the leisure and the capabilities to care about cosmology and evolution.

So do I.

 

If we don't turn this planet in a sustainable direction, I will be sad that those future generations won't have the leisure time or facilities or coordination to care about cosmology or evolution--they'll be struggling for survival (caring for evolution and cosmology/religion from a very subjective position only).

Agreed. But it's not "either/or" but "both (cosmology) and (sustainable ecology.)"

 

I care for cosmology and evolution objectively, because they force us to use science to discover the complexities of the world.

 

And yet "Man's reach must exceed his grasp, or what is heaven (cosmology) for?

(Forgot author.)

 

I think this is a good thing because understanding that complexity is what will allow us to evolve into a Type I civilization. We don't have much time and if you've got a great IQ, I don't understand why you don't apply it to helping with real current problems of economics, environment, and education.

...or did I ask you this already?

 

It is actually quite presumptuous of you to assume that I am *not* "applying it" to practical problems.

I am active in many areas. (See "polymath.")On local scale, for instance I am First Trustee of an 80 acre land trust upon which we are building intentional, sustainable, "green" (in harmony with nature) community. One of my sons, living here, (an engineer in appropriate technology) is developing the "hydrogen assist" technology for all our community vehicles (and is a master gardener.) There are many more possible examples... but you get the picture.

I am passionate about the ontology of space and time and cosmology in general, but it is not my only interest.

 

Merry Christmas! (Or whatever.)

Michael

[Essay]

Thank you Michael, ...and to you too--a Merry Christmas and Happy Solstice!

Dinner is done, the kids are bored with stories of Christmas's Past, ...I broke the Cookie Jar :( and there was just enough screaming to make the holiday memorable for everyone; but we're all sitting around now--fat, dumb, and happy! (as my dear old Dad used to say). :)

 

And thanks for your gift--sharing that enticing vision of a sustainable community...

...and reminding me that people do have lives outside of the forum also, :)

...and that blogging on the web probably shouldn't count :D as "applying it."

 

Maybe we will hear about some of that neat land-use and hydrogen stuff as the Spring and Summer progress?

But I have to admit, there's not much that is more satisfying than a rich, rewarding view of cosmology.

...even as we know "There Are More Things in Heaven and Earth Than Are Dreamt of...."

 

~S

ad infinitum

[Pluto]

G'day from the land of ozzzzzzz

 

C1ay said

 

Maybe it has. What if black holes eventually get to a point like a dying star and have the equivalent of a black hole supernova? What if a super black hole supernova is actually a big bang that creates a new, local distribution of matter? If the Universe is infinite, I don't think we can extrapolate anything about what would happen to the totality of its matter in an infinite amount of time. IMO, the possibilities are infinite.

 

"What If" Two powerful words.

 

Maybe this link answers your "What If"

 

[astro-ph/0703265] Formation of relativistic jets by collapsing stars to black holes

Formation of relativistic jets by collapsing stars to black holes

 

Authors: V. Kryvdyk (Dept Astronomy, Taras Shevchenko National University of Kyiv, Ukraine)

(Submitted on 12 Mar 2007)

 

Abstract: Formation of relativistic jets in the magnetosphere of collapsing stars is considered. These jets will be formed in the polar caps of magnetosphere of collapsing star, where the stellar magnetic field increases during the collapse and the charged particles are accelerated. The jets will generate non-thermal radiation. The analysis of dynamics and emission of particles in the stellar magnetosphere under collapse shows that collapsing stars can by powerful sources of relativistic jets.

[Michaelangelica]

Once you accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.

[Pluto]

G'day from the land of ozzzzz

 

Michael said

 

Once you accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.

 

Expansion is related to timespace and not to actual distances.

 

as for the easy part.

 

I read through hundreds of papers and you would think that I'm getting to know the universe. The opposite has happened, I now know how little we know.

 

 

Not so easy.

[Michaelangelica]

I read through hundreds of papers and you would think that I'm getting to know the universe. The opposite has happened, I now know how little we know.

Not so easy.

I think this happens when you study, almost anything, in depth

The more you know, the more you realise how little you know.

[Pluto]

G'day Michael

 

You hit the nail on the head.

[Michael Mooney]

C1ay said:

Maybe it has. What if black holes eventually get to a point like a dying star and have the equivalent of a black hole supernova? What if a super black hole supernova is actually a big bang that creates a new, local distribution of matter? If the Universe is infinite, I don't think we can extrapolate anything about what would happen to the totality of its matter in an infinite amount of time. IMO, the possibilities are infinite.

C1ay,

We seem to be theorizing along similar cosmological lines.

Somewhere in my "Spacetime" thread (and many times in years of such sharing in many different venues (including other forums) I have shared similar "visions.'

 

Maybe this belongs in the "origin of the universe" thread, but...

 

My "vision" of "the big bang/crunch" is actually more like a 'cosmic juggling act' of many bangs and many crunches with many "launches" and many "crunches" ... expanding shells like supernova remnants (SNR) "going out" and shells of imploding matter "incoming" via gravitational return simultaneously.

 

I have long been fascinated by supernovae phenomena and more recently by the discovery that all maturing galaxies (with a central bulge) have super massive black holes (SMBH) at their centers, pulling "stuff" in (now seen via infra-red imaging)

Then there is the possibility that after each SMBH has eaten up its surrounding galaxy that it explodes (supernova-wise or neutron star/pulsar-wise) either "jetting out" from its axis material for a new galaxy or simply exploding like like a colossal fireworks display into a spherical shell of new building materials... in either case, the ultimate galactic recycling.

So likewise, with enough smaller "bangs" to make the physics possible and enough smaller "crunches" to feed the perpetual process of "bangs"...

Quite the ultimate "juggling act!"

 

Then there is the limit of our cosmic event horizon, which means that our visible cosmos might just be one small sphere of visibility *within* the membrane of a greater cosmic "balloon" expanding out from a WAY BIGGER bang... of unknown dynamics!... all of which may eventually return to the scene of the original Big Balloon before it began to "inflate."

 

Well... food for thought if nothing else.

Good night.

Michael

[Pluto]

G'day Michael

 

Jets are jets regardless where they come from, star, Neutron stars, Quark stars or the ultra dense black holes. All of them create jets that eject matter away. The size of the jet is directly related to the mass and type of matter.

 

Small jets

eg: When magnetic field tangle as they collide near a sun spot.

Sunspots: Activity 1 of 2

 

Larger jets created within the solar envelope and larger that involve the core of the Sun.

NASA - Solar Flare Surprise

 

NASA - 'Focused' Solar Explosions Get Hotter

 

A Jet is a Jet, Big or Small: Scale Invariance of Black Hole Jets

A Jet is a Jet, Big or Small: Scale Invariance of Black Hole Jets

 

Than you get even larger with Neutron stars

 

The energetic stellar jet of HH (Herbig Haro) 49/50, as seen through the Spitzer Space Teles

A "Tornado" in Space

 

 

 

Than jets from black holes that are so big that they can alter the form of their own galaxy and also the form of other galaxies and cluster of galaxies.

 

Galactic Black Hole Fires a Jet at a Nearby Neighbour

Galactic Black Hole Fires a Jet at a Nearby Neighbour | Universe Today

 

Composite X-ray (blue) and radio (pink) image of the galaxy cluster Abell 400.

Credit: X-ray: NASA/CXC/AIfA/D.Hudson & T.Reiprich et al.; Radio: NRAO/VLA/NRL

Two "Black Holes"?

 

 

Nice jet movies

Chandra :: Photo Album :: XTE J1550-564 :: Time-Lapse Movies of XTE J1550-564

 

Images of 3C438 and Surrounding Galaxy Cluster

Chandra :: Photo Album :: 3C438 :: 3C438 Animations

 

 

 

Jets of matter have been discovered around a very low mass 'failed star', mimicking a process seen in young stars. This suggests that these 'brown dwarfs' form in a similar manner to normal stars but also that outflows are driven out by objects as massive as hundreds of millions of solar masses down to Jupiter-sized objects.

A brown dwarf joins the jet-set

Chandra Press Room :: Chandra Captures Flare From Brown Dwarf :: July 11, 2000

 

Cosmic Blasts Much More Common, Astronomers Discover

Chandra Press Room :: Cosmic Blasts Much More Common, Astronomers Discover :: August 30, 2006

 

When A Neutron Star Acts Like A Comet

Image of the Day : When A Neutron Star Acts Like A Comet

 

 

Neutron Star Born Instead of Black Hole

JYI.org :: Neutron Star Born Instead of Black Hole

05 November 2005 - The collapse of a massive star produced a neutron star instead of a black hole, surprising astrophysicists, who reported the find in the November edition of Astrophysical Journal Letters.

 

The discovery indicates that black holes are not as easily made in nature as once thought. Astronomers have yet to figure out the exact conditions required for a massive star to form a black hole versus a neutron star.

 

 

Massive neutron star rules out exotic matter

Massive neutron star rules out exotic matter - space - 28 June 2006 - New Scientist

Exotic states of matter such as free quarks do not arise inside neutron stars, according to a new analysis of one of the super-dense stellar corpses. The result contradicts previous theories and offers an unprecedented view into the behaviour of matter under extreme pressure.

 

 

I was looking for the movie with the magnetic fields tangling and producing a jet.

 

If I find it I will post it.